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Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left

Ron Paul is not your friend. He is not your ally. He is not fighting for you. While many so-called Progressives are busy hopping on the Ron Paul bandwagon, it is all too obvious that they have either forgotten or are oblivious to the nature of Libertarianism, so-called Anarcho-Capitalism.

Libertarianism: The freedom of slavery

Ron Paul is not your friend. He is not your ally. He is not fighting for you. While many so-called Progressives are busy hopping on the Ron Paul bandwagon, it is all too obvious that they have either forgotten or are oblivious to the nature of Libertarianism, so-called Anarcho-Capitalism.

Much like the various strains of anarchism, Ron Paul’s libertarianism seeks to abolish the oppressive and coercive force which is government (strangely enough Paul aims to accomplish this abolition of government by assuming the throne and taking control of the state). Where Libertarianism and Anarchism split is in addressing the issues of hierarchy and force. While anarchists abhor all oppression as well as the oppressor’s use of violence, libertarians are only concerned with the tyranny and violence of the state. Wherein anarchists would move to assure that no one in any society exerts dominance over a weak majority (as the case would likely be) or minority, libertarians believe that those with access to money, means to production, weapons, and mercenaries, should be allowed to freely exploit the vast masses of humanity.

Today in the United States, Ron Paul seeks to abolish what little services the state still provides for its poor, hungry, and dispossessed. These services were paid for in blood by reformist activists who aimed to alleviate the stress and misery of poverty for the American working class. While as anarchists we must work towards more than simple reforms, we cannot deny the reality that gains such as an eight-hour workday, minimum wage or welfare help those who cannot endure the nature of our survival-of-the-fittest capitalist state. Social and welfare services which have been forced upon the elite and conceded to the working class during the New Deal and the Great Society, amongst other epochs cannot be written off as unimportant.

After nearly thirty years of the tag team of Reagan Conservatism and Clinton Neo-Liberalism, where we have seen many services which should be considered essential eliminated by the administrations of Reagan, Clinton, and Bush I and II. While we cannot realistically think that an administration run by Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama would do anything to change this tide, it should be clear to all that Ron Paul is, with regards to domestic policies, our most dangerous opponent. This brings us to the sole reason that so many self-proclaimed progressives support Ron Paul, his foreign policy.

Ron Paul is the only Republican candidate with a solid opposition to the War in Iraq. Democratic candidate Dennis Kucinich has similarly taken a strong stance against Iraq, and it is likely that many who would normally have supported Kucinich has crossed over to Paul in hopes that his position as a Republican offers a real chance for a viable and broad-anti war coalition candidate. Let me make this as clear as possible, your enemy’s enemy is not your friend. Simply because Ron Paul pays lip service to the opposition to the Iraq War, he does not represent the vast majority of the anti-war movement (it should be noted that Kucinich has had a presence at many anti-war protests throughout the course of the Iraq War).

Perhaps Ron Paul does not fully appreciate the connections between the Iraq War and the corporations and industries which would come to dominate life in a Libertarian America. If only he were so naïve. Paul must realize that the same people who would take control of our nation, were the Libertarians to realize their dream, are those who placed Iraq squarely in their sights and who today are planning a raid for riches in Iran.

Or perhaps Paul is thinking ahead to better days, when transnational companies can stop their work in the third world and the global south, and spend more time at home exploiting workers in U.S. Once Ron Paul could abolish silly little laws such as those protecting workers rights to unionize, guaranteeing safe workplaces, and establishing a minimum wage and the forty hour workweek, then Paul’s cohorts in big business would be free to unleash a reign of tyrannical rule on the (formerly) United States of America, that is to say, without the existence of a federal government offering minimal protection to its citizens.

I don’t know about you, but this author is not swayed by the Ron Paul noise machine.

December 13, 2007

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The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Makhno on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 09:40 AM UTC
Nice piece; was this published somewhere else previously? I've read that Ron Paul has no problem with American military action in Afghanistan, by the way - so much for his anti-war credentials. These criticisms of Ron Paul can be applied in equal measure to all the other Libertarian Party or anarcho-capitalist scum whose names seem to pop up on anarchist sites from time to time, such as Justin Raimondo (anti-war.net), Lew Rockwell, etc.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: bigg on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:13 PM UTC
No, it hasn't been published anywhere else (save for my myspace page-- shameless plug for anarcho-hip-hop www.myspace.com/bigghigg ).

I've been pretty annoyed with this whole "Ron Paul phenomenon" and this morning I just sat down and started writing out the problems that I see with him. I didn't know what to do with it when I had finished so I figured I'd send it in to infoshop to see if they'd post it.

---


http://www.myspace.com/bigghigg

Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: settlefornothing on Saturday, January 05 2008 @ 08:38 PM UTC
I just think that if paul got elected and weakened state power, it would allow for a situation in which the power of capital and it's intent was more clearly realized by the working-class without the mediation of the state. After all the state is intended top preserve the antogism between classes, and when co-opted by capital it develops into a fascism. If Paul could remove the state, it might make for a situation in which class warfare (not only in some violent sense, but in a profound social and psychological sense) could occur.

---
the pretensions of anarchism in its individualist variants have always been laughable - Guy Debord
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 10:06 AM UTC
I've been composing an anti-Paul essay in my head. Maybe I'll write it this weekend.

It should be noted that Ron Paul crossed a picket line run by striking writers. That should be enough for any libertarian to dismiss him as worth supporting in any way.

Chuck
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: personman on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 10:07 AM UTC
Nicely done. I try not to get snarky about this whole thing, but sometimes I'd swear someone is botching lobotomies somewhere...

This echoes some of the sentiment in my blog post, "The Ron Paul-blem:"

Why are so many leftists and radicals so interested in this free-market capitalist, right-wing pseudo-libertarian?

Ron Paul is not an anarchist of any sort or anything remotely close. He is an extremist, right-wing, "laissez-faire" capitalist. The ONLY thing they have in common is some degree of anti-government sentiment. Capitalists oppose government because they want to be in control, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE YOUR FRIENDS. Think about what your life might look like if no one could tell Walmart, or Halliburton, or Microsoft, "No."... It should be obvious that this would probably lead to a sort of wage-slavery that would leave us reflecting back on today's capitalism as "the good ole days."

Ron Paul, like most politicians, is good at speaking out on issues that his position is popular on, and avoiding others...Despite his "Rage Against the Machine" talk and his frequently misleading "anti-big-government" sounding rhetoric, his policies would be the wet dream of the true elite owners of this country.

Probably the most troubling things about him are his economic policies. Libertarians are free market capitalists. These guys are pro-economic globalization, generally in favor of throwing out government regulation of corporations. Things that prevent corporations from dumping poison into our water and air to save a buck, for example. They are opposed to any form of socialism, including universal health care. According to wikipedia his health care proposal is to leave it in the hands of the free market... Horrifying. He opposes undocumented immigration, he opposes gay marriage, he opposes a woman's right to choose, and he waffles on separation of church and state...

His economic policies are basically everything anarchists are against. He is no friend of the people.

The rest is here:
http://www.anarchismtoday.org/Blogs/display/id=5.html
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 11:49 AM UTC
You said: "His economic policies are basically everything anarchists are against. He is no friend of the people." That's none sense. Ron Paul promises to dissolve the IMF. I think our brothers and sisters struggling against the IMF in Latin America would support Ron Paul if they had followed American politics the way we do. Those of us writing on this message board are privileged to have access to the internet.

Militant labour fought for concessions. Poor people now have social programs. True, Ron Paul indeed promises to gut those social programs. However, the founding fathers of American democracy were anarchists. They established government as a tool to be used as a slave. Since 1913, when the elite established the Federal Reserve the reverse is true. Today, the government and corporations use us as tools. Ron Paul promises to dissolve that oppressive instituition, in addition to dissolving the IMF. I support that and IWW member.

Left wing perspectives and radical liberalism flourish abundantly on the internet. In terms of political goals, anti-Washington activists want:

(a) the patriot act retracted,
(b) the homeland security police state dissolved, and
(c) to dissolve the institution responsible for keeping the third world down, the IMF.

Congressman Ron Paul promises to do all these things for us if he is elected in 2008. Why wait for politicians to act on our behalf? The iPod generation can creatively achieve these reasonable political goals with or without Ron Paul with revolutionary direct action in 2008. Once these goals are accomplished via practical aggressive demonstrations and perhaps a general strike, then we can talk about universal Medicare and other concessions: http://youtube.com/watch?v=fuoUNE-3vaA

Sometimes the absolutist anti-capitalist fanaticism on Infoshop disgusts me. Ron Paul is a revolutionary candidate.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: spina_sol on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 12:21 PM UTC
i may taking some kind of bait here, but for the sake of it, atwood99, have you ever actually read a history of the late nineteenth century and the birth of the american anarchist movement?

start with paul avrich's "the haymarket tragedy." that will give you a good start. also, try to find a copy of "the molly maguires," by anthony bimba. that will give you a real idea of what life is actually like under libertarian capitalist rule... bobtail checks, company thugs, company towns, 14 or more hour workdays, no weekend, no worker's comp if you are injured, no insurance of any kind, discrimination and harassment at work rampant, etc. overall hell for workers.

and the state was the perfect (not so) invisible handmaiden, so to speak, for all of this. any time there was a strike, two groups showed up: first, the gunthugs of the boss, second the state militia. and people were routinely killed or massacred for simply asserting a natural right of self-association and self-organization. that is what started anarchism, as a mass movement with roots in this country - those conditions. sure, some ideas were around before that, but the heart of it grew from that deprivation caused by capitalism run amuck in the mid to late 19th century.

ron paul's visions are nothing more than the resurrected dreams of robber barons past.

it's also quite telling, i would say, that neo-nazi sites like stormfront and individual nazis love ron paul, who would pursue an anti-immigrant agenda. stormfront even contributed money to the paul campaign, and when pressed to return, he flatly refused. any politician who finds neo-nazism so morally unobjectionable as to accept donations from fascists as a matter of course - thereby including them firmly in his camp - is no revolutionary, but a reactionary.

he might be against state authority, but like all libertarian capitalists, he's inconsistent: to oppose tyranny in the public sphere of government and leave it unaddressed in the private sphere of work and economics is to simply trade one slavemaster for another.

i used to be a libertarian republican when i was younger, then i thought of myself as a pure libertarian/anarchist. then i actually started reading - and working - and i realized how inconsistent it all was.

good luck on that same path - veritas vincit.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 12:47 PM UTC
I deleted Atwood99's trollbait and scolded them in an email, but evidently this person thinks that they have something intelligible to say here. So I'll leave this up so everybody else can tear this stupid nonsense apart.

