Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth

Welcome to Infoshop News
Tuesday, February 09 2010 @ 09:28 PM UTC

Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism

Anarchist OpinionOver the last decade a generalized critique of civilization has been made by a number of authors, mostly based in the USA. Some of these have chosen to identify as anarchists although the more general self-identification is primitivist. There overall argument is that 'civilisation' itself is the problem that results in our failure to live rewarding lives. The struggle for change is thus a struggle against civilization and for an earth where technology has been eliminated.

Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism

Over the last decade a generalized critique of civilization has been made by a number of authors, mostly based in the USA. Some of these have chosen to identify as anarchists although the more general self-identification is primitivist. There overall argument is that 'civilisation' itself is the problem that results in our failure to live rewarding lives. The struggle for change is thus a struggle against civilization and for an earth where technology has been eliminated.

This is an interesting argument that has some merits as an intellectual exercise. But the problem is that some of its adherents have used primitivism as a base from which to attack all other proposals for changing society. Facing this challenge anarchists need to first look to see if primitivism offers any sort of realistic alternative to the world as it is.

Our starting point is that the expression 'life is hard' can always receive the reply that 'it is better than the alternative'. This provides a good general test of all critiques of the world 'as it is', including anarchism. Which is to ask if a better alternative is possible?

Even if we can't point to the 'better alternative', critiques of the world 'as it is' can have a certain intellectual value. But after the disaster of the 20th century when so-called alternatives like Leninism created long lasting dictatorships that killed millions, the question 'is your alternative any better then what exists?' has to be put to anyone advocating change.

The primitivist critique of anarchism is based around the claim to have discovered a contradiction between liberty and mass society. In other words they see it as impossible for any society that involves groups much larger than a village to be a free society. If this was true it would make the anarchist proposal of a world of 'free federations of towns, cities and countryside' impossible. Such federations and population centers are obviously a form of mass society/civilisation.

However the anarchist movement has been answering this very so-called contradiction since its origins. Back in the 19th century liberal defenders of the state pointed to such a contradiction in order to justify the need for one set of men to rule over another. Michael Bakunin answered this in 1871 in his essay on 'The Paris Commune and the Idea of the State"[1].

"It is said that the harmony and universal solidarity of individuals with society can never be attained in practice because their interests, being antagonistic, can never be reconciled. To this objection I reply that if these interest have never as yet come to mutual accord, it was because the State has sacrificed the interests of the majority for the benefit of a privileged minority. That is why this famous incompatibility, this conflict of personal interests with those of society, is nothing but a fraud, a political lie, born of the theological lie which invented the doctrine of original sin in order to dishonor man and destroy his self-respect. .... We are convinced that all the wealth of man's intellectual, moral, and material development, as well as his apparent independence, is the product of his life in society. Outside society, not only would he not be a free man, he would not even become genuinely human, a being conscious of himself, the only being who thinks and speaks. Only the combination of intelligence and collective labor was able to force man out of that savage and brutish state which constituted his original nature, or rather the starting point for his further development. We are profoundly convinced that the entire life of men - their interests, tendencies, needs, illusions, even stupidities, as well as every bit of violence, injustice, and seemingly voluntary activity - merely represent the result of inevitable societal forces. People cannot reject the idea of mutual independence, nor can they deny the reciprocal influence and uniformity exhibiting the manifestations of external nature."

You can download this essay as a PDF file to print out and if you wish distribute.
Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism

What level of technology

Most primitivists evade the question of what level of technology they wish to return to by hiding behind the claim that they are not arguing for a return to anything, on the contrary they want to go forward. With that in mind a reasonable summary of their position is that certain technologies are acceptable up to the level of small village society sustained by hunting and gathering. The problems for primitivists start with the development of agriculture and mass society.

Of course civilization is a rather general term, as is technology. Few of these primitivists have taken this argument to its logical conclusion. One who has is John Zerzan who identifies the root of the problem in the evolution of language and abstract thought. This is a logical end point for the primitivist rejection of mass society.

For the purposes of this article I'm taking as a starting point that the form of future society that primitivists argue for would be broadly similar in technological terms to that which existed around 12,000 years ago on earth, at the dawn of the agricultural revolution. By this I do not claim that they want to 'go back', something that is in any case impossible. But rather that if you seek to go forward by getting rid of all the technology of the agricultural revolution and beyond what results will look quite like pre-agricultural societies of 10,000 BC. As this is the only example we have of such a society in operation it seems reasonable to use it to evaluate the primitivist claims.

A question of numbers

Hunter-gatherers live off the food they can hunt or gather, hence the name. Animals can be hunted or trapped while fruits, nuts, greens and roots are gathered. Before about 12,000 years ago every human on the planet lived as a hunter-gatherer. Today only a tiny number of people do, in isolated and marginal regions of the planet including deserts, artic tundra and jungle. Some of these groups like the Acre have only had contact with the rest of the planet in recent decades(2), others like the Inuit(3) have had contact for long periods of time and so have adopted technologies beyond those developed locally. These latter groups are very much part of the global civilization and have contributed to the development of new technologies in this civilization.

In marginal ecosystems hunter-gathering often represents the only feasible way of producing food. The desert is too dry for sustained agriculture and the arctic too cold. The only other possibility is pastoralism, the reliance on semi-domesticated animals as a food source. For instance in the Scandinavian arctic the Sami(4) control the movement of huge reindeer herds to provide a regular food source.

Hunter-gatherers survive on the food they hunt and gather. This requires very low population densities as population growth is limited by the need to avoid over hunting. Too much gathering of food plants can also serve to reduce the number of plants that are available in the future. This is the core problem with the primitivist idea that the whole planet could live as hunter-gatherers: there is not nearly enough food produced in natural ecosystems for even a fraction of the current population of the world to do so.

It should be obvious that the amount of calories available to humans as food in an acre of oak forest will be a lot lower then the amount of calories available to humans in an acre of corn. Agriculture provides far, far more useful calories per acre than hunter gathering in the same acre would. That is because we have spent 12,000 years selecting plants and improving agricultural techniques so that per acre we cram in lots of productive plants that put their energy into producing plant parts that are food for us rather then plant parts that are not food for us. Compare any cultivated grain with its wild relative and you will see an illustration of this, the cultivated form will have much bigger grains and a much larger proportion of grain to stalk and foliage. We have chosen plants that produce a high ratio of edible biomass.

In other words a pine tree may be as good or better then a lettuce at capturing the solar energy that falls on it. But with the lettuce a huge percentage of the captured energy goes into food (around 75%). With pine tree none of the energy produces food we can eat. Compare the amount of food to be found in a nearby woodland with the amount you can grow in a couple of square meters of garden cultivated in even an organic low energy fashion and you'll see why agriculture is a must have for the population of the planet. An acre of organically grown potato can yield 15,000 lbs of food(5). A a square that is 70 yards wide and 70 yards long measures just over an acre.

The estimated population of human on the earth before the advent of agriculture (10,000 BC) varies with some estimates as low as 250,000 (6) Other estimates for the pre-agricultural hunter gather population are more generous, in the range of 6 to 10 million.(7). The earth's current population is nearing 6,000 million.

This 6,000 million are almost all supported by agriculture. They could not be supported by hunter gathering, indeed it is suggested that even the 10 million hunter gathers who may have existed before agriculture may have been a non sustainable number. Evidence for this can be seen in the Pleistocene overkill(8), a period from 12,000 to 10,000 BC in which 200 genera of large mammals went extinct. In the Americas in this period over 80% of the population of large mammals became extinct.(9) That this was due to over hunting is one controversial hypothesis. If correct than the advent of agriculture (and civilisation) may even have then due to the absence of large game which forced hunter gathers to 'settle down' and find other ways of obtaining food.

Certainly in recorded history the same over hunting has been observed with the arrival of man on isolated Polynesian islands. Over hunting caused the extinction of the Dodo in Mauretania and the Moa in New Zealand not to mention many less famous species.

