"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."

Welcome to Infoshop News
Saturday, June 15 2013 @ 04:59 PM CDT

Challenge Accepted: Post-Leftism's Rejection of the Left as a Whole

News ArchiveSubmitted by Peter Staudenmaier:

Challenge Accepted: Post-Leftism's Rejection of the Left as a Whole

Critique is a difficult thing to engage in, whether you're in the role of the critic or of the criticized. Part of the challenge involves trying to sort out which ideas are promising enough that they can be worked on and refined in a rewarding way, and then figuring out how to make these ideas more sensible and useful for our practical efforts. That sort of immanent critique is what I tried to offer with my skeptical appraisal of post-left anarchism. In my original response to Jason McQuinn's article "Post-Left Anarchy: Leaving the Left Behind," I wrote that this much-needed process of theoretical and practical refinement would be more effective if post-left adherents could bring themselves to engage with the criticisms put forward by other anarchists. McQuinn's intemperate reply indicates that these words went unheeded. Complaining that my criticisms of his argument were not the criticisms he hoped for rather misses the point.

In some respects, the ugly tone this debate always seems to take may have to do with fundamentally contrary assumptions about the function of critique itself. Much of McQuinn's indignation appears to stem from disappointment that I failed to write another essay altogether. Thus rather than responding to the criticisms I did offer, he presents a litany of themes I did not address. This strikes me as an odd way to approach the issue; the list of topics on which I have nothing to say is quite long, and it is difficult to see how such a method will clarify the core issues at stake. Perhaps it is all based on a misunderstanding: my essay was not a comprehensive review of McQuinn's various beliefs, or of the last several volumes of Anarchy Magazine; it was a direct response to McQuinn's article, particularly the parts of that article that I found unpersuasive and flawed. There is nothing evasive about this form of critique.

At times McQuinn's musings on "The Incredible Lameness of Left Anarchism" read like an supplement to my own essay. After I pointed out the chronic levels of vagueness and vituperation that so frequently afflict post-left arguments, McQuinn provides yet more vagueness and amplified vituperation. After I scolded post-leftists for pointless caricatures of the history of the left, McQuinn offers another reductionist parody of the New Left, which in his eyes apparently consisted primarily of Old Left cadre parties. Perhaps the oddest aspect of McQuinn's reply is his insistence that I neglected to provide any source for the views of other post-left enthusiasts. I did, of course, provide this source, along with a link to it, and explained this procedure clearly in my essay. The tension between these vernacular expressions of post-leftism and McQuinn's own more theoretical variety forms a major component of my analysis.

All in all, the post-left perspective seems even less cogent in the wake of McQuinn's splenetic recapitulation. Anarchists who are wondering what all the fuss is about have yet to receive clear answers, much less compelling ones. Aside from veering between casual disavowal and vehement re-affirmation of the same positions he staked out in his initial article, McQuinn still hasn't faced the basic logical conundrum at the heart of his stance: Why would the sordid record of some parts of the left require an undifferentiated rejection of the left as a whole? Answering this straightforward question would go a long way toward making our disagreements less frenzied and more relevant to anarchist practice today.
Share
  • Facebook
  • Google Bookmarks
  • Ask
  • Kirtsy
  • LinkedIn
  • Digg
  • Twitter
  • SlashDot
  • Reddit
  • MySpace
  • Fark
  • Del.icio.us
  • Blogmarks
  • Yahoo Buzz
Challenge Accepted: Post-Leftism's Rejection of the Left as a Whole | 130 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 01:38 PM CST
It looks to me like Peter Staudenmaier is trying to worm out of a debate that he initiated. Instead of rising to McQuinn\'s challenge to focus the discussion on specific point of contention, Staudenmaier responds by criticizing the style in which McQuinn addressed Staudenmaier\'s rant. Perhaps if Peter would put as much thought and time into his end of the debate, this whole thing would be more useful.

After I scolded post-leftists for pointless caricatures of the history of the left, McQuinn offers another reductionist parody of the New Left, which in his eyes apparently consisted primarily of Old Left cadre parties.

Peter could save everybody the aggravation if he would understand one simple thing: this is not about you. Post-leftism is not about identifying whole factions of anarchist thought and labeling them leftist. Nor is about identifying specific anarchists as being bad anarchists. The problem here is that some anarchists confuse the issues they have with certain anarchists associated with post-leftism and conflate them with post-leftism. Post-leftism is not about primitivism. It\'s not about egoism. It\'s not about social ecology. And it\'s not about Anarchy magazine. These anarchists will hopefully understand eventually that they should be post-leftists too, because post-leftism is an important critique which will help *all* of anarchism move forward in the 21st century.
comment by Sphinx
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 01:58 PM CST
Actually Chuck, if you check out page 5 of McQuinn\'s rejoinder to Studemaier on the IAS website, you\'ll see that McQuinn proposes:

\" A Challenge

I would like to challenge Peter (and any other co-spokespersons for left anarchism he would wish to include) to a more fruitful debate aiming to establish the most important similarities and differences between left anarchist ideas and practices and post-left ideas and practices. Taking the suggestions of the previous paragraph to heart, I would like to suggest that we negotiate a mutually agreeable format aiming for maximal communication and minimal unnecessary put-downs and distractions. My suggestion would be setting up a debate site (for example, IAS, if IAS is agreeable) with each position limited to 500 words per turn, alternating with the other position once each week for as long as each position continues to have something important to say or respond. \"

So that\'s what this is in response to.

-Sk!
comment by Brad Religion
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 02:03 PM CST
Hey, uh, Chuck, I mean, that was a wonderful response, but you didn\'t really answer Staudenmaier\'s question:

\"Why would the sordid record of some parts of the left require an undifferentiated rejection of the left as a whole?\"

It would really help clarify this debate, for me at least, if this could be answered in a clear and concise manner.