If Atwood99 thinks that Infoshop's *mostly anarchist* readers are "rabid anti-capitalists," then you obviously have no clue about what anarchism is really about. No wonder you adhere to this misguided, ignorant idea that Ron Paul is somebody that should be supported.

Perhaps you can explain to the anarchist readers of Infoshop why they should support a guy who crossed the picket lines of the writer's strike?

Chuck0
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:07 PM UTC

> > I deleted Atwood99's trollbait and scolded them in an email,
> > but evidently this person thinks that they have something
> > intelligible to say here. So I'll leave this up so everybody else
> > can tear this stupid nonsense apart.

I appreciate your mercy and forgiveness.

> > If Atwood99 thinks that Infoshop's *mostly anarchist* readers
> > are "rabid anti-capitalists," then you obviously have no clue
> > about what anarchism is really about. No wonder you adhere
> > to this misguided, ignorant idea that Ron Paul is somebody
> > that should be supported.

Anti capitalists I think can agree with Ron Paul on some issues. I already listed 3. Here are 2 more (total 5):
1. Ron Paul promises to dissolve the IMF, allowing Africa and the third world to prosper.
2. Ron Paul promises to bring the troops home NOW
3. Ron Paul promises to abolish the Federal Reserve, a colossal component to America
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 12:52 PM UTC
spina_sol said:
>> start with paul avrich's "the haymarket tragedy." that
>> will give you a good start. also, try to find a copy of "the
>> molly maguires," by anthony bimba. that will give you
>> a real idea of what life is actually like under libertarian
>> capitalist rule... bobtail checks, company thugs, company
>> towns, 14 or more hour workdays, no weekend,
>> no worker's comp if you are injured, no insurance of
>> any kind, discrimination and harassment at work
>> rampant, etc. overall hell for workers.

Ron Paul doesn
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 12:57 PM UTC
There are *no* anarchists out there who support Ron Paul, at least ones that understand what *anarchism* is really about. Given that almost all anarchists oppose voting for any candidate, it's absolutely absurd to come here and argue that anarchists should support Ron Paul.

You claim to be an IWW member. How do you square this with the fact that Ron Paul crossed a picket line run by striking writers?

Chuck0
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:47 PM UTC
I can
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: MagonistaRevolt on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 10:19 AM UTC
holy fuck!
an internet argument about Ron Paul that created heat *and* light??
I think this is an internet first!
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: personman on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:44 PM UTC
"You said: "His economic policies are basically everything anarchists are against. He is no friend of the people." That's none sense. Ron Paul promises to dissolve the IMF. I think our brothers and sisters struggling against the IMF in Latin America would support Ron Paul if they had followed American politics the way we do."

If you think people would even give a shit about the existence of the IMF under the oppression a "libertarian-capitalist" society would impose then I think you don't get it.

Chomsky states it well:

[i]Anarcho-capitalism, in my opinion, is a doctrinal system which, if ever implemented, would lead to forms of tyranny and oppression that have few counterparts in human history. There isn't the slightest possibility that its (in my view, horrendous) ideas would be implemented, because they would quickly destroy any society that made this colossal error. The idea of "free contract" between the potentate and his starving subject is a sick joke, perhaps worth some moments in an academic seminar exploring the consequences of (in my view, absurd) ideas, but nowhere else.

I should add, however, that I find myself in substantial agreement with people who consider themselves anarcho-capitalists on a whole range of issues; and for some years, was able to write only in their journals. And I also admire their commitment to rationality -- which is rare -- though I do not think they see the consequences of the doctrines they espouse, or their profound moral failings.[/i]

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/interviews/9612-anarchism.html

"Militant labour fought for concessions. Poor people now have social programs. True, Ron Paul indeed promises to gut those social programs."

...

"However, the founding fathers of American democracy were anarchists."

They were rich genocidal imperialist slave owners, chasing property the whole way. So by the anarcho-capitalist definition, maybe, but certainly not by my definition.

"Today, the government and corporations use us as tools. Ron Paul promises to dissolve that oppressive instituition, in addition to dissolving the IMF."

How does DE-regulating business help the worker? Elite interests oppose the people. Elite interests use the government and corporations as tools. Ron Paul represents wealth. Ron Paul represents the elite...

It should interest you as an IWW member, to know that right-libertarians in general, consider unions meddling, and oppose them. and that's regular reformist unions...We're not even talking "Abolish the wage system" unions...

The IWW and libertarian-capitalism are complete opposites...that someone could be a supporter of both and not realize this is sadly indicative of how much confusion there is out there.

The IWW believes capitalism should be abolished, Paul believes everything BUT capitalism should be abolished...
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: personman on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 10:12 AM UTC
Noam Chomsky has commented on Ron Paul as well... The source was linked to a znet forum post pasting his comments, some Ron Paul supporters were saying it was a fake or a fraud or not credible, so I Emailed the Prof. for confirmation, which I received.

http://www.anarchismtoday.org/News/article/sid=74.html

Sorry to be all spammy, I meant to put it all in one post, but forgot.

-personman
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: tntreehugger on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 12:15 PM UTC
a "revolutionary candidate?"

gimme a break!

sorry to break the news but there are no "revolutionary candidates" so far in this election. I'm not sure if there have been any since the dang 60's or when Eugene Debs ran from jail in 1920.

that guy Ron Paul has no intention of abolishing government or overthrowing capitalism/corporate rule.

he'd still have us serve state gov'ts which, at least here in the South, are as bad as or worse than, the US gov't when it comes to doing the bidding of the corporate overlords and kickin' the poor's asses to keep us in line.

plus, he's rabidly anti abortion. for pete's sake the man is slightly to the left of Mike Huckabee! Huckabee has some nice economic populist rhetoric, but he thinks the friggin' planet is 6000 yrs old.

in my not so humble opinion, anybody who would bother to run for Prez under the mantle of the corrupt corporate elite parties does not have the integrity to merit the support of radicals.

and those that might run outside the duopoly merit only enough support for a punch of the button on election day while holding one's nose or maybe, MAYBE, a sticker or a button and some fun arguing with liberals at the bars.

remember, when voting can really change things they'll make it illegal!
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 12:47 PM UTC
Tntreehugger said:
>>he's rabidly anti abortion.
That
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: corduroy on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:02 PM UTC
except, ofcourse, those women who happened to be born in the south.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:12 PM UTC
corduroy said:

>> except, ofcourse, those women who happened to be born in the south.

and except, of course, the babies killed in the north
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Cornelius on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:22 PM UTC
a fetus isn't human.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 07:01 PM UTC
Cornelius,

Please... if a fetus isn't human then she isn't pregnant.

A pregnant woman who is injured by the actions of another, causing the death of the fetus will be charged criminally because the fetus has rights.

If you run a red light and kill a pregnant woman there will be two charges... if you run over Hillary Clinton walking a dog they will charge you for killing Hilliary, not the dog. (Insert your own joke here)
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Cornelius on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 07:31 PM UTC
Sorry, but just because some right-wing Christian fanatics have fought hard and effectively (and many times violently) to establish the person-hood of a fetus doesn't make it so. Humans breathe. Humans communicate. Humans have social interactions and personality. And humans are not dependent on one sole person for their existence.

Women have the unconditional right to control their health, their bodies, and their lives.

Please stop polluting our beloved forum with your misogynist drivel. Shouldn't you be registering voters or guarding the border or something?
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 07:00 AM UTC
Wow... I was impressed by the intelligence and genuine exchange of ideas... and then there is this guy.

So Corn... is this really your position? The moment that a person becomes incapacitated and is dependant on another for care, is unable to communicate, etc they become a non-person? If you drop into a Coma and the doctors tell your family that in all likelihood, you will come out of it in a few months... 9 at the most and be perfectly normal... but in the mean time you would be unable to communicate and would have to be kept alive by people and machines. You have no problem with being killed?

Also, your religious test for the right to life shows amazing bigotry. It is equally stupid to say that all atheists are immoral people. I know of several agnostics and atheists involved in the protection of unborn life.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Cornelius on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 11:40 AM UTC
Well, this is a debate about Ron Paul and anarchism, but for some reason I feel like following you down this rabbit hole.

First of all, there is no such thing as an independent human. The difference is that humans can have their needs fulfilled by generally anyone. If a person is in a coma, they need a doctor, but it doesn't matter which one. If the doctor taking care of him has a heart attack and dies, another doctor could do the job. If 10,000 doctors had heart attacks and died, there would still be some one with that ability to take care of that person. If a pregnant woman has a heart attack and dies, that fetus no longer exists. You can't just drop the fetus in another womb. One heart attack cannot kill two people.

As to my supposed bigotry towards religious people, I will say this: I've never read about atheists murdering abortion doctors or blocking women's entrances into health clinics. So what if there are a couple atheists in the anti-choice movement. Its still a right-wing religious movement.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 03:46 PM UTC
"First of all, there is no such thing as an independent human." If so, then your solely dependent on the mother argument is impotent.

"If a person is in a coma, they need a doctor, but it doesn't matter which one." Unless you only have one doctor to begin with or you run out of doctors... the point remains... unless it becomes the right of the sole surviving doctor to "choose" to save the comatose person or not. Your argument is without sound reasoning... cling to it if you wish, it does not make it any more reasonable.