Living in the bog in winter

Another way of looking at the fact that primitivism cannot support all of the people of the planet is more anecdotal and uses Ireland (where I live) as an example. Left to itself the Irish countryside would consist mostly of mature oak forest with some hazel scrub and bogs. Go into an oak forest and see how much food you can gather - if you know your stuff there is some. Acorns, fruit on brambles in clearings, some wild garlic, strawberries, edible fungi, wild honey, and the meat from animals like deer, squirrel, wild goat and pigeon that can be hunted. But this is many, many, many fewer calories then the same area cultivated as wheat or potatoes would yield. There is simply not enough land in Ireland to support 5 million, the current population of the island, as hunter gatherers.

Typically hunter gathers live at a population density of 1 per 10 square km. (Ireland's present population density is around 500 per 10 square km or 500 times this). By extending this standard calculation from elsewhere on the planet the number that could be supported in Ireland would be less then 70,000. Probably a lot less as only 20% of Ireland is arable land. Blanket bog or Burren karst provide little in the way of food useful for humans. In winter there would be very little food to be gathered (perhaps small caches of nuts hidden by squirrels and some wild honey) and that even 70,000 people living off hunting would eradicate the large mammals (deer, wild goat) very quickly. The coastal areas and larger rivers and lakes would be the main source of hunting and some gathering in the form of shellfish and edible seaweed.

But being generous and assuming that somehow Ireland could sustain 70,000 hunter gatherers we discover we need to 'reduce' the population by some 4,930,000. Or 98.6%. The actual archaeological estimates for the population of Ireland before the arrival of agriculture is around 7,000 people.

The idea that a certain amount of land can support a certain amount of people according to how it is (or in this case is not) cultivated is referred to as its 'carrying capacity'. This can be estimated for the earth as a whole. One modern calculation for hunter gathers actually give you 100 million as the maximum figure but just how much of a maximum this is becomes clear when you realize that using similar methods gives 30 billion as the maximum farming figure.(10) That would be six times the world's current population!

But let's take this figure of 100 million as the maximum rather then the historical maximum of 10 million. This is generous estimate, well above that of those primitivists who have dared to address this issue. For instance Miss Ann Thropy writing in the US Earth First! magazine estimated, "Ecotopia would be a planet with about 50 million people who are hunting and gathering for subsistence." (11)

The earth's population today is around 6000 million. A return to a 'primitive' earth therefore requires that some 5900 million people disappear. Something has to happen to 98% of the world's population in order for the 100 million survivors to have even the slightest hope of a sustainable primitive utopia.

Dirty tricks?

At this point some primitivist writers like John Moore cry foul, dismissing the suggestion "that the population levels envisaged by anarcho-primitivists would have to be achieved by mass die-offs or nazi-style death camps. These are just smear tactics. The commitment of anarcho-primitivists to the abolition of all power relations, including the State with all its administrative and military apparatus, and any kind of party or organization, means that such orchestrated slaughter remains an impossibility as well as just plain horrendous."(12)

The problem for John is that these 'smear tactics' are based not only on the logical requirements of a primitivist world but are also explicitly acknowledged by other primitivists. Miss Ann Thropy's 50 million has already been quoted. Another primitivist FAQ claims "Drastic population reductions are going to happen whether we do it voluntarily or not. It would be better, for obvious reasons to do all this gradually and voluntarily, but if we don't the human population is going to be cut anyway."(13)

The Coalition Against Civilization write "We need to be realistic about what would happen were we to enter a post-civilized world. One basic write-off is that a lot of people would die upon civil collapse. While being a hard thing to argue to a moralistic person, we shouldn't pretend this wouldn't be the case"(14)

More recently Derrick Jensen in an interview from Issue #6 of The 'A' Word Magazine[15] said civilization "needs to be actively fought against, but I don't think that we can bring it down. What we can do is assist the natural world to bring it down..... I want civilization brought down and I want it brought down now." We have seen above what the consequences of 'bringing down' civilization are.

In short there is no shortage of primitivists who recognize that the primitive world they desire would require "mass die-offs". I've not come across any who advocate "nazi-style death camps" but perhaps John just threw this in to muddy the water. Primitivists like John Moore can therefore refuse to confront this question of die off by upping the emotional ante and by accusing those who point the need for die-off out as carrying out 'smear tactics'. It's up to him to either explain how 6 billion can be fed or to admit that primitivism is no more then an intellectual mind game.

My expectation is that just about everyone when confronted with this requirement of mass death will conclude that 'primitivism' offers nothing to fight for. A very few, like the survivalists confronted by the threat of nuclear war in the 1980's, might conclude that all this is inevitable and start planning how their loved ones will survive when others die. But this later group has moved far, far beyond any understanding of anarchism as I understand it. So the 'anarcho' prefix such primitivists try to claim has to be rejected.

Most primitivists run away from the requirement for mass death in one of two ways. The more cuddly ones decide that primitivism is not a program for a different way of running the world. Rather it exists as a critique of civilization and not an alternative to it. This is fair enough and there is a value in re-examining the basic assumptions of civilization . But in that case primitivism is no substitute for the anarchist struggle for liberation, which involves adopting technology to our needs rather then rejecting it. The problem is that primitivists like to attack the very methods of mass organization that are necessary for overthrowing capitalism. Reasonable enough if you believe you have an alternative to anarchism but rather damaging if all you have is an interesting critique!

Other primitivists however take the Cassandra path, telling us they are merely prophets of an inevitable doom. They don't desire the death of 5,900 million they just point out it cannot be prevented. This is worth examing in some detail precisely because it is so disempowering. What after all is the use of fighting for a fair society today if tomorrow or the day after 98% of us are going to die and everything we have built crumble to dust?

Are we all doomed?

Primitivists are not the only ones to use the rhetoric of catastrophe to panic people into accepting their political proposals. Reformists such as George Monbiot, use similar 'we are all doomed' arguments to try and stampede people into support for reformism and world government. In the last decades acceptance that the world is somehow doomed has become part of mainstream culture, first as the cold war and then as looming environmental disaster. George Bush and Tony Blair created a panic over Weapons of Mass Destruction to give cover to their invasion of Iraq. The need to examine and dismantle such panics is clear.

The most convincing form the 'end of civilisation' panic takes is the idea of a looming resource crisis that will make life as we know it impossible. And the best resource to focus on for those who wish to make this argument is oil. Everything we produce, including food, is dependant on massive energy inputs and 40% of the worlds energy use is generated from oil.

The primitivist version of this argument goes something like this, 'everyone knows that in X number of year the oil will run out, this will mean civilization will grind to a halt, and this will mean lots of people will die. So we might as well embrace the inevitable'. The oil running out argument is the primitivist equivalent of the orthodox Marxist 'final economic crisis that results in the overthrow of capitalism'. And, just like the orthodox Marxists, primitivists always argue this final crisis is always just around the corner.

When looked at in any detail this argument evaporates and it becomes clear that neither capitalism nor civilization face a final crisis because of the oil running out. This is not because oil supplies are inexhaustible, indeed we may be reaching the peak of oil production today in 1994. But far from being the end of capitalism or civilization this is an opportunity for profit and restructuring. Capitalism, however reluctantly, is gearing up to make profits out of developing alternative energy sources on the one hand and on the other of accessing plentiful but more destructive to extract fossil fuel supplies. The second path of course makes global warming and other forms of pollution a lot worse but that's not likely to stop the global capitalist class.

It is not just primitivists who have become mesmerized by the oil crisis so I intend to deal with this in a separate essay. But in summary, while oil will become more expensive over the decades the process to develop substitutes for it is already underway. Denmark for instance intends to produce 50% of its energy needs from wind farms by 2030 and Danish companies are already making vast amounts of money because they are the leading producers of wind turbines. The switch over from oil is likely to provide an opportunity to make profits for capitalism rather then representing some form of final crisis.

There may well be an energy crisis as oil starts to rise in price and alternative technologies are not yet capable of filling the 40% of energy generation filled by oil. This will cause oil and therefore energy prices to soar but this will be a crisis for the poor of the world and not for the wealthy some of whom will even profit from it. A severe energy crisis could trigger a global economic downturn but again it is the world's workers that suffer the most in such times. There is a good argument that the world's elite are already preparing for such a situation, many of the recent US wars make sense in terms of securing future oil supplies for US corporations.