I think what\'s interesting about this question in particular in that it doesn\'t imply a rejection of post-left critique, rather, a rejection of the idea that the critiques are \"Post-left\". Still, never mind my thoughts on the topic, my one request would be that someone answer the aforementioned question. Please.
comment by boudreaux
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 02:07 PM CST
I haven\'t been paying very much attention to this post-left vs left discussion. What\'s post-leftism? In fact, under these terms, what\'s leftism? Could someone who has been participating in this provide information about the post-leftist critique of the left?
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 02:27 PM CST
Because anarchism is not leftism and because we anarchists have had a hostile relationship towards leftism for over a century. Much of this is explained in An Anarchist FAQ, which goes into a lot of detail about the history of this relationship and then goes on to explain why anarchism is different than leftism and rightism. It\'s quite easy for anarchists to reject the more egregious, sordid parts of leftism, such as Stalin and the Soviet Union. But if we are still going along with leftist activism (feeder marches to ANSWER rallies) or see anarchists arguing for voting, then we have some pretty clear reasons to use the post-leftist critique to scold those anarchists who are passing off leftist ideas as being anarchism. The fact that some leftists think that we are just social democrats in black clothing also illustrate the need for us to be more outspoken about why we are anarchists. ANd the most important idea that people should take from post-leftism is that anarchism includes soem powerful ideas that we should stick with, instead of always making compromises to feel included in some leftist campaign. This doesn\'t mean that anarchists should cease working on reforms, but that we should draw lines more quickly before the sum total of our self-activity IS reformism. Feeding people at the soup kitchen is a needed stop gap activity, but at some point we need to empower poor people to take the bread and take over the bread factory.

Hmmm, I\'m starting to sound like Emma Goldman. Wonder if I\'ll get thrown in jail for arguing actual anarchist ideas!
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 02:37 PM CST
\"intemperate...misses the point...ugly tone...litany of themes...musings...chronic levels of vagueness and vituperation...afflict post-left arguments...vagueness and amplified vituperation...pointless caricatures...reductionist parody...even less cogent...splenetic recapitulation... yet to receive clear answers...veering between casual disavowal and vehement re-affirmation\"

It doesn\'t sound like Peter is up to the challenge. A debate site would be interesting, but perhaps Peter can find somebody else to make his points without all of this hostile language.

Personally, I don\'t think that Peter\'s heart is into this, because he is just putting up a fight based on the person putting forth the argument. I\'d bet money that if all of this post-left stuff had been put out by anonymous individuals, that Peter and other roadbloacks to post-leftism would have jumped on board a long time ago. Because the opposition to post-leftism is not based on the substance of the ideas, but the personalities and associations of the people putting forth the ideas. Over on the anarchy-list right now, post-leftism is being put down because some anarchists over in the UK falsely associate it with primitivism. If you engage in knee-jerk thinking in response to primitivism and you see post-leftism as being associated with primitivism (it\'s not), then naturally you are going to knee jerk to post-leftism based on these assumptions.
comment by aragorn
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 02:46 PM CST
Critique tends to take two forms, general and specific.

General critique (at which PLA is best at) tends to follow the form X exhibits Y behavior that is problematic. General critique can be \'written off\' fairly easily as a result because either X and Y are disagreed with, the problematic is disagreed with, or \"not enough detail is given\". General critique is effective because it gives form to \"the word on the street\". It may not be right, but it resonates (like a good aphorism).

General criticism generally allows for implicated parties to decide whether or not they are being attacked instead of actually being attacking. For instance saying \"Leftists are incapable of having a sense of humor in regards to their politics\" is a general statement. If you are a leftist (or see yourself as one) you can decide whether or not this statement applies to you or whether or not you should just blow it off (because it obviously does not apply to you) even if there is an \'element\' of truth.

Specific critique (which most of the Staudenmaier/McQuinn discussion exemplifies) can follow the X exhibits Y behavior form but is usually closed with and therefore is Z (where Z is a specific attack on X). It is much more difficult to ignore specfic critique, especially if you are its target, because its form is so personal. Specific critique is also necessary as it gives both example and teeth to general critique.

Our question should be where do the useful parts lie in these discussions for us. If we are trying to articulate a politic that are not leftist it makes sense to drag a leftist into the alley every once in a while and beat them senseless. This tends to be the approach that we see a certain set of authors engaged in as their project.

There are other ways to find voice for a not leftist politic also that don\'t involve dealing with leftists. While I appreciate the time that some authors spend engaged with leftists it speaks more to their \'post-leftism\' than it does to the project of what a post left anarchy should look like.

Note my example of a general (and not specific) critique there at the end.

Cheers.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 03:23 PM CST
I posted the following comments to another thread on post-leftism and never got any response...

Only movements that stifle open discussions among the rank-and-file--such as the one run by ANSWER--are moribund dinosaurs that should be avoided.

I don\'t think anyone is arguing with you that groups like ANSWER are a bad thing Chuck, and if criticizing them is what \'post-leftism\' means to you than I think you have a much more acceptable outlook on the most of talking heads who subscribe to this label.

If it were all about criticizing ANSWER or the liberals, than I think a much less confusing label would be \"post-Stalinoid\" or \"post-liberal\". Of course, this would be silly. When have anarchists ever supported Stalinoids or liberals?

I think everyone\'s beef with many spokespeople for the \'post-left\' (yes, you have spokespeople) is that they lump in practically every organized progressive and radical political tendency that has roots tracing back to the Enlightenment period. And the parameters of what falls into this amorphous category of \'The Left\' is always changing to fit the needs of a few individuals with ideological bones to pick.

As far as I can tell \'The Left\' seems to include:

Marxists, Leninists, Maoists, Stalinists, Greens, Liberals, Trotskyists, Left-Nationalists, Social-Democrats, Social Ecologists, Anarcho-Syndicalists, Platformists, Anarcho-Communists, Trade Unionists, Community Organizers, and probably a whole lot of people I am forgetting.

I guess there are also a bunch of grey areas from the unorthodox-Marxist milieus (Situationists, Autonomists, Council Communists, Post-Modernists) that may or may not be part of the \'The Left\' too, depending on who you ask and which ideological bone they have to pick.

So, my question is, if all of these people are all somehow connected to one over-arching family that we must somehow move beyond, what exactly is left?