"If a pregnant woman has a heart attack and dies, that fetus no longer exists." Wrong yet again. How many times has a mother died and been kept on life support for the sole purpose of allowing the baby to stay alive and be born, ALIVE from a mother who was clinically dead were it not for the doctor or doctors and medical technology. Are you also for the abortion of a fetus that COULD survive out of the womb if not for the 'choice' of the mother? 9 months? 8? 7? 6 months?... I detect that your criteria is about to change again. What about the child who is born alive after a botched abortion?

"I've never read about atheists murdering abortion doctors or blocking women's entrances into health clinics."
Neither have I and I IN NO SITUATIONS would argue for that to take place. You will never hear me defending those people... that is immoral. If they claim to be Christians and yet murder, they cannot follow that action to the teachings of Jesus.

However, if there is no God, there is no moral law other than what people or cultures make for themselves. But no person or groups of people are any better (without a moral law) than the other, so might makes right. Many "christian" countries and leaders (our current govt comes to mind) have done atrocities in the name of virtue and some even in the name of God. I challenge anyone to track those supposed virtues involved in those particular wars to those attributed to Jesus.

The difference with atheism is that when Stalin (a former bible student turned atheist) was he was following the logical out workings of his belief system. He did not believe in God, no moral law, might makes right and he murders millions. The killing fields are another outworking of the atheistic world view. Now hear me out... THERE IS NOTHING THAT SAYS ATHEIST MUST BECOME LIKE THESE, just as it is true that Christians must become like Christ... in fact, I know of a few professing atheists who are more moral in their own lives than many more dozen profession Christians.


there is nothing "supposed" about your bigotry
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: talonx on Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 05:46 AM UTC
First off, most of your arguments with regards to what corn has said are in fact non sequitor and categorical confusions(e.g. 'sole-dependancy is the same as interdependancy, therefor your argument is contradictory' this is an invalid argument because sole is not equal to inter-).

Additionally, People like stalin built their empires on faith and historical determinism solely by coupling the doctrines of marx(who by the way said that 'if one calls themselves a marxist they have missed the point') with that of the cult of the monarch in russia. Basically stalin kept the structural politics of the previous regime intact because the provided such an excellent means of control (what better group of people to lead than those that refer to themselves as sheep). If you look at the situation in China you will find a very similar background for people like Mao except that the structural politics of the cult of confuscious and ancestor worship were used. Largely, also, one would probably be safe in assuming that Mao and Stalin believed themselves to be the saviors of a cult of 'marxism' and we can than call stalinism a religion...
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: garcia on Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 04:13 PM UTC
Wait, you're knocking the paul fanboy for making an invalid argument then you redefine terms to defend an argument? you're first statement was a valid point, you should have quit while you were ahead.

if you intention was to say that state sponsored or organized hierarchal belief systems are the cause of war and are inherently a bad thing, then sure, no one here would disagree. but if you were claiming secular systems of extreme nationalism are religions because any belief system that shares structural similarities to many organized religions has to be one itself, then wow, I don't know what to say.

and to the paul fanboy:

I'm willing to argue that there IS NO moral law besides what cultures create. what cultures create, though, is written by those with power to maintain their hold on society, even if it's a subconscious creation. faith is twisted until it fits in with the culture's definition of morality while organized religion is used to reinforce these morals and defend it's social structure. God effectively doesn't factor in until those in power have already defined how s/he will.

take a look at Christianity for an example. what did Jesus preach? love everyone else, accept their differences, take what you need and give the rest to others so they can survive, violence is bad, power is bad, greed is bad, etc.
what does modern American Christianity preach? love others so long as they believe what you believe, hate people who don't follow your system of what is acceptable, violence is perfectly acceptable so long as you're doing what's right, follow those in power for both your religion and government as they know what's best, greed is ok so long as you earned it. now ask yourself, who does this current system benefit? it certainly doesn't follow the original script of peace and love.
or if that's uncomfortable for you to think about, what of Islam and the extremists that you probably want to watch the boarders for? Islam is a religion of self-sacrifice for the good of all and personal struggle against your inner demons and individual faults. so who benefits from suicide bombs? certainly not the bombers.

there was a three part special on cnn (yeah mainstream media, pro-u.s. conservative bias, I know, shut up) called god's warriors. despite the media bias, such as too much time on Arab - Islamic violence and not enough on American - Christian violence etc., it's a great watch; going in with a little knowledge of the religions of Abraham it really does reflect how the culture shapes the moral system and how religions are just a defense mechanism for the "believers."


the "moral" of the story:
I'm not saying faith is bad or good, it's an individual thing. so long as you don't force your belief or lack thereof down anyone's throat, we're all peachy keen. on the other hand I AM saying that a culture's morals are not a reflection of religion, but the other way around, and morals are a creation of those in power.


a quick set of definitions:
faith - personal belief structure
religion - organized belief structure
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: talonx on Thursday, December 20 2007 @ 08:42 AM UTC
//but if you were claiming secular systems of extreme nationalism are religions because any belief system that shares structural similarities to many organized religions has to be one itself, then wow, I don't know what to say.//

I was claiming, perhaps not clearly enough that stalin and mao were able to control their masses (quite efficiently and quickly) because they had basically organized a religion around themselves in which the vangaurd cadre were the saviors of the world. My argument was only that this religion of marxism was made possible because a previous religious framework/structure existed which the were able to utilize. This is how religion in general works, building off traditional structures of the past, be it politico-religion or religion organized around the belief in the supernatural and deities.


I know they weren't directed at me but I feel inclined to respond anyways...

//take a look at Christianity for an example. what did Jesus preach? love everyone else, accept their differences, take what you need and give the rest to others so they can survive, violence is bad, power is bad, greed is bad, etc.
what does modern American Christianity preach?//

You can add to that list damnation of those who would court those of the same sex, and a very many other horrible and bigotous things...

//Islam is a religion of self-sacrifice for the good of all and personal struggle against your inner demons and individual faults. so who benefits from suicide bombs? certainly not the bombers.//

Islam and all religions are only made what they are by the people that practice them. Idealist definitions of religion are fine, but fact of the matter is no religions existing on the face of this planet really fall in line with their purported ideals, most of the masses celebrating world-popular religions generally apologize for their religions personal transgressions.

//the "moral" of the story:
I'm not saying faith is bad or good, it's an individual thing. so long as you don't force your belief or lack thereof down anyone's throat, we're all peachy keen. on the other hand I AM saying that a culture's morals are not a reflection of religion, but the other way around, and morals are a creation of those in power.//

I would definately say that if you define 'good' as the minimization of pain strife and struggle and 'bad' as the indifference to pain strife and struggle; than you could definately call faith (belief without evidence) a bad thing, most especially with regards to religion. One doesn't need to force their faith on another to harm them if their faith includes provisions for murdering those who don't believe (islam) or ostricizing those that violate your sexuality strictures (christianity, islam, judaism) or remaining pacifistic in the face of murderous rampagers (buddhism). All the things just mentioned aren't a result, so much, of training to make others believe as they are a result of forcing your reality into conformity with your faith based beliefs. I for one do not tolerate the orthodoy jewish man I used to live above who would rather freeze to death than fix his central heating on a saturday, or seventh day adventists who only treat the converted and refuse to vaccinate, or catholics that back their popes unrealistic view of aids in africa, or buddhists that refuse to till earth for fear that they will hurt earthworms. Such things are deadly and potentially effect us all in their consequences.


//a quick set of definitions:
faith - personal belief structure
religion - organized belief structure//

Faith is a personal belief structure relying on no real world evidence or precedence or reason.

Religion is the organized form of faith. Organized chaos, dystopia, anomie.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: garcia on Friday, December 21 2007 @ 10:55 PM UTC
//I know they weren't directed at me but I feel inclined to respond anyways...//

fire away.

//Faith is a personal belief structure relying on no real world evidence or precedence or reason. Religion is the organized form of faith. Organized chaos, dystopia, anomie.//

they were the definitions I was using. Rather than your path of redefining words after the fact to defend someone else's argument, I'm creating working definitions as I use them. For my response faith is just a personal belief system. Just a potentially neutral belief system.

be

Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: talonx on Tuesday, December 25 2007 @ 02:24 PM UTC
//they were the definitions I was using. Rather than your path of redefining words after the fact to defend someone else's argument, I'm creating working definitions as I use them. For my response faith is just a personal belief system. Just a potentially neutral belief system.

be
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: garcia on Tuesday, December 25 2007 @ 08:46 PM UTC
I'm f'ing tired. I'll get to the rest when i get to it, but...

//Please, actually read and attempt to understand what I write. You are quite correct when you say you could be wrong...and you are quite so when it comes to your analysis of myself...indeed I saw your analysis as more of a character assasination than anything else, I don't see how it was necessary or appropriate given the conversation.//

I do see how it's necessary. You're a hypocrite, and I'm simply calling you out on it.
Your effectively claim that all personal faiths, no matter what they may be, are bad and you condemn people for having them - yet you have your own beliefs, both spiritually and socially. You berate me for a "character assassination" while making an attack of your own in the subcontext. You argue semantics to cut down my response while making factual errors in yours.

I welcome your point of view, I really do, but you have to acknowledge that you're being needlessly hostile and your hypocrisy.

now I'm going to bed.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: talonx on Wednesday, December 26 2007 @ 09:41 AM UTC
//I do see how it's necessary. You're a hypocrite, and I'm simply calling you out on it.
Your effectively claim that all personal faiths, no matter what they may be, are bad and you condemn people for having them - yet you have your own beliefs, both spiritually and socially. You berate me for a "character assassination" while making an attack of your own in the subcontext. You argue semantics to cut down my response while making factual errors in yours.//

Next time don't respond at all till you can respond on mass, it's underhanded to continue to attack my character before even responding to anything I have said with regards to our argument.

But yes I do condemn all beliefs which do not rely on evidence, every single one of them, that would mean I condemn faith (as in the belief in something without evidence). My claim, and you have yet to show how it is hypocriful or what factual errors I have made, was written very straightforwardly, it stands regardless of how you feel about it because you have yet to refute it I am sorry if my hypothesis bothers you but that isn't the point now is it....