Capitalism is quite capable of surviving very destructive crisis. World War 2 saw many of the major cities of Europe destroyed and most of the industry of central Europe flattened. (By bombers, by war, by retreating Germans and then torn up and shipped east by advancing Russians). Millions of European workers died as a result both in the war years and in the years that followed. But capitalism not only survived, it flourished as starvation allowed wages to be driven down and profits soared.

What if?

However it is worth doing a little mental exercise on this idea of the oil running out. If indeed there was no alternative what might happen? Would a primitivist utopia emerge even at the bitter price of 5,900 million people dying?

No. The primitivists seem to forget that we live in a class society. The population of the earth is divided into a few people with vast resources and power and the rest of us. It is not a case of equal access to resources, rather of quite incredible unequal access. Those who fell victim to the mass die off would not include Rubert Murdoch, Bill Gates or George Bush because these people have the money and power to monopolise remaining supplies for themselves.

Instead the first to die in huge number would be the population of the poorer mega cities on the planet. Cairo and Alexandria in Egypt have a population of around 20 million between them. Egypt is dependent both on food imports and on the very intensive agriculture of the Nile valley and the oasis. Except for the tiny wealthy elite those 20 million urban dwellers would have nowhere to go and there is no more land to be worked. Current high yields are in part dependent on high inputs of cheap energy.

The mass deaths of millions of people is not something that destroys capitalism. Indeed at periods of history it has been seen as quite natural and even desirable for the modernization of capital. The potato famine of the 1840's that reduced the population of Ireland by 30% was seen as desirable by many advocates of free trade.(16) So was the 1943/4 famine in British ruled Bengal in which four million died(17). For the capitalist class such mass deaths, particularly in colonies afford opportunities to restructure the economy in ways that would otherwise be resisted.

The real result of an 'end of energy' crisis would see our rulers stock piling what energy sources remained and using them to power the helicopter gunships that would be used to control those of us fortunate enough to be selected to toil for them in the biofuel fields. The unlucky majority would just be kept where they are and allowed to die off. More of the 'Matrix' then utopia in other words.

The other point to be made here is that destruction can serve to regenerate capitalism. Like it or not large scale destruction allows some capitalist to make a lot of money. Think of the Iraq war. The destruction of the Iraqi infrastructure may be a disaster for the people of Iraq buts it's a profit making bonanza for Halliburton and co[18]. Not coincidentally the Iraq war, is helping the US A, where the largest corporations are based, gain control of the parts of the planet where much future and current oil production takes place.

We can extend our intellectual exercise still further. Let us pretend that some anarchists are magically transported from the Earth to some Earth like planet elsewhere. And we are dumped there without any technology at all. The few primitivists amongst us might head off to run with the deer but a fair percentage would sit down and set about trying to create an anarchist civilisation. Many of the skills we could bring might not be that useful (programming without computers is of little use) but between us we'd have a good basic knowledge of agriculture, engineering, hydraulics and physics. Next time the primitivists wandered through the area we settled they'd find a landscape of farms and dams.

We'd at least have wheeled carts and possibly draft animals if any of the large game were suitable for domestication. We'd send out parties looking for obvious sources of coal and iron and if we found these we'd mine and transport them. If not we'd be felling a lot of lumber to turn into charcoal to extract whatever iron or copper we could from what could be found. The furnace and the smelter would also be found on that landscape. We have some medical knowledge, most importantly an understanding of germs and medical hygiene so we'd have both basic water purification and sewage removal systems.

We'd understand the importance of knowledge so we'd have an education system for our children and at least the beginnings of a long-term store of knowledge (books). We could probably find the ingredients for gunpowder, which are quite common, which would give us the blasting technology need for large-scale mining and construction. If there was any marble nearby we could make concrete, which is a much better building material then wood or mud.

Technology did not come from the gods. It was not imposed on man by a mysterious outside force. Rather it is something we developed and continue to develop. Even if you could turn the clock back it would just start ticking again. John Zerzan seems to be the only primitivists capable of acknowledging this and he retreats to the position of seeing language and abstract thought as the problem. He is both right and ludicrous at the same time. His vision of utopia requires not only the death of the mass of the worlds population but would require the genetically engineered lobotomy of those who survive and their off spring! Not of course something he advocates but a logical end point of his argument.

Why argue against it?

So why spend so much space demolishing such a fragile ideology as primitivism. One reason is the embarrassing connection with anarchism some primitivists seek to claim. More importantly primitivism both by implication and often in its calls wants its followers to reject rationalism for mysticism and oneness with nature. The are not the first irrational ecological movement to do so, a good third of the German Nazi party came from forest worshipping blood and soil movements that sprang up in Germany in the aftermath of world war one.

This is not an empty danger. Within primitivism a self-proclaimed irrational wing has developed that if not yet advocating "nazi-style death camps" has openly celebrated the deaths and murder of large numbers of people as a first step.

In December 1997 the US publication Earth First wrote that "the AIDS epidemic, rather than being a scourge, is a welcome development in the inevitable reduction of human population."(19) Around the same period in Britain Steve Booth, one of the editors of a magazine called 'Green Anarchist ', wrote that

"The Oklahoma bombers had the right idea. The pity was that they did not blast any more government offices. Even so, they did all they could and now there are at least 200 government automatons that are no longer capable of oppression.

The Tokyo sarin cult had the right idea. The pity was that in testing the gas a year prior to the attack, they gave themselves away. They were not secretive enough. They had the technology to produce the gas but the method of delivery was ineffective. One day the groups will be totally secretive and their methods of fumigation will be completely effective."(20)

This is where you end up when you celebrate spirituality over rationality. When the hope of 'running with deer' overcomes the need to deal with the problem of making a revolution on a planet of 6 billion people. The ideas above have only reactionary conclusions. Their logic is elitist and hierarchical , little more than a semi-secular version of gods chosen people laying waste to the unbelievers. It certainly has nothing in common with anarchism.

We need more not less technology

Which brings us back to the start. Civilisation comes with many, many problems but it is better than the alternative. The challenge for anarchists is in transforming civilization to a form that is without hierarchy, or imbalances of power or wealth. This is not a new challenge, it has always been the challenge of anarchism as shown by the lengthy Bakunin quote at the start of this essay.

To do this we need modern technology to clean our water, pump away and process our waste and inoculate or cure people of the diseases of high population density. With only 10 million people on the earth you can shit in the woods providing you keep moving on. With 6 billion those who shit in the woods are shitting in the water they and those around them will have to drink. According to the UN "each year, more than 2.2 million people die from water and sanitation related diseases, many of them children". Close to one billion urban dwellers have no access to sustainable sanitation. Data for "43 African cities .... shows that 83 percent of the population do not have toilets connected to sewers"(21).

The challenge then is not simply the construction of a civilization that keeps everyone's standards of living at the level they are now. The challenge is raising just about everyone's standard of living but doing so in a manner that is reasonably sustainable. Only the further development of technology coupled to a revolution that eliminates inequality across the planet can deliver this.

It is unfortunate that some anarchists who live in the most developed, most wealthy and most technological nations of the world prefer to play with primitivism rather than getting down to thinking about how we can really change the world. The global transformation required will make all previous revolutions fade into insignificance.

The major problem is not simply that capitalism has been happy to leave a huge proportion of the world's population in poverty. The problem is also that development has been aimed at creating consumers for future products rather then providing what people need.

Transport provides the simplest example. A variety of forms of mass transport exist that can move huge numbers of people from place to place at great speed. Yet in the last decade capitalism has concentrated on the form that uses the greatest resources per traveler both in terms of what goes into making it and what is required to keep it running. This is the individual car.

Across large areas of the most developed parts of the globe this is pretty much the only way to get around in an efficient manner. The car has created the sprawling mega city of which Los Angeles is perhaps the most infamous example. There a city has been created whose urban layout makes individual car ownership almost compulsory.

This form of transport is simply not a solution for most of the world's population. And it's not simply that most people cannot afford a car at the moment. The resources consumed in the construction of the 3 billion odd cars needed for every adult inhabitant of the globe are simply not available. Nor are the resources (petrol) to run these 3 billion cars available.