Doesn\'t it all seem like a useless theoretical exercise after awhile? Or else, possibly a means to repackage the egoist-individualist tendency within anarchism for a contemporary audience (personally, I think it is some of both, but that\'s just me).

=========

as far as the \"repackaging of the egoist-individualist tendency\" goes, where\'s the evidence of that MaRK? you\'re grasping at straws.

I dunno, what else is left? Primitivism? Insurrectionism? The more sensible and constructive partisans of these two tendencies seem to deviate awfully close to \"leftism\" if you ask me. That only leaves individualism, as far as I can tell. Jason McQuinn\'s past self-indentification as a \"Stinerite individualist\" (see Passionate and Damgerous: Conversations With Mid-West Anarchists) would seem to reinforce that claim.

Besides the near-universal condemnation of all progressive and radical political ideologies as being \"leftist\" there is also the second tier to \"post-leftism\" that I forgot to mention above.

This aspect of \"post-leftism\" is less concerned with ideology, and focusses more on strategies and tactics, lashing out at, to varying degrees, against:

- Federations (or in some cases any formal organization)

- Reformist, or single-issue struggles

- Anything construed as \"identity politics\"

- Unions

- Mass-Based Organizing

- Demonstrations

- Activism

- United Fronts

- Selling Newspapers

Have I missed anything?

Perhaps I am unintentionally painting a false caricature of \"post-leftism\" but honestly, this is the best grasp of \"post-leftism\" I am able to come up with based on the rants and essays to come out of this milieu. I don\'t think I am alone in interpreting \"post-leftism\" in this way, which I assume is why so many anarchists are either dismissive or outright hostile to the \"post-left\".

I dunno, maybe y\'all need some better public relations or something, or at least a more coherent outline of what you are for and what you are against.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 03:37 PM CST
I couldn\'t care less \"WHO\" the people promoting the vague mish-mash of post-leftism are. I do know alot of people, put forth alot of ideas they call part of the \"post-left\" critique, and I think alot of those ideas are wrong.

Second... I believe NEFAC is typically called \"left anarchist\" by some \"post-leftists\". I don\'t recall NEFAC calling for anarchist participation in electoral politics, we\'ve tried to chart a somewhat independent course from the rest of the anti-war movement(s)... while still doing some anti-war activity (which has meant that occassionally you could find us at an ANSWER or UFPJ initiated anti-war march, or working in coalition with liberals, leftists, pacifists, quakers, oh my! and thousands and thousands of other people who are simply AGAINST THE WAR. Sometimes, because of the weakness of the anarchist miliue it is more effective in terms of reaching people and having enough cover to act for us to be involved in demonstrations that are called by other leftists, or to participate in say a labor union that might have been founded by Trots, or whatever. You want to make it a hard and fast rule--it shouldn\'t be.) We\'ve always rejected Stalin and the U.S.S.R. We don\'t compramise on our anarchist ideas. However, generally what does get us termed \"leftist\" is that we believe in the neccessity of both informal and formal organization among a conciousously anarchist minority, as well as among broad segments of our class. We believe in winning some immediate reforms through direct action, and particularly struggle for reforms that are difficult to be recuperated back into the system... but the struggle itself helps us build the ideas and actions that will be required for social revolution. We still talk such antiquated concepts of \"class\" and such divisive concepts of identity like \"race\" and \"gender\", and how all those things might play out in say a reformist struggle in a mass organization, and what we think is a principaled (moral! and revolutionary!) role for anarchist to take in those struggles. Both when they are our own strugles, or when we are acting ing solidarity.

The Post-Leftist line that they are the true paragons of anarchist virtue is so much self-serving crap. Maybe a post-left inquisition can help purify the movement and then anarchism will be free of all those troublesome impedements of people who think we have to live in the real world where compramise is a daily aspect of our lives just to survive, where you have to work along side people who don\'t agree with you, and where we spend alot of time picking alot of fights, loosing alot of them, and every so often winning something small while we also fight on a terrain of conciousness and ideas hopeing that the next time conditions are right, people will take revolutionary actions.

If I\'m not getting the true ideas of \"post-leftism\" it\'s not for lack of trying. If folks want an argument they should get coherent... but largely I think the entire \"post-left\" discussion HAS BEEN an enormous waste of time.

\"Left\", \"Post-Left\"? Who the hell bloody cares about these stupid labels that are so broad as to actually meaningless to describing the problems we face, or solutions to correct them. Show me a struggle, let\'s talk about that, what we can learn from that, and how we move forward. This frigging false dichotomy, this crude abstraction, this relic of the fucking French Estates! Why are we use such a uslessly broad term that can mean almost anything anyone wants it to mean. We\'ve already got far more precise terms than this shit.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 03:49 PM CST
If I\'m not getting the true ideas of \"post-leftism\" it\'s not for lack of trying.

Ditto.

My above comments were not made out of sectarian spite, but genuine confusion over what the hell \"post-leftism\" embodies in terms of distinct ideas and their practical application. Or maybe I hit it dead-on? I honestly don\'t know.

I look forward to Jason McQuinn\'s definitive book on the subject. Maybe then I will have a better understanding of exactly what is, and is not, \"post-left\".
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 04:21 PM CST
I don\'t think anyone is arguing with you that groups like ANSWER are a bad thing Chuck, and if criticizing them is what \'post-leftism\' means to you than I think you have a much more acceptable outlook on the most of talking heads who subscribe to this label.

I would like to hear anarchists defend their work with ANSWER. This is where post-leftism goes from theory to practice. Why are anarchists organizing feeder marches to ANSWER events? To put it more bluntly: why are a few so-called anarchists organizing events in conjunction with Stalinists? We all know that I\'m not exaggerating here, because this newswire is filled with calls for such actions. This is what post-leftism is about. Why are anarchists still tailing around groups on the left that haven\'t just been historically hostile to us, but who have undermined groups organized by anarchists (such as the DC ACC)? If more anarchists thought more intelligently about post-leftism--instead of trying to fight it or associating it with irrelevant stuff--we might start having a more critical movement-wide discussion about what anarchists should be doing. Post-leftism would criticize those anarchists who work with ANSWER as not adhering to the cool ideas of anarchism. Why aren\'t we organizing our own stuff instead of just waiting for an ANSWER rally? It\'s like we were doing all of this cool stuff after Seattle and then the losers on the Left spoke up and we went back to our seats to have the authoritarian ideas of leftism drilled into our heads. And now we have so-called anarchists telling us to go out and vote? Can you see where I am coming from?