Also, I have no spiritual beliefs because as we stand in the 21st century we have no evidence for spirituality...had I spiritual beliefs that would truly be hypocriful. I do have my own beliefs as does everybody else, all of which are based on evidence and critical analyses. You must have missed the part where I told you that you were making categorical confusions, because you did it again with regards to equating religious/spiritual belief with belief based on evidence (they are fundamentally different claiming they are similar is like claiming that talking to someone on a cellular phone is the same as taking to someone via telepathy).

Semantics is fully important when discussing culture is it not? I am not responsible for what you read into the subcontext, I was simply pointing out that you had made categorical errors and was directing you to philosophy that would back my claim and get us on the same plane of discussion, I feel like you misunderstand me because you don't quite understand what I am talking about. I am sorry if that came across as insult, it was not intended as such.

Once more, as for factual errors, I would like them cited in detail or at least examples given, I have done you at least that favour in hopes that you would respond to my criticism.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Thursday, December 20 2007 @ 04:55 PM UTC
I've gotta say this is one of the most reasonable places I have ever got to discuss this stuff with... Thanks.

"..take a look at Christianity for an example. what did Jesus preach? love everyone else, accept their differences, take what you need and give the rest to others so they can survive, violence is bad, power is bad, greed is bad, etc."

Very good... and too many "Christians" fail to reflect His teachings. But Jesus did not claim the authority to teach these things appart from the SOURCE of His moral Authority... His Father in Heaven. And he did accept differences, but not any old approach. He wept over the city of David because she would not turn from her wicked ways and recognize that the day had arrived. (off point, sorry) My point is HE appealed to a higher authority, not a man made one and not his own. Also, there is a rule in logic... never judge a philosophy by it's followers. But I also understand the other truth... That Christians are going to have to act a lot more redeemed before others can believe in their Redeemer. Guilty as charged.


"what does modern American Christianity preach? love others so long as they believe what you believe, hate people who don't follow your system of what is acceptable, violence is perfectly acceptable so long as you're doing what's right, follow those in power for both your religion and government as they know what's best, greed is ok so long as you earned it."

Again, you stated pretty well some of the teachings of Jesus and even better the actions of some people that you identify as belonging to the American Christian church. Those actions are all too common and IN NO WAY can be traced back to the teachings of Jesus. I am most certainly a Christian and I can rail on and on about those very things, including our current president, current war, current fiscal policies, etc., etc.,...

"now ask yourself, who does this current system benefit? it certainly doesn't follow the original script of peace and love."

Dude, you sound like you are in my Bible study group. You could not be more correct. i am not sure you understand just how right you are. This country was based on Christian Values and the Constitution and the Rule of Law... All of which have gone terribily off course with disasterous results. It was never perfect, but I argue it was about as good as man could do and we need to get back to the basics. That is why I support Dr Ron Paul. And NO that doesn't mean that I think slavery was a fine and moral thing. Mankind has issues... BIG issues and none of us are perfect.

Thanks again.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: CaseyFord on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 05:48 PM UTC
This mofo for real?
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Cornelius on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:06 PM UTC
Ron Paul believes in liberty for middle class white men, plain and simple. He is staunchly anti-immigrant and anti-choice. If Ron Paul ended the war in Iraq, he'd probably put the troops on the US-Mexico border like the Minutemen want (anti-war coalitions with the right lend legitimacy to some very racist reactionary groups, which we must be wary of). Also, his opposition to the IMF is not because it exploits people in the third world but rather because it can be, at times, restrictive to American business interests and seems to threaten middle America's entitlement to high paying jobs.

Also, to say that the Federal Reserve is the root of oppression in America is simply absurd. Must I remind people of the 130 years of U.S. enslavement of Africans, genocide of indigenous peoples, and bashing of immigrants, before the federal reserve ever existed? The founding fathers were not anarchists because anarchists don't own fucking slaves. Things won't get better until people pull their heads out of their asses.

Fuck Ron Paul and his right-wing ideology of free markets and white male entitlement.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:31 PM UTC
Cornelius said:
>> Also, Ron Paul
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Guy on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:58 PM UTC
Atwood, you also said:

"How the exactly is the IMF restrictive to America business interests? I
believe the opposite is true. The IMF is the bastion of neoliberalism. I
think it
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: personman on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:52 PM UTC
"Also, his opposition to the IMF is not because it exploits people in the third world but rather because it can be, at times, restrictive to American business interests and seems to threaten middle America's entitlement to high paying jobs."

I figured if he was opposed to it, there was a reason like this...

"Fuck Ron Paul and his right-wing ideology of free markets and white male entitlement."

Yup, nailed it.

He's not selling freedom, he is selling rich-powerful-white-people-freedom. There is a big difference.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: A17 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:20 PM UTC
I didn't even know that anarchists supporting Ron Paul was an issue. I'm involved in an anarchist organization, and everyone I know takes "non-voting" about as seriously as they take going to church. Ron Paul could come on stage with a circle-A branded on his forehead and they still wouldn't go near the polls. Moving on.

I think a extremely important point a lot of anarchists seem to miss is that the State perpetuates capitalism. This is a fundamental difference from say, Marxist thought, which proposes the opposite, and, in my opinion, is nonsense. Would there be corporations if government was eviscerated? The short answer is no, because what makes a corporation a corporation, after all? The State classifying it as such. Basically, the corporatist piracy that we see today, which as others pointed out has been running rampant in the past decades, would never have been possible if not for the government.

Even if you look at the so called government "reforms", like Sherman Anti Trust, you still see the same pattern: business working behind the scenes to destroy competition. Most of the reforms today, like the minimum wage hike, are just feel good populist charades. Adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage has been declining since the 70s.

Would any of this change under a Ron Paul candidacy? Probably not. Minarchism is not going to end the government, or it probably won't, anyway. It's not going to end corporatism and theft, either. All this foolish hope for Ron Paul is just perpetuating the "cult of the presidency", the idea that some kind of Messiah can save us from our troubles. This of course is wrong. So, basically the author of the piece is correct in that you shouldn't vote or support Paul. Just keep in mind that someday the welfare state WILL have to be dismantled.

*I do have one point to make with the author: although there are many, many things you can criticize mr. Paul on, one of them is not being phoney on Iraq. He has taken a principled stand on Iraq since the beginning, and it's hardly "lip service".
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Cornelius on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:31 PM UTC
Capitalism and the state have a two way relationship, but its doesn't mean that one couldn't exist without the other. Capitalism at its root is the notion that capital is held in private hands, and that those with capital are in the best position to accrue more capital (you've got to spend money to make money; and if you don't have money to start with it means you rot). With the state, you get the inequality, violence and oppression you see today. Without the state, ExxonMobil would still be able to exist, they would just have to hire Blackwater to do their dirty work, instead of the US Army; the power relationships, inequality and violence would remain intact. Capitalism is, at its heart, a system whereby one group has power over another group, regardless of whether it is a corporation or just a bunch of rich people.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: A17 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:42 PM UTC
Blackwater would not be able to protect businesses like ExxonMobile from "the people". No way in hell. I don't buy this crap the AnCaps put out that if government left corporations would be able to maintain order.

They wouldn't.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Cornelius on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:49 PM UTC
I never said anything about order. It would probably look more like a mafia racket, anything but orderly, but of great benefit to a few. We already see the private sector picking up where state violence is insufficient to meet the needs of wealthy interests. Blackwater in Iraq, New Orleans, possibly (not for sure) soon on the border.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: bigg on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:38 PM UTC
With regards to the "lip service" comment:

I remember when I went down to the NYC anti-war protest in March of 2004 I looked up at one point and said "shit, there's Dennis Kucinich". And there he was, ten feet away from me. And from what I've seen/read he has maintained a presence at many anti-war rallies. I appreciate that.

As far as I know, Ron Paul is a vocal critic of the war but I certainly don't think he's ever gone as far as protesting or taking direct action against it. So that's what I meant by lip service, he talks about it.

---


http://www.myspace.com/bigghigg
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:28 PM UTC
I am rather concerned when any person decides to misrepresent another person's position on a given topic. It leads me (rightly or wrongly) to the conclusion that the author either did not research enough to get the facts out of apathy, ignorance or design.

The author here is obviously not apathetic or ignorant.

Dr Paul has plenty of issues that I do not agree with. He is open, honest and even blunt about his position and I do not need to manufacture, manipulate or blur his statements for me to take up reasonable opposition to them.

Ron Paul knows that we cannot afford to continue along the path we are on (9.3 trill in debt and raising 1 million + a minute) A devalued dollar and our liberties shrink in indirect proportion to the growth and spending of Big Govenment. A war costing Trillions by the time we are done and NO WAY TO PAY FOR IT ALL... and that is not even mentioning the cost in lives.

If I send you a dollar to help you with your medical care, you actullay receive a dollar. If the government taxes a dollar in order to pay for your medical care, they 1st take their cut and you probably get $.60 of that dollar.

Dr Paul wants you to keep what you make, save BILLIONS by bringing our Military home from all over the globe, cut government spending and thereby being able to afford to take care of US. It is a lie to imply he wants to toss people out in the street.

It is another lie to imply that he is only using the 'limited government and limited presidential powers' approach to get elected to the most powerful office in the world and then use those powers for himself. If you spend any time listening to him, you cannot help but hear him say he does not want government to run your lives, he doesn't want to run your lives. He wants us all to have liberty and government should not take from you to give to me... but>>>

He also states that we have had generations of people who have been conditioned to believe the only way they can survive is with the government taking care of them. He knows there are many people woho are in no position to plan for their own retirement in lieu of Social Security today... same with medical and welfare issues. It is our responsabliity to care for those who cannot care for themselves. We can only do this if we radically change what we see the roll of government is.

Hate or disparage Dr Paul on HIS merit. No need to make up reasons why you don't want to support a man of consistant and unmatched integrity who supports the US CONSTITUTION.

Never has he accepted a dime of lobbist money.
Never voted for a tax increase.
Never taken a tax payer paid junket.
Has refuesd to accept the Congressional pension as a result of his 20 years as a Congressman.