So taking hold of existing technologies and developing new ones cannot simply mean carrying on capitalist production (or production methods) under a red and black flag. Just as a future anarchist society would seek to abolish the boring monotonous work of the assembly line so it would need to radically change the nature of the products that are produced. At a simple level in terms of transport this would perhaps begin with greatly reducing the production of cars and greatly increasing the production of bicycles, motorbikes, trains, buses, trucks and mini-buses.

I'm neither a 'transport expert' nor a worker in the transport industry so I can do no more then guess at what these changes might be. But we should be aware that outside of the west the need for transport is often solved in far less individualistic ways. Only the wealthy can afford a car but the mass of the population can often move almost as quickly from one location to another making use not only of bus and rail but also of systems of long distance collective taxis and mini-buses that run between towns whenever they are full.

This is the challenge for anarchism. Not simply to overthrow the existing capitalist world order but also to see the birth of a new world. A world that is at least capable of delivering the same access to goods, transport, healthcare and education as is accessible to the 'middle class' in Scandinavian countries today.

It is that new society that will decide what new technologies are needed and how to adopt existing technologies to the challenge of a new world. It is quite likely that some technologies, if not discarded, will be very much downgraded. It's hard to believe we would happily decide to build new nuclear power stations for instance. GMOs would need to prove something beyond the possibility of GMO's meaning greater profits and monopolies for corporations, not least that the benefit was greater than the dangers.

As long as capitalism exists it will continue to wreak environmental havoc as it chases profits. It will only effectively respond to the energy crisis once that becomes profitable and because there will be a lag of many years before oil can be replaced this might mean worsening poverty and death for many or the poorer people in the world. But we cannot fix these problems by dreaming of some lost golden age when the world's population was low enough to support hunter gathering. We can only sort it out by building the sort of mass movements that can not only overthrow capitalism but also introduce a libertarian society. And on the way we need to find ways to halt and even reverse some of the worst of the environmental threats capitalism is generating.

Primitivism is a pipe dream - it offers no way forwards in the struggle for a free society. Often its adherents end up undermining that struggle by attacking the very things, like mass organization, that are a requirement to win it. Those primitivists who are serious about changing the world need to re-examine what they are fighting for.

Andrew Flood
June 11 2004

If you wish you can comment on or reply to this article

More articles by Andrew

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/andrew/primitivism.html

Trackback

Trackback URL for this entry: http://news.infoshop.org/trackback.php?id=2005012715260752

No trackback comments for this entry.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism | 42 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: HPWombat on Thursday, January 27 2005 @ 04:42 PM UTC
What a bunch of hoo-hah. Thousands of species have been eliminated, ecosystems destroyed, yet the humanists demand this project to continue. Under the domination of democracy and federation will the future socialism reign and further a totality where the meeting, along with television, along with work, steals your life. It has been suggested by many in favor of socialism that work would have some level of coersion to further civilization. The level of bureaucracy needed to run a global civilization would cause a great deal of disconnection with decision-making or make decision-making so unwieldy that the federation would become useless. Civil society would still need prisons, police and therapy to cope, whether they are collective or not.

Embracing a system of control like technology is fallacy. Technology requires specialists, a division of labor, which can't be solved by rotation, as some socialists have suggested. Technology enforces class society.

On Andrew's theory that mass die off would affect the wealthy and powerful last, I disagree. We do live in a class society and while both classes perpetuate a domesticated existence, the willful end of civilization would require that such an occurance would be rectified through our actions. Collapsism or the passive acceptance that the end of civilization will occur is rightfully dismissed by Andrew, but for the wrong reasons. We should end civilization and be prepared for it to occur, not sit and wait for the future to bring its end. Such idleness is not a challenge to power, but an acceptance of it and who knows when the end will come. Andrew does rightfully bring up that capitalism can find another way outside of oil to run its gears, so sitting and waiting could just mean that is what life will be like til you die...waiting for a real life. I'd rather destroy.

Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: anarcho on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 02:09 PM UTC
HPWombat writes:

"What a bunch of hoo-hah. Thousands of species have been
eliminated, ecosystems destroyed, yet the humanists demand
this project to continue."

no, far from it. Anarchists want to end the destruction
caused by capitalism. ecosystems are being destroyed for
profit by a system in which an elite runs everything. It
is doubtful a society of free individuals would seek to
destroy the environment they are part of.

So we start with a strawman argument...

"Under the domination of democracy and federation will the
future socialism reign and further a totality where the
meeting, along with television, along with work, steals
your life."

So meeting with other people steals your life? How sad. And
just supposing that this is true, what does that mean for
"primitivism"? Well, no organisations and meetings, no work,
as an instant solution to the social problem. Which means a
mass die off as 6 billion people will not survive hunting and
foraging, as Andrew has proven.

I would suggest that HPWombat's comments are superficial and,
while sounding extremely radical, are nothing of the sort.

<snip>

"Embracing a system of control like technology is fallacy.
Technology requires specialists, a division of labor, which
can't be solved by rotation, as some socialists have suggested.
Technology enforces class society."

Fine, so you aim to abolish all technology instantly then?
if so, how do you avoid the deaths of billions?

<snip>

"so sitting and
waiting could just mean that is what life will be like til
you die...waiting for a real life. I'd rather destroy."

Just to stress the obvious, HPWombat has not addressed the
issue that the end of technology would result in the deaths
of billions. Instead we get a plea for destruction. I think
that sums up the validity of his ideas.

What a bunch of hoo-hah indeed!
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: HPWombat on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 06:24 PM UTC
"So meeting with other people steals your life?"

Not meeting..meetings, the behaviorisms of the institutions of democracy.

"Fine, so you aim to abolish all technology instantly then?
if so, how do you avoid the deaths of billions?"

I certainly don't plan to reform it away. I don't plan to avoid killing people. Andrew could be very correct about the massive amount of death that would occur with the end of civilization. I disagree with areas of his logic, such as a spacial comparision of agriculture vs. a forest, as if it were that simple.

Certainly from my argument it is clear that I reject humanism and the tears for the future dead. I am not a missionary and I make no pleas for forgiveness or acceptance.

---
Put a stick in your ass because I don't give a fuck.
the pointlessness of primitivism
Authored by: anarcho on Saturday, January 29 2005 @ 02:43 PM UTC
"Not meeting..meetings, the behaviorisms of the institutions of democracy."

so the primitivist society would not have meetings of any kind? Even tribal communities have community meetings, so suggesting primitivism rejects even tribal forms!

"I certainly don't plan to reform it away. I don't plan to avoid killing people."

Enough said. You are no anarchist.
the pointlessness of primitivism
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 30 2005 @ 07:49 AM UTC
I'm not a primitivist and I'm not talking about future society, I'm talking about the bullshit that the socialists have to offer us, be it present or future, which is merely a reflection of the institutions that socialists often stand up and advocate.

I am opposed to institutions and yes, meetings. I don't know where you got the conclusion that I am a primitivist, more of an egoist materialist/nihilist.

Enough said I am no anarchist? Where is your logic? Do you plan to not kill people? You are a fool who misinterprets people's positions or distorts them for the sake of maintaining ideological adherence rooted in the failures of socialism.

I guess you plan to reform it away, if not support it outright. You are in fact just a socialist and not an anarchist. Go worship your FAQ comrade, that idol you created. Ignore history and how anarchist theory has changed to reflect its rejection of the left and the methods of socialism. Your theories are a rehashing of failure that will always be doomed to never go further than reforming that which dominates us.