If it were all about criticizing ANSWER or the liberals, than I think a much less confusing label would be \"post-Stalinoid\" or \"post-liberal\". Of course, this would be silly. When have anarchists ever supported Stalinoids or liberals?

We support Stalinoids and liberals by working with them uncritically. ANSWER uses our work with them to establish their legitimacy as masters of the anti-war movement. They can dismiss critics like me by saying: \"Oh, he\'s just one anarchist. The other anarchists work with us like good comrades.\"

The best label is \"leftist.\"

I think everyone\'s beef with many spokespeople for the \'post-left\' (yes, you have spokespeople) is that they lump in practically every organized progressive and radical political tendency that has roots tracing back to the Enlightenment period.

See the forest for the trees, MaRK. You want to believe this because you want to dismiss post-leftism based on the persons involved.

And the parameters of what falls into this amorphous category of \'The Left\' is always changing to fit the needs of a few individuals with ideological bones to pick.

I\'ve seen no evidence supporting this.

As far as I can tell \'The Left\' seems to include:

Marxists, Leninists, Maoists, Stalinists, Greens, Liberals, Trotskyists, Left-Nationalists, Social-Democrats, Social Ecologists, Anarcho-Syndicalists, Platformists, Anarcho-Communists, Trade Unionists, Community Organizers, and probably a whole lot of people I am forgetting.


That\'s the strawman you are creating to dismiss post-left arguments. You and I know that anarcho-syndicalists, platformists, anarcho-communists, and some trade unionists and community organizers are NOT \"The Left.\" They believe in the basic anti-statist ideas of anarchism, as well as the ideas of cooperation, self-management, and so on.

I guess there are also a bunch of grey areas from the unorthodox-Marxist milieus (Situationists, Autonomists, Council Communists, Post-Modernists) that may or may not be part of the \'The Left\' too, depending on who you ask and which ideological bone they have to pick.

Yes, there are tendencies like these that exist in the boundary area between anarchism and leftism. You may have noticed that post-leftism has not been aimed at these tendencies. Also, post-leftists have been very friendly to these tedencies (i.e. Anarchy magazine or this website).

So, my question is, if all of these people are all somehow connected to one over-arching family that we must somehow move beyond, what exactly is left?

That has been explained in post-left essays. We\'re talking about social democrats, liberals, communists, socialists, and so on. Those people who see a role for the state in our future. In other words, people who aren\'t anarchists or libertarian leftists.

Doesn\'t it all seem like a useless theoretical exercise after awhile? Or else, possibly a means to repackage the egoist-individualist tendency within anarchism for a contemporary audience (personally, I think it is some of both, but that\'s just me).

Yes, this is one of the more infuriating things about these discussions. People like you who mess up the debate with your off kilter ideas about all of this being part of some bigger conspiracy. If this is really what you think--or suspect--why not just be up front about it so we don\'t have to waste our time debating the other stuff you throw at us. You happen to be wrong about this.

Is this a useless theoretical exercise? As long as anarchists organize ANSWER feeder marches and adovcate that people vote for a new set of rulers, this is a highly important idea.

I dunno, what else is left? Primitivism? Insurrectionism? The more sensible and constructive partisans of these two tendencies seem to deviate awfully close to \"leftism\" if you ask me.

MaRK: Do us a favor here. If you are just objecting to post-leftism because of some conspiracy theory you hold, just stay out of this debate. If you don\'t have any honest disagreements with the ideas of post-leftism, then just don\'t say anything. Unless you WANT to argue FOR working with Stalinists and Democrats, which I know that you aren\'t arguing for.

That only leaves individualism, as far as I can tell. Jason McQuinn\'s past self-indentification as a \"Stinerite individualist\" (see Passionate and Damgerous: Conversations With Mid-West Anarchists) would seem to reinforce that claim.

Which is just more nonsense, since Jason has addressed these charges in his most recent essay. Again, this is part of the \"Anarchy magazine great big conspiracy theory\" opposition to post-leftism.

Besides the near-universal condemnation of all progressive and radical political ideologies as being \"leftist\" there is also the second tier to \"post-leftism\" that I forgot to mention above.

This aspect of \"post-leftism\" is less concerned with ideology, and focusses more on strategies and tactics, lashing out at, to varying degrees, against:

- Federations (or in some cases any formal organization)

Let\'s see, Jason McQuinn and I are both post-leftists. Neither of us oppose federations. This disproves your argument on this point.

- Reformist, or single-issue struggles

No, you are confusing reformist strugles with reformism. We, as anarchists, are opposed to reformism. I\'m constantly involved with reformist and single-issue struggles, but as an ANARCHIST I don\'t argue that reformism is the solution.

- Anything construed as \"identity politics\"

You\'d have to cite some examples. A lot of leftists are opposed to identity politics these days. Being against \"identity politics\" is pretty common these days.

- Unions

Nope.

- Mass-Based Organizing

Yes and no. I\'m for organizing working people in general, but I hate the word \"mass,\" because it is a bad leftist word used to abstract working people into some common amalgam that can easily be led by the party hacks.

- Demonstrations

Nope.

- Activism

Nada.

- United Fronts

Of course! United fronts are a strategy of the authoritarian left! Anarchists work with our \"allies,\" but we don\'t organize \"united fronts.\"

- Selling Newspapers

Only if selling newspapers is your sole practical activity.

Have I missed anything?

Probably something about the conspriacy between primitivists, egoists. marijuana growers, UFOlogists, and post-leftists.

Perhaps I am unintentionally painting a false caricature of \"post-leftism\" but honestly, this is the best grasp of \"post-leftism\" I am able to come up with based on the rants and essays to come out of this milieu.