How does your candidate match up?
Hate him for who he is, but be honest about it.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:41 PM UTC
A reply to WyoWill: You
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: bigg on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:49 PM UTC
That's what I was getting at. Yeah, Ron Paul could seem great at first, but once he makes government even smaller then the corporations will lack what little restrictions the government now places on them. This would lead the vast majority of us only further towards slavery. The only anti-statist philosophy which aims to liberate all peoples is anarchy, not libertarianism.

---


http://www.myspace.com/bigghigg
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:58 PM UTC
I guess this essay is going to bring lots of Ron Paul supporters to this website. If that's the case, let me point out some things to these visitors about Infoshop, anarchism and our take on Ron Paul.

1) This is an anarchist run by anarchists and anti-statist leftists. We don't give a damn about who is running for office of the world's leading terrorist state. The election of one person to the top leadership position in the world isn't going to bring about anarchism, not to mention more liberty of any kind. Anarchists don't vote, so why are you asking us to support a candidate of *any* kind?
2) Asking anarchists to support Ron Paul, or any other person, for President of the United States, is more likely to elicit laughter than anger. Anarchism is about the abolition of states and politicians. Why in the hell would we want to support another rich white guy who wants to be the Leader of the World? If we thought that this was a viable strategy towards our goals, WE WOULDN'T BE ANARCHISTS.
3) Ron Paul would get rid of the Department of Homeland Security? Big whoop-de-do! That takes us back to 2001. What is Ron Paul's plan to get rid of the FBI, CIA, NSA, and all other spy agencies and police departments? How is he going to dismantle the government? Anarchists want all of these things to go away TOMORROW. We certainly aren't stupid enough to think that any ONE PERSON, inside or outside of the political system can achieve those goals. The Dept. of Homeland Security is just the first thing that needs to be abolished.
4) What is Ron Paul's plan to get rid of capitalism? Since anarchists are anti-capitalists, we aren't going to support anybody who is fully anti-capitalist. Of course, we don't think that capitalism can be abolished through voting or by "libertarian" politicians, thus is is even more absurd to ask anarchists to support Ron Paul.

Chuck0
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: theshadowranger on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 07:12 PM UTC
Keeping in mind that this is an anarchist website, I won't go and list a bunch of reason why you should support ron paul or tell you why I do. Voting goes against what you stand for.
I would only ask you to research his position more and consider two things.

1st. If a ron paul presidency would only help out rich white men and big corporations as some here have claimed, then why has the main stream media, which is owned by those same rich white men, clearly tried to censor, ridicule, and ignore ron paul. They only talk to him or about him when they have no choice. Ron Paul supporters had to raise 4.3 million dollars in one day just to get some decent press. If the big corporations would benefit so much from him, shouldn't they be embracing him and giving him as much air time as possible?

2nd. One of the reasons that ron paul is labeled as crazy by the main stream media is because he supports getting rid of most of the federal government. I'm for small government but I think that he wants to get rid of way too much governmnt. I think he is as close to anarchism as you are going to get.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: spina_sol on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 02:59 AM UTC
for the sake of other people who have come to this site from elsewhere and are reading this, in response:

1 - neoconservatives, neoliberals and the current established power structure don't like ron paul because he doesn't fit into their script. the script was supposed to go: rudy giuliani, mitt romney or mike huckabee challenge either hillary clinton or barack obama. anyone else is a supporting character. also, the corporate media resents the internet because they cannot control expression on it. this election is supposed to be billed as a dramatic continuation of bush's policies or as a restoration of the democrats. anything else gets sidelined. (added to the fact that paul stands for a lot of other things plenty of people - in power or not - find objectionable.)

2 - if you oppose speed limits and say the solution is removing everybody's brake pads from their cars, then you are crazy. that is essentially what paul is saying - he doesn't intend to replace state checks on corporate power with anything. anarchists would do away with the state and replace it with decentralized and popular power, or directly democratic ground-up free associations. if you say that corporations should be free to do as they wish, then workers and communities should be free to organize without harassment, against corporations, and assert their rights without threat of force from hired thugs. that is just a matter of being consistent.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 06:31 PM UTC
Atwood99,

Thank you. I am frankly not accustom to reasoned and rational thought on these things. I am happy to try and learn something here.

I may be putting some words in Ron Paul's mouth, but I don't think so... and he certainly does not need my help, but...

The purpose of drastically reducing the size and scope of Govt is not to leave a vacuum for Big Industry to step into, but rather for people to take responsability and have US step into taking control of our own lives and futures.

I know there are a lot of sheep out there, but someone has to lead by example and take responsablitiy for ourselves. We also need to take away any incentive for those who are ABLE to work toward being responsable, but choose not to.

I do not believe RP is the entire answer... an involved, infromed and educated population is... I also know that is not too terribly likely to happen either.

thanks again
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Saturday, December 15 2007 @ 12:05 AM UTC
Atwood,

I have spent the last hour or so reading your FAQ's as advised...LOTS of info to dig through. While I have found some common ground, it seems (to my very limited knowledge about this philosophy) to be contradictory in many ways.

Are these following views accurate:
I am free to live my life as I see fit?
I am responsable for me, you are responsable for you?
True Authority, real or implied, can only result from my decision to submit out of pure choice and not any sort of coercion or force.

I am most interested in trying to figure out the position on social issues without authority or requirements being imposed upon us.

thank you for your time and I apologize for 1st grade level questions.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Cornelius on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:42 PM UTC
Let's see...
I've never has he accepted a dime of lobbist money.
I've never voted for a tax increase.
I've never taken a tax payer paid junket.
I have refuesd to accept the Congressional pension.

Also,
I've never supported any war (not since I was in Jr. High anyway), especially not the one in Iraq.
I've never supported the PATRIOT ACT.
I've never spoken against people's freedom of movement.
I've never spoken against reproductive freedom.
I've never spoken against sexual freedom.

Damn, my candidate matches up great (better actually)!

Whoever you vote for, government wins.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 06:40 PM UTC
Cornelius

"Also,
I've never supported any war (not since I was in Jr. High anyway), especially not the one in Iraq.
I've never supported the PATRIOT ACT.
I've never spoken against people's freedom of movement.
I've never spoken against reproductive freedom.
I've never spoken against sexual freedom."

Of course you know that Dr Paul NEVER supported the Iraq war... Never! Not just since it went bad, but from long before.

Ditto on the Pat Act
Ditto on the freedom of movement
Abortion is a matter he opposes but says it is NOT a Federal issue, but a State matter to decide.
And sexual freedom is also a matter for the states.

I'm pleased you do not take any of the Congress' pension, neither do I. The difference is Dr Paul has been in Congress for 10 terms and I don't know of anyone who would say he has not earned it. He chooses NOT TO TAKE IT because of his commitment to his values and principles.

Disagree with his views... don't pretend that you or I are more qualified based on the statements you made.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Cornelius on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 07:56 PM UTC
WyoWill,

Good to hear Ron Paul never supported the war in Iraq. What about Afghanistan? Kosovo? Iraq the first time (and the subsequent sanctions)? Panama? Grenada? Nicaragua? Iran? Lebanon? Chile? Vietnam? Korea? How did Ron feel about all these and the other imperial ventures of Uncle Sam?

If Ron supports freedom of movement, then why is he so tough on the border? Why doesn't he want migrant people fully included and participating in mainstream society, regardless of how they got here?

States' rights is a smoke screen with which the ruling class hides and defends their domination of traditionally marginalized people. I suppose school segregation and slavery are state issues as well? States do not have the right any more than the federal government to regulate how people live. A woman's choice about her body belongs to her, not the state. My sexuality is a matter for me, not the state or any one else. Please stop defending Ron's bigotry with "states' rights." You sound like you were born in Mississippi 165 years ago.

Finally, my point was not that I would make a better president. It's hard to excel at a position that I don't believe should exist. My point was that no politician, bureaucrat, legislative body, judge, board of directors, executive, foreman, cop, or manager has a right to determine what my life will be, or anyone else's. That Ron seeks political power is grounds enough for me to despise him. That he seems particularly interested in maintaining and even strengthening and expanding a number of models of domination and oppression (through his policies and ideas on immigration, abortion, sexual freedom, imperialism, capitalism, etc) makes him fucking scum.

Again, please stop polluting our forum with you leader worship.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 04:32 PM UTC
Ron Paul did vote to go after those responsible for 9/11... BUT NO NATION BUILDING! You go arrest a murder, try him and sentence him,... you don't wipe out his family, home town and national govt.

NO WAR (CHECK IT OUT) on Iraq (EITHER TIME), Kosovo, Panama, Grenada, Nicaragua, Iran, Lebanon, Chile, Vietnam, Korea and a few you never mentioned... Venezuela for one. He is absolutely opposed to nation building and the interventionist foreign policy. This part you may actually be in agreement with Dr Paul,... again, check it out.

Freedom of movement applies to US citizens... one of the very few Constitutional responsibilities Dr Paul actually believes the Govt should be doing, but NOT a fence. Yes he did vote for the bill that included the fence, but only because it was the only bill that did not include amnesty. His answer to this problem is available for you to find if you so desire.

You do not believe in true freedom of movement unless you can assure me you would not object to me and a few friends coming over to your home whenever we wished. I promise to be productive and I won't eat that much... "Hey, Cornelius? Where do you keep the toilet paper? Oh, never mind, I found it. Dude, do you have any air-spray, matches, anything?"

Agreed, State's rights have the potential to be just as corrupt as a Federal one, but I know my congressman and my Governor... I can drive to Cheyenne and make my opinion known much easier than the trek to Washington. I also have a much better chance to effect my state's laws and political structure than I do on a National scale. I will grant you that even in my state of slightly more than half a mill population, it is still difficult, but it is better than the strong Fed system.

"I suppose school segregation and slavery are state issues as well?" No those are LIBERTY, Equal Protection and Rule of Law issues. A state could legalize Marihuana because the Constitution does not give the Federal Gov authority in that area... Life and Liberty are areas that the Gov must provide protection to all her citizens. I again agree this will not be perfect... not until all people are perfect do we have a chance and slavery existed at the time the Constitution was written. Again, people suck and nothing is perfect. I would prefer something a little less imperfect.