My theories more fall within the line of destructive theories that Bakunin developed as well as early Kropotkin, which gives plenty of basis for my anarchist ideas. Anarchy before the syndicalist bandwagon, a bandwagon you embrace as well as your compatriot Andrew Flood.
the pointlessness of primitivism
Authored by: HPWombat on Sunday, January 30 2005 @ 07:58 AM UTC
That comment was of course by me

---
Put a stick in your ass because I don't give a fuck.
the pointlessness of primitivism
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 31 2005 @ 05:53 AM UTC
I'm with anarcho. You don't sound like an anarchist. More like a wingnut.
the pointlessness of primitivism
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, February 03 2005 @ 11:02 PM UTC
I doubt that either Bakunin or Kropotkin would care to be associated with your line of thinking.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 27 2005 @ 06:10 PM UTC
ya, i think my initial realization, or first viceral reaction to capitalism was at about 13 when i entered the work force and realized 'hey, this is going to be your life. work or starvation.' logically i rejected such a notion and was glad to find political philosophy/movements which offered up an alternative to wage slavery or starvation. I have to admit, i have the same viceral reaction when primitivists argue that i either chose between wage slavery (this system) or death (massive die off due to fall of civilization). call me a human-centrist or what ever but i would rather try to achive harmony and peace without a massive die off, and if it fails in the end then so what. I would rather fight for a decent life for us all then atempt to bring about a massive die off anyway.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 09:35 AM UTC
i do not consider myself a primitivist persay but i am anti-civ and i am highly influenced by the primitivists as well as insurrectionary anarchists. when it comes to the primitivists i am very into rewilding as a tool of revolt against the totality and plan to engage in my own experiment with this sometime soon.

the problem i have with your reply is that you are making a blanket statement about primitivists. not all are in favor of mass die off which is mainly something that right wing primitivists like former earth firster dave foreman favor. what mosts primitivists seem to be in favor of from my reading of green anarchy is an end to mass production and the slavery of work as well as large scale monoculture.
both of which are destroying eco-systems and land based peoples who are forced into proletarianization.

primitivism does not necessarily imply mass die off. for one thing we can loot the bloated surplus of what civlization has left behind to supply our needs. another way to survive would obviously be rewiliding, studying up on the skills to live off the land such as foraging and hunting and how to make shelters. speaking of shelter there would be plenty of it to choose from after the fall of civilization as civilizations ruins would be plentiful. there is also permaculture which many primitivists are in favor of and i know it works cause i have seen it in action at a friends farm.

please do not conflate an entire spectrum of philosophy with the position of a few right wing and misanthropic fascists who happen to subscribe to the lable primitivist, that is hardly rational debate. though i do apperciate the problems you pointed out with the philosophy of workerist anarchists.

-Heretic
Where does the food come from.
Authored by: Andrew on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 10:22 AM UTC
There is something odd here as you claim not to see the need for a
mass die off but you imagine in a primitive society both food and
housing will be surplus because of the stocks built up under civilisation.
The food you eat now is grown by someone and transported by
someone whether you buy it in a shop or get it out of a dumpster.
Perhaps you grow your own but complete self reliance is very rare in the
west and is unlikly to be combined with internet access.

Where I am there is a real housing shortage and in many areas of the
world there are real food shortages. The surplus you talk about could
therefore only come into existence if a lot of people were to magically
vanish.

This is an illustration of how a lot of primitivists don't think through
their beliefs to the logical conclusions. Which means you end up with a
load of utopian demands on the one hand and a program which if ever
actually implemented would be a disaster. Historically this is really bad
news as similar movement in the past that became successful were
disasterous and open to all sorts of manipulation.

If your serious about revolution - that is you think it is something that
could happen - you need to think through this stuff. There could well
be answers I've missed or am unaware of but so far it looks like a lot of
primitivism is based on an assumption of failure. Its exists as a
(sometimes useful) critique rather than a real constructive program.

---
-----
http://anarchism.ws
http://struggle.ws
Primitivism avoids the issues
Authored by: anarcho on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 02:13 PM UTC
-Heretic writes:

"the problem i have with your reply is that you are
making a blanket statement about primitivists. not
all are in favor of mass die off which is mainly
something that right wing primitivists . . . favor."

Not at all, read the article and it's clear that Andrew
is specific about who he is talking about. The key problem
is that primitvism is caught between a rock and a hard place.

On the one hand, they argue that "civilisation" is inherently
oppressive. One the other, they deny that they want a mass
die off. The problem is that these two positions are mutually
exclusive from an anarchist perspective.

Either you acknowledge that a transition period is necessary
otherwise you get a mass die off or you don't. If you do, that
means maintaining "civilisation" for a lengthy period of time
while we population decreases naturally and freely, while we
"rewild" ourselves and so forth. But, according to primitivism,
"civilisation" is inherently authoritarian and oppressive and
so, consequently, any transitional period cannot be anarchist.

So we have the crux of the problem: reject transition and support
mass die offs or support transition and reject any claim to be
an anarchist.

"what mosts primitivists seem to be in favor of from my reading
of green anarchy is an end to mass production and the slavery of
work as well as large scale monoculture. "

Fine. Is that going to happen overnight? If so, how can 6 billion
people live if mass production ends quickly? If mass production
does not end quickly then it will have to be managed and organised
-- something primitivists insist will be oppressive and authoritarian.
And an authoritarian transition period has nothing to do with
anarchism.

"primitivism does not necessarily imply mass die off. for one thing
we can loot the bloated surplus of what civlization has left behind
to supply our needs."

So 6 billion people will be living off of tins of baked beans
looted from decaying cities and towns? Sounds very inspiring,
assuming it was possible (which it is not).

"another way to survive would obviously be
rewiliding, studying up on the skills to live off the land such
as foraging and hunting and how to make shelters."

6 billion people foraging and hunting? As Andrew proved, that is
impossible. And will they all have time to "study up"? That takes
time and that implies, yet again, a transition period.

So, to summarise, not seen any sort of response to the issues
that Andrew raised.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, January 27 2005 @ 06:48 PM UTC
>>Thousands of species have been eliminated, ecosystems destroyed, yet the humanists demand this project to continue.

Well I consider that a strawman of Andrew's position, which I think clearly showed his vision that technology in an anarchist society would be applied to solving problems other than keeping fat profits in the hands of industrialists. Hence the talks about the ways to get rid of the car culture, which *will* necessitate technology and urbanism, at least in as much as if we all become pedestrians we'll need to redraw the way our communities are built.

>>Technology requires specialists, a division of labor, which can't be solved by rotation, as some socialists have suggested. Technology enforces class society.

You will have to explain to me the hatred for division of labor that primitivists have. My guess is that the definition they use for that term is different than mine, hence my confusion.

I believe division of labor would occur in any libertarian society, regardless of technological advancement, simply because of the fact that each of us have our own talents and interests, and that we don't desire to do the same work (or productive play, for those who like to rename things for no reason) as our neighbor does. Now in the primitivist world, it seems to me that if there is no division of labor amongst people who have a knack and interest in something ('experts' in other words), then that means all of us have to do everything necessary for our own survival. Now personally I am not very interested in hunting my meals, but I know a lot of people who are. Also, a lot of them have absolutly no interest in the kind of work I do (which, admitedly, wouldn't exist in a primitivist society). If we allow our natural impulses and desires to take course, won't there be a defacto division of labor? And if we want to prevent this, won't we need some, shall I say, authoritarian means of preventing it?
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 10:04 AM UTC
car culture is not the only problem here nor could it be likely eliminated without destroying civlization. here is an example: solar power. to make solar panels you need mining because you need minerals and ores to construct said solar panels and you will need factory work to assemble solar panels for everyone as well. to distribute these you need transportation and if we are talking about a mass scale society, linked up by federalism (and wombats point about THAT is excellent, not one mass society has existed that wasn't filled with the repressions he mentions but plenty of small bands have) this will mean a network of roads for the transportation of these materials.

what does this come too? forests will need to be felled for the roads and the mines which will also tear into moutains and which are one of the most hazardous work environments there are. not only that but since we WILL still need vehicles we will be chained to more work manufacturing or at least maintaining said vehicles. i could probably think of many more things necessary to, say, solar technology but i think i have made my point.

technology does not exist in isolation. if you want solar panels you need factory production. if you want factory production peoples days need to be regulated by time scheduels. this will probably escalate into regulating people with rewards and punishments and it becomes nothing better than wage slavery. this necessarily strikes and impostion on those of us who do not wish to be a part of mass production or federalized society like myself.

in closing here are some excelent books that point out the problems of civilization:

1.) the culture of make believe (derrick jensen)
2.) running on emptiness (john zerzan)
3.) rouge primate (john livingston)
4.) guns, germs, and steel (jared diamond)
5.) the forest people (colin m. turnbull)

note: #4 does not speak in favor of destroying civilization per say but shows how with mass society comes social control definit hierarchies starting with the tribe which has chiefdom and becoming more entreched as the nation moves in and expands, always through subjegation of its nieghbors since the time of sumnar thousands of years ago. #5 is a study of the bambuti pygamies in africa and the compasison between their way of life and the surronding villages is an excellent way to show that as society becomes more massified it becomes more repressive. there are plenty of good books i have heard of on these subjects i intend to read more of but i decided only to list good books on these subjects i have actualy read. i am sure others sympathetic to mine and wombats positions could throw down some more good sources.