No, you are intentionally painting a false caricature and you know it. Please don\'t play to innocent with us, because it is obvious that you have read enough of the debates to be able to create a good strawman of post-leftism. Now that I\'ve finally set your strawman on fire, vould you do us a favor and stay out of this discussion?

I don\'t think I am alone in interpreting \"post-leftism\" in this way, which I assume is why so many anarchists are either dismissive or outright hostile to the \"post-left\".

No, there are a few others like you who persist in misrepresenting post-leftism, perhaps out of the deluded beleif that it is about you.

Many anarchists are hostile to post-leftism? Do you have any evidence of that?

I dunno, maybe y\'all need some better public relations or something, or at least a more coherent outline of what you are for and what you are against.

No, what we need are more anarchists who will spend the time reading our essays and thinking about them. And then we need a few anarchists who keep throwing bombs at us to exercise some responsibility before they cause more harm to the anarchist movement.
comment by ctresca
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 04:39 PM CST
I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person, and I still have no idea what Post-Leftism is trying to accomplish.

Maybe it would be better if Post-leftists stopped writing long-winded tracts and just started organizing the way that they feel is the best.

Then they could lead by example.
comment by Magic Missile
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 04:48 PM CST
I find this funny: these theories like primitivism, postleftism, etc. are put forth as nothing less than \"anarchist\" ideologies, and when they are shown to be deeply flawed, they step back and claim that the whole thing was not an ideology, simply a \"critique\".

Sorry but I don\'t need \"primitivism\" to critique the evils of technology, and I don\'t need \"post-leftism\" to critique the authoritarian left.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 04:52 PM CST
I couldn\'t care less \"WHO\" the people promoting the vague mish-mash of post-leftism are. I do know alot of people, put forth alot of ideas they call part of the \"post-left\" critique, and I think alot of those ideas are wrong.

Looks like I will have to drop my other projects and focus on post-left stuff to clear up all this confusion.

Second... I believe NEFAC is typically called \"left anarchist\" by some \"post-leftists\".

Which ones? Names? I don\'t see NEFAC as being leftist, so there. Of course, NEFAC could move towards being leftist, which may happen if MaRK doesn\'t drop his misrepresentation of post-leftism.

I don\'t recall NEFAC calling for anarchist participation in electoral politics, we\'ve tried to chart a somewhat independent course from the rest of the anti-war movement(s)... while still doing some anti-war activity (which has meant that occassionally you could find us at an ANSWER or UFPJ initiated anti-war march, or working in coalition with liberals, leftists, pacifists, quakers, oh my! and thousands and thousands of other people who are simply AGAINST THE WAR.

Why? Have you all talked about how your participation

Sometimes, because of the weakness of the anarchist miliue it is more effective in terms of reaching people and having enough cover to act for us to be involved in demonstrations that are called by other leftists, or to participate in say a labor union that might have been founded by Trots, or whatever. You want to make it a hard and fast rule--it shouldn\'t be.)

It shouldn\'t be a hard and fast rule. None of us are arguing that! But anarchists lately have shown a tendency to underestimate their own potential. In fact, this abandonment of anarchist activism has caused me much distress of late. We\'ve gone from being pro-active in the wake of Seattle to holding feeder marches for Stalinist rallies.

What changed? It has nothing to do with weakness. It has to do with the fact that many of us are sitting on our hands and then when we do a protest, we go along like we did before Seattle with the loser leftists.

We\'ve always rejected Stalin and the U.S.S.R. We don\'t compramise on our anarchist ideas. However, generally what does get us termed \"leftist\" is that we believe in the neccessity of both informal and formal organization among a conciousously anarchist minority, as well as among broad segments of our class. We believe in winning some immediate reforms through direct action, and particularly struggle for reforms that are difficult to be recuperated back into the system... but the struggle itself helps us build the ideas and actions that will be required for social revolution. We still talk such antiquated concepts of \"class\" and such divisive concepts of identity like \"race\" and \"gender\", and how all those things might play out in say a reformist struggle in a mass organization, and what we think is a principaled (moral! and revolutionary!) role for anarchist to take in those struggles. Both when they are our own strugles, or when we are acting ing solidarity.

Sounds good to me.

The Post-Leftist line that they are the true paragons of anarchist virtue is so much self-serving crap.

It would be crap if it were true, but we aren\'t holding ourselves up as paragons of anarchist virtue. If anything, we are doing the unpleasant thing of waking everybody up to some bad stuff.

Maybe a post-left inquisition can help purify the movement and then anarchism will be free of all those troublesome impedements of people who think we have to live in the real world where compramise is a daily aspect of our lives just to survive,

Please, Flint, not you too! There is no post-left inquisition and we aren\'t trying to purify the movement. If any of you respect the work I have done in almost 20 years of trying to build the anarchist movement, you should see that I find post-leftism to be important because we are slipping back into bad habits. We will become weak BECAUSE we emulate leftists and don\'t put our anarchism into practice.

where you have to work along side people who don\'t agree with you, and where we spend alot of time picking alot of fights, loosing alot of them, and every so often winning something small while we also fight on a terrain of conciousness and ideas hopeing that the next time conditions are right, people will take revolutionary actions.

Well, post-leftism is about being smart about who you work with and which fights are the imortant ones. As a post-leftist anarchist, I think that it is more important to make some compromises and work with community groups, whereas I\'d be more hostile towards working with a front group like UFPJ.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 04:53 PM CST
Then they could lead by example.

Well, what the fuck do you think I\'m doing running this website every day?
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 05:26 PM CST
I\'ve been thinking alot about the occupation and the war. My sister will soon be in Belad. My mother wants to goto one of the big anti-war demonstrations, she wants to go because she wants to know that she isn\'t as isolated in her anti-war position as she is sometime made to feel by the media. She want\'s to be empowered by the expierence, to be part of a big action (in addition to the little actions she\'s been in). And, I imagine that going to such an an event will have atleast a slight radicalizing effect on her; as it did the mother of another member of my affinity group when she went with us up to Februrary 15th (a joint UFPJ-ANSWER protest) where we all participated in illegal feeder marchs--and I got busted knocking over barricades.