"States do not have the right any more than the federal government to regulate how people live." agreed

"A woman's choice about her body belongs to her, not the state." Except where the LIBERTY and LIFE of the child is at stake.

"My sexuality is a matter for me, not the state or any one else." Agreed again. No matter what I may feel about it, the Constitution gives you the right to do as you wish... As long as my freedom to act how I wish and your's to do likewise do not directly effect the other, the State and the Fed Gov need to stay out of it. OK?

Now that I have explained it, do I still sound like I was born somewhere you do not like?

"Finally, my point was not that I would make a better president. It's hard to excel at a position that I don't believe should exist. My point was that no politician, bureaucrat, legislative body, judge, board of directors, executive, foreman, cop, or manager has a right to determine what my life will be, or anyone else's." With the above "live and let live" caveat stated... I AGREE! So does Ron Paul!

"That Ron seeks political power is grounds enough for me to despise him." He has stated he wants the position to REDUCE the size, scope, role and POWER of the Presidency and his entire career reflect that. You have lumped Ron Paul into the entire group of shmucks that are in the race from both parties. I am not sure you have really looked or listened much to what he has to say.

I also am hopeful that Ron Paul can get people to start thinking for themselves and taking care of themselves. I do not like people depending on the Gov for anything. Also, Ron Paul does not need to be president for the nation to survive. However, I do think his approach and many of his ideas MUST survive and be put into action.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: bigg on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:45 PM UTC
This is an anarchist web site, and as such I sent in one anarchist's opinion of Ron Paul. I do not have a candidate.

I notice that two of the vocal critics of this article joined infoshop earlier today, this leads me to believe that they are not anarchists but rather Ron Paul supporters who want to get their two cents in. I would never want to deny to you the right to do so but I want to reiterate the fact that this is an anarchist website and as such provides a forum for anarchist thought and discussion. That's probably why we do not see eye to eye on this.

---


http://www.myspace.com/bigghigg
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: spina_sol on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:03 PM UTC
how does my "candidate" match up?

...

this is an anarchist website. RTFFAQ.

but yeah, let's go to the issues, and set this straight.

(i'm not in favor of censoring this thread, because this is being read by more people on the internet than just regular infoshop goers. it would be good for people to hear why ron paul is nothing more than a capitalist shill with a large following among neo-nazis.)

* he does not support equal rights for minorities. he would refuse to investigate private schools which deny applicants on the basis of race (and one can assume, by legal precedent - that this would apply to any businesses and establishments as well, leading right back to segregation...), wants to ban affirmative action, would not enforce brown v. the board of education, and would deny people born in this country to immigrant parents US citizenship.

* he is adamantly anti-choice, and has sponsored four separate bills to declare that life begins at conception.

* he wants to abolish the minimum wage, abolish OSHA, and gut social security.

* in addition to having a flat tax of 10%, he would take away things like earned income credit, disallow income tax credits to individuals who are not corporations, and homestead (typically rent) tax rebates.

* he wants to repeal the clean air act, the soil and water conservation act, allow no taxes on fuel producers, allow off-shore drilling, allow drilling in the arctic, allow clear-cutting of old growth forests, and have no penalties for industrial polluters.

* he has blocked the dismantling of nuclear missile silos and is a clear proponent of increasing us nuclear weapon capacity.

* he is opposed to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender rights. he supported the marriage protection act of 2004. a direct quote from one piece of legislation he authored:
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:40 PM UTC
This is the best case against Ron Paul as a candidate who stands for oppression.

The only silly comment made here is that neo-Nazis support a libertarian. Since when do Nazis support democracy?
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:59 PM UTC
By contrast, here is the best case in favour of Ron Paul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG2PUZoukfA

The part which stands out most in my mind is at 3:24 until 3:40 in which that university student is tazered for his political views.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: spina_sol on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 03:13 AM UTC
first, nazis came to power in germany because they won an election.

second, google "ron paul stormfront." the first link is titled "Why We Should Support Ron Paul."

here's a better list of all the support - and reasons for it - that ron paul has been receiving from white supremacists:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_ron_paul_campaign_and_its.html

i think this can set to rest any doubts of where nazis stand on his candidacy: they support it enthusiastically.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Tuesday, December 18 2007 @ 10:02 AM UTC
Ron Paul loves the constitution while neo-Nazis hate it.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Saturday, December 15 2007 @ 01:13 AM UTC
I have been reading the FAQ, thank you for the advise... I have more Q as a result... sorry if my learning curve is bothersome.

Issues to make straight. Again, if you hate RP at least have his positions right so you have an accurate basis on which to hate him, and me or anyone else who might disagree with you. No straw men please.

1st "* he does not support equal rights for minorities. he would refuse to investigate private schools which deny applicants on the basis of race (and one can assume, by legal precedent - that this would apply to any businesses and establishments as well, leading right back to segregation...), wants to ban affirmative action, would not enforce brown v. the board of education, and would deny people born in this country to immigrant parents US citizenship."

All minorities or majorities are without special status in a perfect RP world. US Citizenship is the only class... and race, creed, sex or sexual pref, etc., all enjoy the same liberty and protection of the Constitution. As for the list of things he would ban or not enforce, please understand Dr Paul has stated many times that issues he is personally for he has voted against and issues he finds personally wrong he has voted for based on the CONSTITUTIONALLITY of the issue, not his own view, per se. So the issues you have listed (IF accurate) are the result of his defense of the constitution and the VERY limited roll of the fed govt. Affirmative action places citizens in classes within our society and wrongly elevates some over others. Agreed many have been discriminated against and that is wrong and unconstitutional. So is affirmative action.

He is a fan of Rosa Parks, but he voted against giving her a gold medal in recognition of her role in civil rights... He said "That was very difficult for me because I have great respect for (Ms Parks). I believe in civil disobedience and she is a personal hero of mine..." He went on to explain the reason he voted against giving her the medal is he believes it is wrong for the Govt to take money (taxes) away from one citizen to give to another.

So he approached his fellow Congressmen and women and said what a great idea it is to recognize Ms Parks and proposed that they all kick in $100 to pay for the medal themselves. No takers and they all (except Dr Paul) agreed to take your money and mine to give to another US citizen. Personally, I would have chipped in for such a nobel cause, but no one asked me.

As far as your last point "...would deny people born in this country to immigrant parents US citizenship" It would not be retro-active, but rather as part of addressing the current problem of a system that rewards people for breaking and not respecting our National Laws in order to benefit from our National Laws. That is also punishing those who are attempting to get into our country legally.

2nd "* he is adamantly anti-choice, and has sponsored four separate bills to declare that life begins at conception." Yes, and again... that is a Constitutional issue of protecting the Life and Liberty of the unborn child. I have had a running debate with Cornelius if you care to see my arguements so we don't have to re-invent the wheel.

3rd "* he wants to abolish the minimum wage, abolish OSHA, and gut social security." Sort of, he wants to make all of these unnecessary by free market and open trade (not managed trade) and again, these are areas that the Constitution is clear in NOT FOR THE FED GOV to mess with. And am I to understand that you think the Federal government is doing a fine job with the above listed programs as it is?

4th "* in addition to having a flat tax of 10%, he would take away things like earned income credit, disallow income tax credits to individuals who are not corporations, and homestead (typically rent) tax rebates." WHAT?!? Dr Paul wants to abolish the income tax altogether! If there was no income tax there would be no earned income tax credit, etc., because we paid no income tax by which you want to be credited for. Flat tax of 10%? Well, it is better than what we have, but to quote Dr Paul "Well, I am for a form of the flat tax, but I want it real flat,... like 0%"

5th "* he wants to repeal the clean air act, the soil and water conservation act, allow no taxes on fuel producers, allow off-shore drilling, allow drilling in the arctic, allow clear-cutting of old growth forests, and have no penalties for industrial polluters." These again are free market and NOT BIG GOVT areas issues to work out. Dr Paul is NOT for all the issues you listed, just like he is not "for" legalized prostitution and drugs, but he believes that as free people you have the right to make those decisions as long as they do not harm my right to live the way I do. Personal Property and Personal Responsability are ideals, but knowing there are those who will step over that line is a place for the courts to deal with case by case and not the Fed Govt to exercise supreme authority over.

6th "* he has blocked the dismantling of nuclear missile silos and is a clear proponent of increasing us nuclear weapon capacity." Check and list your basis for this. He IS for a strong National defense, but NO FOREIGN INTERVENTION AND/OR NATION BUILDING. Go to war ONLY if attacked and ONLY with a declaration of war from congress... NOT a UN resolution.

7th "* he is opposed to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender rights. he supported the marriage protection act of 2004. a direct quote from one piece of legislation he authored:
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: nameless on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:07 PM UTC
Lets look at just a few of these comments.

"Ron Paul knows that we cannot afford to continue along the path we are on (9.3 trill in debt and raising 1 million + a minute) A devalued dollar and our liberties shrink in indirect proportion to the growth and spending of Big Govenment... We cannot afford to continue along the path we are on."

I don't think I have ever heard an anarchist phrase anything like this. Who is this we? Since it implies you are a part of this... are you enjoying the ride.

"Dr Paul wants you to keep what you make, save BILLIONS by bringing our Military home from all over the globe, cut government spending and thereby being able to afford to take care of US. It is a lie to imply he wants to toss people out in the street."

But is it a lie to imply that you never heard the phrase, "US Out Of North America."

"He wants us all to have liberty and government should not take from you to give to me."

So a presidential candidate explains that they will give us liberty? Oh yeah?

"We can only do this if we radically change what we see the roll of government is."

Well what is the roll of government in your eyes?

"Hate or disparage Dr Paul on HIS merit. No need to make up reasons why you don't want to support a man of consistent and unmatched integrity who supports the US CONSTITUTION."

Thats interesting. I'm just learning that most anarchists are very fond of the Constitution. That makes a whole lot of sense.

And last but not least, "How does your candidate match up?"