-Heretic
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Andrew on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 10:39 AM UTC
I guess your posting from North America and if so is quite reasonable to
believe that 'car culture could not be likely eliminated without destroying
civlization'. US culture and urban geography means that right now there
are huge areas of the country where a car is pretty essential to survival.

But this isn't typical of the rest of the world, not even of parts of the US.
For day to day life a car is more of a problem then a requirement if you
lived in Manhatten for instance.

Huge areas of the planet have access to mass transportation with a very
low percentage of car ownership - in the most part because people are
too poor to afford individual cars. If you go anywhere in North Africa
you can travel long distances rapidly and at ease, reaching even quite
small towns because the lack of car ownership has created an incredibly
sophesticated network of collective taxis. They leave from fixed points
in each town whenever a vehicle is full. Really busy routes also have
trains and buses.

If tomorrow gas hits 200 dollars a barrel then within a couple of months
this is what you would have in the US as well. Your current transport
culture is very much determined by the oil industry and relatively cheap
oil. Its not how the rest of the world lives.

What you say about solar panels is completely true. They require
industrial civilisation - they can't in general be made from the sort of
material you can pick up on a walk through the woods.

The challenge then - and this has always been the central challenge of
anarchism if you read the stuff written in the 1860's and 70's - is to
create a civilisation without the mechanisms of repression that - as you
point out - all civilisations to date have had. If you don't belive that is
possible then your choice is to wait for the sort of population crash that
could make small scale society feasible over the planet once again. And
perhaps try and work out mechanisms to prevent civilisation re-
establishing itself.

This is an interesting idea but one that really has nothing to do with
anarchism as it has existed. I also think its a very, very disempowering
world view - there is nothing to hope for in it. But perhaps it is your
choice.

---
-----
http://anarchism.ws
http://struggle.ws
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 29 2005 @ 03:10 PM UTC
Guns germs and steel is a terrible book, by a right-wing idiot who shows no respect for democracy or rebellion
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 30 2005 @ 09:25 PM UTC
>>Guns germs and steel is a terrible book, by a right-wing idiot who shows no respect for democracy or rebellion

Please elaborate. I found the book interesting, if heavy on the historical determinism. I am unaware of the political views of Jarred Diamond. And I haven't seen any indications of his views for democracy or rebellion in his book. So it would be useful if you could explain, in detail, the basis for your objections based on those 3 points.

Incidently, I find it interesting that a primitivist would ask me to read a book that explains all the problems with the hunter-gatherer lifestyle (high murder rates, lack of surplus food leading to periods of starvation, etc...)
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Morpheus on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 12:05 AM UTC
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 05:26 AM UTC
I don't think this reply deals with what my critique actually says - more
with what you might think it says if you just scanned it rapidly.

Your first two items point out what you consider to be strawmen on my
part. Yet is you read the text you'll find these are not simply stated as
'primitivists believe
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anarcho_NerD on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 05:37 AM UTC
Technology is in fact the only device that will ibring anarchism to the world and keep it there. We can never go back to the stone age, we can only move forward. With technology, we can devise better ways of living in harmony with the Earth and each other. Primitivist are nothing but nhilists with a hard-on. Stop being a Luddite and try to find real solutions to real problems.

---
It takes a long time to die from a watsed life
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 10:27 AM UTC
first off point out to me even one example of a modern society that had as its basis autonomy and don't even try to say spain during the revolution becuase though i am not an expert on this i know enough to be able to counter that.

i wonder if you are familar with history even from a glance. the arguments you make do not bear out by the records. since the begining of technology -as distinguished from tool use- we have seen the large scale murder and forced assimilation of peoples starting with the first societies to utilze large scale agirculture in the fertile crescent.

band socities were the most anarchistic that humanity has ever known and while i don't argue the aping of any specific culture of any specific society it is sobering to study them in comparision with civilized life. i am sure those societies felt very liberated and honored when they were forced to become part of the growing nations of civlization expanding to encompass them. please read history before you make assumptions about technology.

or just take america and japan (please) as examples of very high tech socities. both were formed based on genocidal subjegating of band and tribal people to form nations and now both are among the most high tech socities in the world. know how both exist? mass enslavement to wage slavery and systems of policing at home as well as plenty of brutal subjegation abroad in sweatshops propped up by wars if other peoples happen to not want to be part of globalization -USPECIALY indigenous peoples- the world over. this is how it has been since technology came into existance and seeing as how technology has had THOUSANDS of years to be liberatory and i think we have proof it is not.

i end this with a challenge to you. i want you to tell me in detail how an ultra high tech society could create an egalitarian existance for humanity but not only humanity, also how it can exist without hyper exploitation of every other life form on this planet. come up with how this is "the solution" and if i am not busy with other things and decide to come back here i am sure i can counter any ideas you throw out about such a society. i know about such ideas cause i used to be down with them so i could probably refute them pretty easily.

-Heretic
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Andrew on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 10:59 AM UTC
Technology is what we do with it. In the general sense it is neither
liberatory or repressive. Particular uses of technology may however
contribute to either. The birth control pill certainly plays a part in giving
women choices about reproduction that were previously hard to come
by safely or in secrecy. On the other hand its hard to think of a positive
use of the electric chair or a nuclear bomb.

Beyond this the development of technology quite clearly made it
possible to have a society where there was a division into workers and
bosses. Once you can store surplus food you can have accumulation of
meaningful wealth and the ability to pay the soldier, the policeman and
the executioner.

So yes the question comes down to one of whether its possible to have
a free technological society - and anarchism insists it is - or whether the
choice is between a primitive 'freedom' and an oppressive technological
society.

The vast majority of political theories, perhaps all except anarchism, do
indeed claim you cannot have a free technological society. I think its
worth hoping they are wrong even if we have never as yet had such a
society.

---
-----
http://anarchism.ws
http://struggle.ws
Primitivism still missing/avoiding the point
Authored by: anarcho on Saturday, January 29 2005 @ 02:52 PM UTC
I know that "civilisation" has been created by bloody means. I also know that to abolish industrial society overnight will cause the deaths of billions. Given that no primitivist on this thread has answered this issue (bar one, who said they did not care about it!), I can say that primitivism's inherent impossibility is exposed.

"I end this with a challenge to you. i want you to tell me in detail how an ultra high tech society could create an egalitarian existance for humanity but not only humanity, also how it can exist without hyper exploitation of every other life form on this planet."

Who was talking about an "ultra high tech" society? I'm sure an anarchist society would transform technology along with the rest of society. I would imagine a free society would be substantially different from the current one -- no cities, for example, human scale technology and so on. I'm just aware that this won't happen overnight and that it will take time to move from the inheritance of capitalism to a better society. But as I don't reject technology and organisation as inherently authoritarian, such a transition period is acceptably anarchist.

So I refuse to be drawn into a strawman argument. I'm not arguing for an "ultra high tech" system. I'm arguing that going from where we are now to a decent society based on appropriate technology will take time and will need organisation.

The logic of primitivism is such that it cannot recognise the need for a transition period and remain anarchist. To reject a transition period would be to exclude it not only from anarchism but also humanity. I notice that no primitivist has addressed this issue. That is significant.
Primitivism still missing/avoiding the point
Authored by: HPWombat on Sunday, January 30 2005 @ 08:47 AM UTC
It is because your argument is a humanist argument. While I must reiterate that I am not a primitivist, nor is Heretic, the basis of your argument is centered on the belief that human life is somehow sacred. This is false in reality and it is false in revolutionary application, even from a socialist standpoint. Some primitivists are biocentric, some are similar to myself and are anti-humanist and anti-biocentric because both are clearly moral ways of looking at the world and see the biocentric view as an extension of the humanist (or anthropocentric) view.