Community groups have \"leftists\" (whatever that means) in them. Labor unions have leftists in them. And the largest protests the U.S. has seen in quite sometime have \"leftists\" in them. Many people just beginning to find their voice and activity often start with \"leftist\" positions, and only learn to change those positions through struggle, and perhaps with a little insight and incitement from some anarchist who are around stirring up trouble where they can see it and get involved.

Ultimately, I know that the mass demonstrations alone won\'t end the war and occupation. But they are all part of a cruel equation of number of dead U.S. troups multiplied by some fraction of U.S. public knowledge of Iraqi civilian dead and then multiplied again by the size and diversity of resistance at home and abroad by ordinary people and soliders. The large protests are an important part of that.

As to anarchist initiating their own shit. Great, many of us do. NEFAC certainly does. But just cause we strike out on our own doesn\'t many anyone else (even anarchists) decides to come along.

So, going to an anti-war demonstration (even if ANSWER initiated) certainly doesn\'t hurt the campaign of getting my sister home, preferrably not in a body bag or pine box. It can only help. That\'s the sort of immediate reform I\'m working towards... and I\'ll do and say radical things to bring it about. \"Soliders Desert!\" But I\'ll also spend the time on doing things that might help a little too... even if I have to go to a huge protest that was setup by a stalinist crew that most of the participants have no idea of the politics behind. It\'s a really good place for us to expose folks to our politics (and the politics of ANSWER).

Where the rubber meets the road, post-leftism has got nothing to offer me in terms of struggle, that anarchism doesn\'t already say more concisely.
comment by Bob Black
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 05:45 PM CST
Okay, maybe we can focus the argument at least somewhat. There is the left which (vaguely defined, if defined at all)is the historical left, the 19th century and early 20th century left, the anarchist solidarity with the left which got us betrayed in Russia and Spain. Anarchist support for the left has always gotten them betrayed, suppressed, executed. I would like PS, or anybody, to explain how the anarchist identiication with the left has ever benefited anarchists.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 06:19 PM CST
You and I know that going to ANSWER rallies accomplishes nothing. So why waste time going to ANSWER rallies? Because many anarchists don\'t trust their power and don\'t hve their heart in anarchism. We cling to leftism out of insecurity. We want to be part of something, even if it is the lamest rally that history has shown will accomplish nothing.

This is why the anarchist movement disgusts me these days. I spent many years as an isolated anarchist, working my ass off to spread anarchist ideas and build a movement. Then Seattle comes along and it seems like we anarchists are doing something. Now we\'ve reverted back to our loser ways of chasing around after leftist activism. Has anybody else noticed the drop in activism these days? Where did everybody go? If people are going to run and hide because the revolution isn\'t happening overnight, why the fuck should I continue with my anarchist activism? And why should continue when other anarchists undermine the movement with their constant bickering?

I guess it really sucks at the age of 38, after almost 20 years of activism, to discover that this was all a waste of time. Why don\'t you all go join ANSWER if that makes you feel like you are doing something!
comment by Cool
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 06:26 PM CST
I love it when people swipe lines by Noam Chomsky and try to pretend to be him, its hilarious!!!!
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:04 PM CST
I wonder how those that offer post-left critiques feel about the ultra-left. The ultra-left wasn\'t the first group of libertarians to split with the proper left (anarchists were the first...well, more like the statists and marxists of the time did because anarchists were reeming them with critiques and group takeovers. The Alliance for Social Democracy pretty much remained partisan to Bakuinin\'s ideas throughout the first international). In a way, the post-left shares many of the same criticisms of the left that the ultra-left offers, though obviously with a 21st century context.

Of those that are offering the critiques that define anarchism in general as post-left , McQuinn is the only one I know of that attempts to define a general anarchist position (not necessarily his own specific opinion) to show that anarchism isn\'t left. In \'Prologue to Post-Left Anarchy\', McQuinn offers perhaps the strongest argument for what post-left anarchism is for, instead of against. On page 3 of the article he does define what \'all\' anarchists agree to, subtracting criticisms of federations that some of the anarchists left of McQuinn have (Curious George Brigade, Fake Makhno, the Azone\'s Robert Ebright, etc.) and failing to mention an anarchist position on formal organizations (perhaps concidering this contested ground, and therefore \'all\' shouldn\'t apply here). Should the former be counted as irrelevant and the latter leftist? This he does not tackle necessarily, but other authors are more than willing to, and with McQuinn\'s silence on the issue, we are left with the opinions of Wolfi Landstreicher and other anti-organizational partisans to answer these questions.

It is taken that leftism is unethical, and critiques of organization, often put out by anarchists that have accepted the post-left position, point to formal organization, calling it leftist, therefore unethical, and therefore not anarchist (given that anarchists are not leftists). This variance between general and specific positions and critiques creates the confusion that all see from these debates, and the coherence is often lost because there is not and will not be a consensus among anarchists on what is left as long as critics of organization paint formal organizations as left. This is the connection between post-left anarchism and anti-organizational anarchism, both attack the left, but the anti-organizational position points its guns at other anarchists, while the post-left remains vague because though the authors may agree with the anti-organizational critique, they still want to present a position that all anarchists can adhere to. Perhaps this confusion is also due to the anti-ideological position, which seems to present ideology with a less coherent message, with proponents of anti-ideology failing to link their own theories together so that a consistant position can be found. I find that critiques of ideology are valuable, but its alternatives are the ideologies of the anti-ideological, a lack of coherence, and blinders to their own proposed ideologies, prefering ambigious theories to stand on their own without an ideological preference. I ran into problems with anti-ideological libertarians before, finding that they had a party line despite their position against ideology, and that is when I learned that despite a critique of ideology, anti-ideologues are as partisan as ideology proponents if not more so because many that acknowledge their ideology figure often that they may have to take a more non-partisan stance to get things done, while this argument can\'t be acknowledged by the anti-ideological because there is nothing to be partisan about except other ideologies.