That is one of the most telling. My question is... why is this person on this board? The commenter doesn't even understand the discussion. Why not go onto an NRA website and talk about climate change?
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: WyoWill on Saturday, December 15 2007 @ 02:45 AM UTC
Nameless,

the 'we' I am refering to is US citizens and/or those imposed upon by the US Govt. Whoever is paying the bills. I think you and I fit that def. of 'we'. And I am enjoying the exchange of ideas and the learning. Am I in the wrong spot to learn about what you believe and discuss different views? If so, I apologize and will move on. There sure are a lot of rules to follow to be a anarchist.

>>But is it a lie to imply that you never heard the phrase, "US Out Of North America." I would never imply that, I have never heard that statement, but let me make it clear: US sovereignty is a must in my view, but not at the cost of isolationism. Can I come to your house to live and impose upon you? Or should I honor your right to your own home and to live how you see fit? If you invite me over is up to you, do you require anything from your house guests?

>>So a presidential candidate explains that they will give us liberty? Oh yeah? Not so much give us liberty (he doesn't possess it to dole out like so much candy at Halloween) but get Govt out of our lives and thereby restoring what was rightfully ours to begin with. Radical huh?

government in my eyes is meant to equally protect all it's citizens rights as equals (no one group is elavated or favored over another) and protect national interests for the protection of our liberties and not the limiting of them on the basis or promise of providing me with more 'safety and security'. It is easier to say what govt should not be.

They should not be creating or allowing problems to be created and then mandate so called solutions that only grow the size, scope and power of the federal govt and restrict our rights, liberties, etc..

I would very much like to know what you view is... I don't mean to be antagonistic, I am trying to learn something here.

>>Thats interesting. I'm just learning that most anarchists are very fond of the Constitution. That makes a whole lot of sense.
Good, I guess there is some common ground. I don't know if I speak "anarchist" but I do speak "constitution". and again, I am willing to learn.

>>That is one of the most telling. My question is... why is this person on this board? The commenter doesn't even understand the discussion. Why not go onto an NRA website and talk about climate change?
I guess I am guilty. I don't understand and I have read some of you FAQ's (Holy crap, there's a lot of info) but I am asking here. Do you require membership or alligence of some sort before you can as a question or propose a thought?
If your purpose is to grumble and whine about the world without outside interferance, I will let you be. I would like to hear real people talk about and defend their beliefs. It is obvious that you have some, I just want to hear them and weigh their merit.

Since asking the question about your candidate, I have come to understand that is a stupid question... Like going to a Passover celebration and asking if they are serving ham.... I do apologize for my lack of understanding. But can you help me out here? What are you proposing we do?


Again, there sure are a lot of rules to follow to be a anarchist. Little help?

Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: nameless on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 01:49 PM UTC
I must admit this conversation really surprised me. There are so many different things about several of these comments that just completely caught me off guard. I know I'm not going to address all of them; there were a little too many. But some of them I think are fairly important.


Somebody stated that the constitution was designed to "protect the people from the government." It was also stated that "the founding fathers" had anarchist sentiments, or something along those lines. I'm not really sure if these comments were sarcastic or what not, but I really hope so. I think it has become rather common knowledge, at least in anarchist circles, that the constitution was designed to protect the rich, property owning minority from the rest of the population. In regards to the comment about the anarchist American founding fathers, well, I don't even know where that idea came from. At face value it is just completely absurd. I don't even really see the need to delve into the historical record; it is just simply silly.


I also don't even understand why there needs to be a debate about Ron Paul. It is also rather silly. If we look at the presidential debates seriously there are a few simple conclusions I think we can reach. Whether it is Ron Paul, Kucinich, Obama, Edwards, and a few others; we can realize that each may have a few policies that will actually benefit the general US population in some way -- some more than others generally speaking. I am really thinking of Kucinich here. However, in regards to the anarchist movement (or whatever term or terms we may want to use) this has little to do with anything.


If our goals are the eradication of capitalism, the elimination of the nation-state (which includes state borders), the democratization of society, gender and racial equality, and an elimination of all forms of structural violence, then supporting any candidate is just completely delusional. I believe if Kucinich did actually win the election, which is actually impossible due to corporate control and other mechanisms, then I think there would be some substantial benefit to people in the US and internationally. But that doesn't change absolutely anything. The power structures would not be eradicated just reshifted.


One more thing about Ron Paul: I don't think these "supporters" even did the simplest search of his policies. Wikipedia and his own website say enough. This man worked with Reagan... I think that should say enough. For instance, under health care on his site he has this phrase: "I have been the national leader in preserving Health Freedom." What the hell does that mean? Its a simple diversion.

But we can go further. Paul believes, "The ICC wants to try our soldiers as war criminals." How dare they?!?!?!?!!

"Physically secure our borders and coastlines." Very, very anarchist... a fine hope for all of us.

"No welfare for illegal aliens... Enforce visa rules... No amnesty..."
Oh even better; war on more brown skinned people... he gets my vote.

And the crown jewel, "The key to sound environmental policy is respect for private property rights." I don't even think I need to comment any further.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:12 PM UTC

I'm particularly impressed with how our anarchist founding fathers abolished slavery with their wonderful U.S. Constitution.

Anarchism for Ron Paul Supporters

Chuck0

Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: spina_sol on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:14 PM UTC
i think this debate is actually pretty healthy.

the old adage of left v. right doesn't work as well. the questions of the next century will increasingly revolve around one's conception of authority v. liberty, whether liberty should be consistently held to (IMO, the anarchist/anti-authoritarian anti-capitalist view), or inconsistently applied (as many libertarians do - no freedom under corporate authority, all freedom from government authority - or statist communists - no corporations, heavy-handed state), or even weirder things like people masquerading as things they definitely AIN'T, like neo-Nazis suddenly claiming to be libertarians, libertarians claiming to be anarchists, or anarchists all of a sudden howling about how we need to vote for, christ, Hillary or something as the election draws near.

Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:14 PM UTC
Nameless said:
>> Somebody stated that the constitution was designed to
>> "protect the people from the government." It was also stated
>> that "the founding fathers" had anarchist sentiments, or
>> something along those lines.

That was me.

Nameless said:
>> I'm not really sure if these comments were sarcastic or what
>> not, but I really hope so.

I wasn
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:31 PM UTC

Zeitgeist is a recent movie promoted by 9/11 conspiracy nutjobs. Infoshop News is hostile to the 9/11 conspiracy movement, so if this thread goes in that direction, we'll be deleting lots of posts in this thread.

Please read some actual books about American history. Conspiracy movies about nonsense like "controlled demolitions" are a poor source of information about American history.

Chuck

Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:51 PM UTC
Chuc0k: You are assuming things about my political beliefs again. Just because I mention Zeitgiest, doesn
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 03:01 PM UTC
OK. That's good to hear.

Chuck0
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Guy on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:46 PM UTC
Not to insult you, but that's not a very accurate or deep understanding
of American history.

Remember that the vast majority of initial pioneers in America were part
of joint-stock companies...they were out to make fortunes. As the first
families with the most access to land and wealth and the most time to
accumulate it, America was by no means a classless society by the
Revolution and the Revolutionaries were by no means a homogenous
group, and certainly not homogenously anarchistic or working class. To
the contrary, a great number of the famous ones were rich plantation
owners. Comparatively, Venezuelan and Argentine revolutions were
often indigenous/slave revolts, they were used to being under the boot
of Colonial oppression in such a way only the US's native population and
slave populations could understand, not the white, largely middle/middle-
lower class English population.

If you want a more nuanced view of American history and politics at the
Revolution, look at the differences between 1) The American Revolution
and the French Revolution, 2) The radical Declaration of
Independence/Anti-Federalist literature and the Counter-Revolution in the
1780s and 90s, manifested by the Constitution and the Federalist papers
(speaking relatively), 3) The oceans of difference in the opinions
between Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and Alexander Hamilton.

In short, the American Revolution was much more bourgeoisie than the
French Revolution and the soon to follow Irish Revolt, as well as the
Venezuelan and Argentine revolutions, which were much more bottom-
up and much more associated with the left. In addition, American
culture is most closely tied with English culture than any of those other
revolutions (you could argue either way with the Irish, but that was
coercive...). Americans unfortunately inherited many of the proto-classic
liberal ideals of England and the First Industrial Revolution, and the US's
vast (stolen) resources lent itself to this classic liberal, now libertarian
philosophy that attributes ill-fate internally rather than circumstantially.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:54 PM UTC
I will look these things up. Thanks for the pointers.

Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: nameless on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 02:57 PM UTC
Well I should start by saying I have never heard that film. So I really can't discuss anything about the film. The so-called "founding fathers," I would say, did co-opt a lot of the rebellion against the British. But the notion that, Washington, Madison, and the like wrote the constitution with the aim of "protecting" even the majority of white settlers is just not accurate. If you read the Federalist Papers you will get a clear picture. Or just read some Chomsky, that never hurts. There is really endless literature about this now. The "founding fathers" did fight the British, that is definitely true, but I would say that is where it ends.

You wrote that "a candidate who promises to liberate America from the patriot act and from Homeland Security outweighs the oppression of Immigrants at the border." That statement is loaded with assumptions. First how is a candidate from the same organization going to "liberate" society from an entity that the same organization created. Its really interesting logic. During chattel slavery in the US if the Southern Democrats, who had staunchly endorsed slavery, ran a candidate a few years down the line claiming to be opposed to it, do you think people would have been a little confused? I know it may seem like a stretch but I don't really think so. What is really interesting is that some people don't even seem to think of this. If the same group of people are consistently telling you contradicting things you would expect them to be discredited but that doesn't seem to happen often enough.