Suffering sucks and we all suffer now as we are all living dead in this artificial reality. Both classes enforce our domestication and the demagogues of the exploited only want to present methods of social change where the democratic institution is elevated into power and these institutions can never truly challenge domination because they are an aspect of it.

An insitution will never free us, be it top-down or bottom-up, so it stands to reason that anarchists would've rejected this crap a long time ago, but no, we are still left with large segments of libertarian socialists that are reacting to the contemporary anarchist mileau that finds the socialist way of thinking flawed and/or undesirable, if not just a downright failure. The critiques offered by the socialists are based on the economic aspect of life and thus only free along those same lines, we can only have federated communism because we must take on 6 billion people.

The nature of revolution clearly shows that massive amounts of death will occur in any real radical social rupture that fails to recuperate itself before such death occurs. If you think the counter power situation will arrive without a little cold-hearted killing, you are clearly mistaken. If you think that a dual power situation will sacrifice the necessity of progress for the sake of human life, you are wrong again.

The dual power situation (a directly democratic state within a global situation where other states are still controlled by the capitalist class) will still compete for technological superiority, will still use systems of commodity exchange, will make work and democratic participation acceptable and will paint those that oppose such behaviorisms as unacceptable or unpatriotic. It is clear that anarchists oppose domination and socialism offers us nothing but domination, be it an embryo as it is now, an infant in the cases of dual power or a full grown adult that killed old man capitalism just to put his democratic ass in the capitalist's chair.

So what should we do about it? Clearly if we are discussing the elimination of technology and the heart of an ever progressive civilization, then we are discussing attacking the grid, be it an aspect of insurrection or revolution, or simply the actions of individuals that have had enough of what civilization has to offer and want to turn it off.

Collapism gives justification to many primitivists for why they would do such actions, but for myself, I see no justice in percieving individual actions in the same way as the actions of a blizzard/hurricane or that of a virus. Individual actions are done in a conscious way to diliberately cause an effect and what a better way to express your wrath against the increasingly total control of their lives and that of society than through a direct assault on the cornerstone of civilization?

---
Put a stick in your ass because I don't give a fuck.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 29 2005 @ 02:17 PM UTC
Fine. I
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 29 2005 @ 07:58 PM UTC
Technology is what we do with it. But contemporary technology is based on power relations of the bad kind.

Do you think that in various states of anarchy people will want to stand by and watch the ground go boom as the mine is made(indigenous people in particular)? Will any group of people who are now free of all these relations of power be willing to spend any time in the mine? Even if the conditions are leagues better then they are now, there is still risks with going down there. Lastly will any group of people want to spend any time in a factory now that the power relations that put them there in the 1st place have hopefully been extinguished.

Also take into account the lives of non-human life.

Militant
3 Rs
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 12:28 PM UTC
I really see both sides here.

What about the 3 Rs to its maximum level. What about(not sure if this is possible) smelting recycled materials.
Scaling down will have to happen obviously.

I do respect the primitivists I must say for considering the lifes of non-humans in a world of anarchy.

Militant
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, January 28 2005 @ 12:51 PM UTC
As Andrew replied in the thread responding to Anarcho NerD, "Technology is what we do with it."

This is a valuable point. The primitivist opposition to technology is very problematic, and is an excellent example of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

Certainly, the industrial, hierarchical use of technology is not acceptable, nor valuable, to a future anarchist society. BUT, the potential for using technology to benefit and improve the lives of all people is vast. HUMAN-SCALED, decentralized technology is possible, appropriate, and maybe even ESSENTIAL, for our future to create a better society (forgive my assumption that society and community are something to strive for...).

I would suggest looking into writings by Murray Bookchin on his ideas of Social Ecology (see the "Learn" section of http://www.social-ecology.org). He provides a valuable critique and offers many positive solutions.

Aaron.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Andrew on Sunday, January 30 2005 @ 05:52 AM UTC
For the most part this is quite a constructive discussion. A few
additional comments

On the permaculture etc points. To an extent I agree, we already have
many quite simple agricultural technologies that I'd like to see a more
widespread implementation of. I'm a gardner myself and you can get a
surprizing amount of food in the spring , summer and autumn out of
even a 3m2 plot near the city centre. For this sort of human intensive
agriculture fertiliser needs are quite happily filled by composting kitchen
waste. I'm about to try our a wormery which allows you to also
compost cooked foods and outputs a liquid fertiliser. I also enjoy
catching/finding and preparing 'wild' food.

Certainly the early labour movement often put quite an emphasis on
urban workers being able to have access to small plots of land - apart
from anything else in the event of a strike this meant there was some
minimum food stock to fall back on. In Britain and to a lesser extent
Ireland urban allotments were not unusual. I don't think urban gardens
could ever provide an alternative to energy intensive agricutlture at the
worlds current population but they do help to break down the divide
between urban and rural workers and to get people to think about the
labour that goes into producing the food on the table.

All this however is a very long way indeed from wishing to see a society
where everyone has to produce their own food. That I don't see as
either an option or desirable.

On the old chestnut about nobody wanting to go down the mines.
Have you ever actually talked to any miners. There are anarchists who
have and do work in mines in both the west and the global south and
while they all admit this to be dirty and often dangerous work they also
see it as socially rewarding precisely because it is necessary for
civilisation. The nature of the work also often means that those doing it
have a much stronger sense of comradeship and community than those
of us who tap keyboards for a living. Some of the most militant labour
disputes the world has seen have been carried out by miners defending
their jobs.

There is in any case very little point in comparing work in mines or
factories under capitalism with the same role if the workers were in
charge of their workplaces.

I've written a bit about the other aspects of global trade at http://
struggle.ws/talks/trade_mar01.html

---
-----
http://anarchism.ws
http://struggle.ws
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Andrew on Monday, January 31 2005 @ 08:16 AM UTC
"pious workerist quasi marxist claptrap ... ludicrous ... red borg leftist
lamers and losers of the klingons".

Not much of an argument your making there. Do you have an argument
to make?

Beyond that we didn't do "very well without a state or 'mass
organization". Half of us died before we were five, very few of us lived
to be 30. Huge number of women died in chidbirth.

You can certainly argue about whether - if it all - early agriculture
represented an improvement over hunter gathering. But in comparison
with today unless you are posting from Afghanistan (where you life
expectancy would be only 25 - 50% greater then in primitive society)
you don't even have a weak argument.

---
-----
http://anarchism.ws
http://struggle.ws
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Admin on Monday, January 31 2005 @ 09:17 AM UTC
I removed Pr's flamebait.

Chuck
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Andrew on Thursday, December 01 2005 @ 05:32 AM UTC
I've put a follow up article online which replies to some of the points made
on this thread amongst others. It is at http://www.anarkismo.net/
newswire.php?story_id=1890

Is primitivism realistic? An anarchist reply to John Zerzan and others

A reply to primitivist critiques of 'Civilisation, Primitivism and Anarchism'
One of the major confusions in the anarchist movement in the USA and parts
of Europe arises out of primitivism and its claim to be part of the anarchist
movement. But primitivism is not a realistic strategy for social revolution and
it opposes the basic purpose of anarchism - the creation of a free mass
society. Primitivists have attempted to reply to these criticisms but these
replies are easily exposed as more to do with faith then reality.

It is at http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=1890

---
-----
Anarkismo.net
http://anarchism.ws
http://struggle.ws

Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 01 2005 @ 08:12 AM UTC
This may confuse Andrew and other who don't know much about American anarchism, but primitivism doesn't confuse American anarchists nor is it a problem here. People talk about primitivism, but they aren't confused by it. Those of us who find value in primitivism--which I see as a critique more than anything else--are not affected by primitivism when we do our activism and work towards building mass-based movements.

What's really annoying are anarchists who are dogmatic in opposition to primitivism and cast it as some kind of evil thing within anarchism. Perhaps if you all would spend less time obsessing over primitivism, you could move us along closer to revolution.

Chuck0
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Andrew on Thursday, December 01 2005 @ 08:20 AM UTC
Actually I don't see primitivism as being something within anarchism at all. That
is part of the point of the essay.