I don\'t doubt after reading or discussing with Jason McQuinn, Wolfi Landstreicher, Bob Black, Lawerence Jarach, Chuck \'ChuckO\' Munson, Fake Makhno, Robert Ebright, and others that there are some major disagreements within this lump. Jarach wouldn\'t mind seeing mob rule while Ebright would rather see inclusionary mechinisms. McQuinn and Munson see value in informal organization upto the use of federations while Fake Makhno sees all political organs as disruptive to the natural anarchist tendencies within the multitude, and therefore counterrevolutionary, leaving only the affinity group as the political agitator of those in the immediate circle of the affinity group. This points out that no, there is no conspiracy. None of the above noted are primitivists, all are anti-organizational, but all also have differing conclusions on their critiques...perhaps giving reason for post-left anarchism to remain a critique...because conclusions must be drawn by individual readers from the vague implications offered by the author rather than by the author themselves, which may of divided this group of individuals I have listed otherwise. The post-left critique may remain vague for the very same reason that Marx remained vague on what he ment by \'dictatorship of the proletariat\', it is so that future generations can read their works and decide for themselves what is ment.
comment by Nicolas
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:23 PM CST
I think some of the comments here are a pretty good example of the bankrupty of the \"post-left\" school of thought when one gets through the over-intellectualizing of some pretty simple concepts. Two main things appear here.

First, are we really supposed to be understanding, that this entire \"critique\" or whatever you want to call it, boils down to not supporting Stalinoids and groups like ANSWER?
I think any anarchist with half his/her head could have told you the same without needing to re-invent the wheel in the process.
Second, and maybe this makes me a \"leftist,\" support them, no. But that they tend to bring out people which the anarchist pathetically fails to reach...absolutely. So yes, having a presence and being a dissenting voice at their events, again, absolutely.

Second, and most frustrating here, some people twisting concepts in order to construct this \"post-left\" whatever it is.

Since when (and I quote ChuckO) does this....

\"That\'s the strawman you are creating to dismiss post-left arguments. You and I know that anarcho-syndicalists, platformists, anarcho-communists, and some trade unionists and community organizers are NOT \"The Left.\" They believe in the basic anti-statist ideas of anarchism, as well as the ideas of cooperation, self-management, and so on.\"

pass for any sort of half way informed analysis or statement? Please, try to get it through your heads...The \"Left\" has always included, and will always include, both authoritarian and anti-authoritarian tendencies. Im pretty certain that I speak for all the other platformists, anarcho-communist, and such anarchists when I say that I firmly and fiercely identify with being a \"leftist\" and no matter what strange semantical somersaults you insist on making, this will always be the case. Deal with it, aside from irrelevant individualist tendencies (and Im with Mark, post-left and such, reeks of re-packaging of individualism. Its not flamebait, its my honest opinion) and new crazes (i.e primitivism) anarchism has always been, and will always be a left-wing movement.
The significant groups, who do work that matters, who are involved in social movements, and which dont exist in a ghetto or an ideological vacuum, all consider themselves to be part of the left.

Anyhow, thank god Im in Europe, and good luck to the organized ones over there (NEFAC, FRAC, FNAC, IWW, etc.).
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:31 PM CST
No, there are a few others like you who persist in misrepresenting post-leftism, perhaps out of the deluded beleif that it is about you.

Whatever Chuck, I have been reading the post-left rants for years, and I still can\'t get a handle on \"post-leftism\".

I like to think that I am bright enough person to be able get a grasp on political ideas, SO LONG AS THEY ARE COHERENTLY REPRESENTED. I would say Flint is even smarter than me, and he can\'t seem to figure out exactly what \"post-leftism\". And Peter Staudemaier is probably smarter than both of us, and, according to Jason McQuinn, he doesn\'t get it either.

Honestly, I really don\'t get it. As far as I can gather, \"post-leftism\" embodies some ideas I think are okay (er, I guess not uncritically marching behind ANSWER, and having a critique of reformism as an end in itself) and a whole lot that I think suck (attacks on social anarchists, organization, class struggle, etc.).

Since I am often personally attacked as being a \"leftist\"... the bookstore I work at gets attacked for being \"leftist\"... the political organization I am a member of gets attacked for being \"leftist\"... and much of the political activity I think is worthwhile is attacked as being \"leftist\"... well, fuck it, I guess I should embrace and defend leftism every chance I get!

comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:33 PM CST
Its not identification with the left that anarchists are arguing, at least I wouldn\'t say it is. Some see a point in street protests, and will organize with others that agree that street protests are a good help in agitation and education. This is one ground that anarchists and the left often work together on. I personally prefer to not act in this manner if anarchists can present itself as strong enough to organize its own street protests. Feeder marches are a partial victory in this respect, showing an anti-war march that anarchists are also opposed to war and are willing to be more vocal about it, and organize on their own, but at the same time, such feeder marches are supposed to take the steam from the general anti-war movement. Feeder marches aren\'t there to compromise with ANSWER, they are the answer to compromising positions, presenting an uncompromised anti-capitalist, anti-statist position where otherwise there would be none. Outside of protests, I know of little anarchist involvement with the left.
comment by Makhno
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:33 PM CST
Peter Staudenmaier made only one substantive reply to Jason McQuinn\'s critique of his essay, Anarchists In Wonderland, in this short piece, taking McQuinn to task for claiming that he (Peter) had not provided sources for the views of \"post-left enthusiasts\", when, in fact, Peter had posted a link to the long-running discussion thread, Anarchy After Leftism (which was later continued on Infoshop).

However, what McQuinn actually said in The Incredible Lameness Of Left Anarchy is the following:

To further evade a direct debate over anything at all substantive in my essay (or other essays appearing in Anarchy magazine), Staudenmaier cites a web \"debate\" on \"Anarchy after Leftism\" accessible on www.infoshop.org (more of an incoherent free-for-all in my opinion) as including, he says, \"Perhaps the most telling instances of post-left zeal.\" That sounds at least potentially correct; if you want to find some relatively incoherent, but zealous argumentation, the first place to look would be discussion sites on the internet! However, if you\'re honest about what you find you\'ll generally have to acknowledge that the incoherence and zealotry almost always go both ways. Peter claims (once again, without citing anyone so there\'s no way to prove it or disprove it without wading through dozens upon dozens of pages in an attempt to figure out what he\'s speaking about) that somewhere in this book-length free-for-all \"debate\" people sympathizing with at least some sorts of post-left anarchist critiques disagree on what is included under the concept of the left.