The last thing I want to question is when you say homeland security's eradication outweighs immigrant (what I think is actually indigenous) oppression. I think that depends who you ask. That statement also assumes that all of these institutions aren't linked. ICE, the FBI, Homeland Security, the White House, the CIA; they are all actually part of the same structures of power. They may do different things occasionally but the differences are rather nuanced in my opinion. I think it is really only outweighed by people who have a lot of self-interests in preserving the the status quo.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 03:03 PM UTC
I've been humbled once again. Uhm, by the way, Ron Paul promises to abolish the CIA.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: nameless on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 03:22 PM UTC
Nah you don't have to say humbled. Its all about conversation. We can all learn from each other you know. : ) I'm just happy you see how some of us view these issues. You should also know that even as anarchists we don't agree on everything either.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: A17 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 03:38 PM UTC
This is slightly off topic, but I notice that a lot of anarchists on this site seem very concerned about Federal safeguards, like minimum wage, etc. My question is this: how are we expected to rid ourselves of the government if we love the welfare state so much?

We shouldn't trust the welfare state anymore than the warfare state. We need to enact parallel structures that can take up the slack from the government, rather than promoting government theft in the form of "welfare".
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Admin on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 04:15 PM UTC
Anarchists don't "love" the welfare state. We want there to be another system, an anarchist system, but we're not going to start by pulling the shitty safety net out from under the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society.

This is where we can parse the difference between real libertarians, read anarchists, and the kind of faux American "libertarians" that constitute Ron Paul's base. Fake American "libertarians" are actually pro-capitalist, pro-wealthy people who have the mindset of America's business class. That's why we're always hearing from these so-called libertarians about the need to cut the welfare state. They aren't talking about eliminating government welfare to corporations, rather government assistance to the needy. Their priorities illustrate the true nature of their "libertarian" politics. They are libertarian about getting the government off the back of the oppressed rich.

Anarchists are not interested in keeping the welfare state around, but we aren't going to start by making things worse for the poor. It's important to defend the meager programs that exist for the poor, while being focused on the need for a radical struggle against capitalism and the state. We should oppose things like liberal poverty pimps and support alternative forms of mutual aid and solidarity. Solidarity, not charity.

Chuck0
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: A17 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 04:30 PM UTC
I see. You explained that well, thanks.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 03:44 PM UTC
Ron Paul doesn
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Atwood99 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 03:47 PM UTC
I want to see IWW membership swell to 1 million members. Don't you?
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: spina_sol on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 04:42 AM UTC
when i'm on the picket line with the iww, i don't want to get shot by blackwater mercenaries hired to break the strike.

i also don't want people to get fired, or not hired, simply because they are black, latino, homosexual, jewish, muslim, atheist, a union supporter, etc.

Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: talonx on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 01:54 AM UTC
anarcha-capitalism is generally classed with libertarianism (i.e. it has nothing to do with anarchism). many anarchist believe that the free-market creates/causes hierarchies by encouraging competition and we are against all hierarchies. Additionally, many anarchists oppose the destruction of the environment, libertarianism and anarcha-capitalism generally don't care and think that the minimization of such destruction hurts the market.

In short it would not be an anarchist utopia. It would be much worse than the governmental situation we have now. And regardless of our views on voting I think it can be said that 1 dollar one vote is a hell of a worse situation than the one we have now.

It might stimulate a blossoming of anarchism by name recognition but generally if anarcha capitalism became the status quo we would probably see them taking the name anarchism for themselves and trying to leave us all out to dry.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Makhno on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 03:47 PM UTC
"Parallel structures" means a parallel State. Dual power, "building the new world in the shell of the old", "prefigurative politics" are all code words for a new political system with new laws, new bureaucrats, new bosses, etc. What we should really be aiming for as anarchists is LESS formal structure.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: A17 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 03:57 PM UTC
The State is a vertical structure. Anarchist organization rests on horizontal organization and structure. This is a fundamental difference.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Makhno on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 04:14 PM UTC
If the "horizontal" organization is bigger than the number of people who can fit in one room, then there will be representation/delegation, which means a vertical structure. Even in the small group, unless all members show up (and actively participate) for all meetings at which decisions are made, you again have representation/vertical structure.

What happens if two "horizontal" organizations need to coordinate a decision affecting both groups? Unless all members of both groups are actively present for the decision-making, there is again representation.

For a much more thorough critique on this topic, check out Robert Graham's essay, "Reinventing Hierarchy" (available on-line).
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: A17 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 04:19 PM UTC
Whoever said that the structure every had to be bigger than a small group of people working together, as you said, the amount of people who could fit in a good sized room?

I'm an Individualist Anarchist, so I support organization on an extremely localized level.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Makhno on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 04:30 PM UTC
So, you said earlier "We need to enact parallel structures that can take up the slack from the government...". Who is this "we" that you are speaking of? One small group of individuals who can fit in one room and make all decisions face-to-face? Or do you mean many small groups coordinating their actions? If it is the latter, then you still have to answer the objections I raised in my last post.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: nameless on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 05:11 PM UTC
@ Makhno

You wrote, "'Parallel structures' means a parallel State. Dual power, 'building the new world in the shell of the old', 'prefigurative politics' are all code words for a new political system with new laws, new bureaucrats, new bosses, etc. What we should really be aiming for as anarchists is LESS formal structure."

In regards to "parallel structures" being a code word for "parallel state," I disagree. I don't think the two are synonymous. I think it is true that the two could become synonymous, but an attempt to build different structures doesn't have to be in a state structure. And what exactly is the difference between "less formal" and "parallel." I may be wrong but it seems to me that this is just a nuanced linguistic difference. But I am curious what you mean by this exactly.

One more point: I also don't think debating all this stuff will get answers either. There needs to be experimentation and a lot of hard work. It seems that a lot of parallel, horizontal organizing has been very effective with certain things. However, I don't think it has really been tried effectively (with regards to certain state functions, like mass food distribution, medical care, transportation, etc.) in the US in the last 20 or 30 years, which would be rather interesting.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Makhno on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 07:06 PM UTC
If you don't believe that debating these issues is worthwhile, then don't bother responding to this post. What I mean by parallel structures is just what A17 means by it: an institution or administrative structure that exists in parallel with one or more State structures, and provides the same goods or services, with the aim of eventually supplanting the State structures altogether. Any such parallel structure, if it is to be consistent, efficient, and reliable over a period of time, must be formally organized to some extent - especially if it is to maintain things like mass transportation and mass food distribution, as you suggested in your last comment.

Debates over the value of formal organization have been on-going in anarchist circles for some time now, and there's no need to repeat them here, but a good place to start reading about them would be the essay, Against Organizationalism.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: nameless on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 09:27 PM UTC
Well first off I didn't say its not worthwhile. I simply said I don't think we can answer them through debates. It takes practice. And I didn't see A17's comment.

Secondly I don't think that organizing these structures would have to necessarily take the same bureaucratic forms as you have implied. There may have to be some "formality," but I don't think one should assume these structures would have to be organized through a state lens.

You addressed Robert Graham's, Reinventing Hierarchy. What I think is interesting in that selection is that it doesn't really offer any suggestions (which is pretty much the point I was making). It is simply a critique of Bookchin. I think the critique is worth while, in that it addresses majoritarian democracy and essentially new state based structures. However, it doesn't give any solutions.

That is the crux of what I was getting at. It is difficult to find solutions for these problems. It takes endless practice. If we are going to get anywhere then you should also probably think about being so damn condescending.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: talonx on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 02:02 AM UTC
We should just cancel all anarchist meatups...ever wonder why masses and droves don't show up to them...part of it has to do with the fact that not every member of every collective can show up...is this representationalism?

Ever given anyone the latitude to speak for you...can't do that anymore it creates hierarchy...

Fact of the matter is m. espouses an anarchy of smallness and minimalism, that's fine, but why the fuck is he always telling those of us who don't what we can and cannot do?
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: spina_sol on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 03:27 AM UTC
as a vegan, i, for one, applaud the abolition of anarchist meatups.

*ducks*
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: talonx on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 06:16 AM UTC
har har har.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: A17 on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 04:07 PM UTC
I think that the most hilarious thing about the Paulistas is that they are trained to respond to Socialist arguments, but they totally fail when reacting to libertarian arguments.

They can give you a detailed description of how horrible welfare is straight out of Mises's handbook, but ask they why they support a lockdown of an imaginary line (a.k.a. the border), they start stuttering (assuming they are in fact libertarians, and not Nazis). It's hilarious.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: personman on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 03:33 AM UTC
They are also complete hypocrites on unionization...having trouble pinning down a good source on it though. If you notice, wikipedia's article on libertarianism states support for unions as a characteristic of left-libertarianism. The right-libertarian parts say nothing about it whatsoever...

"Libertarians" that say you must be free to sell yourself in to slavery, and free to starve, but not free to organize, have a sick and twisted conception of liberty, IMO.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: joe hill on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 10:09 PM UTC
IWW once fed me some decent mutton stew so I will explain. Dr. Ron Paul is a caring physician who has donated his time to treat people for free. Congressman Ron Paul has proposed the Senior Citizens Tax elimination Act which repeals all taxes on social security benefits, the Social Security Preservation Act to guarantee that money paid into the social security system is used only for Social Security. Congressman Ron Paul has introduced bills that would apply a $5000 tax credit per child towards spending on any type of children's education-related expenses, public, private or home-schooled, Congressman Ron Paul has introduced the Education Improvement Tax Cut Act which would allow $5000 deductions for any type of donations to scholarships or to benefit academics at any school. Congressman Ron Paul is the only Republican presidential candidate who is antiwar and pro-civil liberties. In addition he favors a sound currency, fiscal responsibility and rational monetary policy based upon classical economics in which he is well versed.

Once every thirty years or so we get a chance to put into the Oval Office a man of integrity and honesty who actually cares about the welfare of the people of this country. That time has come around again. I suggest that you and your friends support Ron Paul for president.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Cornelius on Thursday, December 13 2007 @ 10:31 PM UTC
Have you not read any thing in this article or in the subsequent comments? Please read what people have written before you comment. Or please kindly go fuck yourself...and Ron Paul too while you're at it.
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: talonx on Friday, December 14 2007 @ 02:06 AM UTC
a complete insult to all our collective intelligences
Ron Paul and the Anti-War Left
Authored by: Pomegranate on Wednesday, December 26 2007 @ 08:57 AM UTC
If you vote, or if you call yourself a capitalist, then you have nothing whatever to do with Anarchism and you are, in fact, part of the problem.


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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.