And in the first essay above I acknowledge that primitvism does contain a useful
critique of aspects of civilisation - its just neither a very new one or one unique
to primitivism. The major point being that this is all it can be - a critique. As a
program for change it is just scary for the reasons I outline.

---
-----
Anarkismo.net
http://anarchism.ws
http://struggle.ws
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 01 2005 @ 08:46 AM UTC
I, like many other anarchists, see primitivism as being compatible with, and part of anarchism.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Andrew on Thursday, December 01 2005 @ 08:58 AM UTC
OK that is an assertion and your free to make it. In the essay I go to some
length to show why this is not the case - have you got an answer to that
beyond repeating your assertion.

---
-----
Anarkismo.net
http://anarchism.ws
http://struggle.ws
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 01 2005 @ 09:00 AM UTC
The only scary thing about primitivism is the conclusions one reaches about capitalism and civilization when one takes the primitivist critique seriously. For me, that critique helps motivate me to engage in class struggle, dissent, and activism. It prompts me to spend everyday doing stuff that builds mass-based networks. If the situation for the planet is dire and civilization itself is dangerous to all of us, then we are up against alot.

Are you really worried that people will read primitivist critiques and run off into the woods? That's just very silly! North American anarchists have been familiar with primitivism for around 20 years, yet it has educated and informed our struggle, not the other way around. You see primitivism as a bugaboo that is holding North American anarchism back from engaging in mass struggle, dissent or whatever. As a North American anarchist who is plugged into what is going on around here, I have to point out that your concern is totally unfounded. Primitivism just isn't something holding anybody back from serious organizing. If anything is a hindrance, it is the negative, self-righteous anti-primitivists who are obsessed with anything connected to primitivism. Instead of celebrating the fact that there are more anarchists out there doing all kinds of cool shit, they prefer to label all of us as "lifestylists" because we won't adopt their "platform" or whatever. This is extremely stupid, because it insults people who are engaged in serious organizing and are turned off by this sectarianism.

Primitivism is not holding American anarchist back on any level. Our chief problems revolve around things like a lack of basic organizing skills, geographical isolation, having to devote our lives to earning money instead of organizing, and so on. Another problem is the leftism that still infects anarchist discourse and organizing. I don't understand why any anarchist would want to ape the language and practices of the loser left when we have something better going on. We organize "feeder" and "breakway" marches instead of organizing our own stuff or being more involved in the planning of major protests.

I could come up with a long list of problems facing American anarchists. Primitivism would not be on that list.

Chuck0
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: anarcho on Thursday, December 01 2005 @ 01:02 PM UTC
What is the point of having a critique when that critique
offers an impossible solution to the problems it exposes?

As it stands, this is the problem with primitivism -- it is impossible (and I think it's supporters know that deep down). It may appear superficially revolutionary but it has no real revolutionary perspective.

That and it is internally contradictory -- it attacks anarchist ideas on organisation, workers self-management and so forth as "authoritarian" -- and then turns round and says that a primitivist society will take time to create and so industry cannot be got rid of all at once. But how they propose to run industry without organisation and workers' self-management is not explained!

All in all, Andrew has produced a good couple of articles which show the silliness and poverty of primitivism well.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 01 2005 @ 02:29 PM UTC
Frankly, I think that Andrew is more divisive than he is constructive with the various articles and pages he's created on post-leftism, primitivism, etc. More importantly, you guys int eh British Isles don't have a clue about the anarchist movement in the United States. You see a cartoon version of our movement based on your obsessions with variants of anarchism that you see as "embarassing." I'm not got to waste my time with a detailed rebutal of Andrew's crazy attacks on American anarchism. He is entitled to his opinion about primitivism, but his generalizations about American anarchism is sabotaging the work that many of us are trying to accomplish.

Let me be blunt about this another way--people like Andrew are more concerned with primitivism than most American anarchists. We talk about it, but it's not even a hot controversy here. And we have far more intelligent conversations about primitivism and anarchism than the silly attacks that suggest that we will be vicitimized by primitivism.

Many of us are interested in primitivism, see that it adds much to anarchism, and are still involved in activism, class war, and movement-building. It's kind of laughable that British and Irish anarchists think that we need their pamphlets to have a correct discussion about these topics.

Chuck
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Andrew on Friday, December 02 2005 @ 03:37 AM UTC
Chuck from re-reading your comment I get the very strong impression that
you have'nt even glanced over the article your replying to ( It is at http://
www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=1890 ) but are responding to
the mention of the USA in the summary. If you take the time to read the
article (and you are free to choose not to for ideological reasons) you'll see
1. There is only one paragraph on anarchism in the USA.
2. That my worry about primitivism is not that some people might go off to
the woods (I'm not sure what is meant to be wrong with doing this BTW) but
that it is a waste of time some of whose exponents now advocate policies
that if taken seriously would result in mass death.

Your method of argument because you haven't read the article consists of
various ad honeum attacks and the repeated claim that I know nothing of
anarchism in the USA.

On that second point I'll say two things
1. If it is true then infoshop isn't doing its job very well because I'm a regular
visitor who presumes it reflects the US anarchist movement.
2. In actual fact I've been in New York, Washington DC, Baltimore and
Vermont as well as having met a couple of dozen anarchists from the USA
over here and talked with them in detail about the situation there. I think
this gives me an informed outside perspective and sometimes such
perspectives are worth listening to rather than writing off.

In other words maybe you should take your fingers out of your ears and
listen to what is being said before dismissing it. You may well still dismiss it
but at least we will have had a conversation.

---
-----
Anarkismo.net
http://anarchism.ws
http://struggle.ws

Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, February 01 2006 @ 06:04 AM UTC
Let's say we don't want die-offs, so we'll need a transition period. Well, so what? We use what technology we need to keep people alive and get rid of the technology we find to do more harm than good. Most if not all anarchists probably believe in this, I imagine. Civilization is not some thing that you either have or don't have, and neither is technology. We may disagree as to which technologies are absolutely necessary, but in the meantime, it's clear a transition period is needed, so let's focus on working on that. We can try to, say, rework agricultural production so that it pollutes less and/or leads to less hierarchy -- or whatever the problem is. If we need something like agriculture for at least the time being in order to keep people alive as much as possible, then that's what we need and we shouldn't moan about it. The most important thing in the short run is avoiding mass die-offs. In the long run is there really an intractable disagreement between primitivists and non-prim anarchists? In the long run, we can do two things: 1) rework civilizational technology along more beneficial ends instead of destructive, hierarchial ones, as the non-primitivist anarchists wish; and 2) reduce the amount of truly unnecessary technology gradually enough to avoid die-offs, while taking care to spread the use of deathless birth-control methods to keep the population from getting any bigger without killing those who already exist. We may find, as the population gradually falls through fewer births, that we can transition to hunting and gathering or at least small-scale farming. Maybe we won't. In the meantime, let's keep people alive and do what we can to reduce both environmental degredation and hierarchy while keeping whatever we need to avoid die-offs. Am I making any sense? It seems like there shouldn't be much of an argument here. Thanks.
Andrew Flood: Civilisation, Primitivism and anarchism
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 15 2006 @ 03:57 AM UTC

Andrew, you write a long article, and I am not going to attempt to rebutt point-for-point. I'm just going to say my peace and you can take it or leave it.

Many of us are only now acknowledging that maybe we have lost something really big, and we are still grappling with the proper procedures for grief over this.
Ireland is a very different place from north america, not least for it's geographical history. In my goings around Ireland I rarely come across a place where there is even a glimmer of Wilderness (I mean this in the sense that I have maybe once found myself someplace where I wasn't constantly expecting some one else to come tromping along). Coming from the west coast of canada I feel very ill at ease here without this easy-to-acess refuge. The entire island has been claimed, farmed, and developed many times over and now it's history of oak forests and wild animals is really a fading shadow. Perhaps this makes it more difficult to understand the draw to discussing primitivism. Perhaps not.

Have you considered the value of creativity and imagination, and what these have to offer anarchism?

I am not going to read the anarkismo article. I found the first article pretty condescending with comments such as