...The point is that if we are going to debate we need to face the strongest arguments of our opponents head-on and not run from the field of debate like Staudenmaier does looking for weak links in the realms of hearsay or internet comments from anonymous or pseudonymous posters whose identities may never be known for sure.

McQuinn\'s point was that Staudenmaier should have addressed the cogent and concise statements of post-left theory that have appeared in several essays in Anarchy magazine, authored by McQuinn, Jarach, Black and Landstreicher; this, of course, is exactly what Peter did not do, and still refuses to do. The real debate is yet to come.



comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:39 PM CST
Im pretty certain that I speak for all the other platformists, anarcho-communist, and such anarchists when I say that I firmly and fiercely identify with being a \"leftist\" and no matter what strange semantical somersaults you insist on making, this will always be the case.

If you find it more important to identify yourself with leftists and not find common cause with a comrade anarchist who is working to build anarchism as an alternative to leftism, then perhaps we have nothing in common.

Please don\'t ask me to promote any of your projects, endorse any of your protests, until you figure which side of the fence that you are on. I\'m really disappointed that people who I thought were anarchist comrades choose to attack me instead of finding some common ground to agree on. If you want to identify with the leftists, then I stand against you.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:43 PM CST
Who the fuck goes to ANSWER rallies!? I don\'t. No one I know does. I don\'t think I have ever gone to a rally they have called. Why do you keep bringing it up as some weird measuring stick of anarchist purity? Y\'know, there is a movement outside of the world Washington DC demos!

Personally, I could care less if someone goes to an ANSWER demo to oppose the war. I can certainly think of alot worse things to do. I just don\'t happen to know anyone who does. It never, ever comes up in the anarchist circles I walk in.

The only encounters I have ever had with ANSWER is when they have highjacked either ad hoc or anarchist-initiated anti-war marches with their sound system, and then a debate breaks out amongst anarchists over whether or not to destroy their sound system and beat them up and risk the negative image, or else save face and ignore them.

I never realized the threat of ANSWER was such a big problem in other parts of the country that the only way to combat it is to purify all aspects of \"leftism\" from your minds.

comment by Nicolas
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:47 PM CST
There it is then isnt it Chuck0. It is like talking to brick walls.

Im (we?) are with the evil leftists, against you, anarchist comrades. How dramatic!

On a lighter note: Mark, \"US Out of Colombia\" demo., two or three years ago. You know were guilty!
Stalinoid!
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:48 PM CST
I think I\'m going to jump on the post-left bandwagon because I agree that anarchists and other libertarians should be critical of any support they offer the left. The critique of the left is a critique of the authoritarian left, yes, but it is also a critique of both old and new left, meaning that some left positions that aren\'t necessarily statist or authoritarian are covered.

I have far stronger critiques of anarcho-syndicalism than organizational, such as presenting workplace democracy as a model of functioning anarchy, and the ideal model for achieving the dictatorship of the proletariat or immediate revolution. Also, anarcho-syndicalism often isn\'t communist, which presents possibilities of a class society reforming. Society should control its own outcome, not unions, be they industrial or trade. Workers\' Federations are simply a method of achieving revolution and they are also, not anarchy, and not a vision of what a future anarchist society will look like. I stand up for libertarian pluralism so, I think that libertarian political organs should accept that \'one big union\' is a bad idea and should no longer stand behind it. The workplace shouldn\'t dictate the outcome of the revolution, it should be the proletariat as a class, regardless of what economic organs they are a part of and what political organs (or lack of) influence them.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:57 PM CST
Because you are clearly not explaining yourself well.

I don\'t remember anarchists ever being betrayed by a broad tradtion of progressive ideas, which is what \"leftism\" means to me and a whole lot of other people. I just can\'t envision an a broad tradition of progressive ideas turning on me, and physically suppressing me or the movement I am apart of.

Of course, certain movements or groupings of people who believe in certain things that happen to fall within this broad tradition of progressive ideas may have suppressed or sold out anarchists in the past, and may well do it again in the future. But I have a hard time blaming the broad tradition of progressive ideas itself for this. I like to just come right out and blame the Marxist-Leninists or liberals or whoever, because I can put a definable face to them and it is alot less confusing.
comment by wild-fire
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 07:59 PM CST
Imagine for just a minute -

that day, that glorious day, that wonderful day when we see the end of the State and Capital and Religion. Standing amongst the ruins, surveying the remains are anarchists and Leftists (the rightists and the capitalists and the religionists and all-the-restists are surely not just kicking back, but let
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:01 PM CST
No, dumbass, I\'m not calling you a leftist. I\'m angry that supposed anarchist comrades want to identify with the loser left. The brick wall is on your side. This isn\'t about you, or MaRK, but you guys insist on turning this into one faction versus another faction. YOU JUST SEE SOMETHING COMING FROM A GROUP OF PEOPLE AND ASSUME THAT IT IS ABOUT YOU.

This is so fucked up! Next thing you know somebody will be calling me a fucking primitivist again.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:05 PM CST
You should probably define \"the fence\" a little better before you ask anyone to take sides. False dichotomies are probably the worst way to identify comrades and allies.

comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:08 PM CST
I think I\'ve finally become convinced that this mythical glorious day will not happen in my lifetime. I was always optimistic that it would happen on my watch, but given the bickering in the anarchist movement and the obstacles thrown stupidly in the way of anarchist by other anarchists, I think I\'ve finally lost my grasp on the hope that I\'d see anarchism in my lifetime. We live in such shitty times that one just loses all hope and desire to fight on when you spend more time fighting your friends for stupid reasons than you do on the stuff that will make your dreams a reality.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:09 PM CST
On a lighter note: Mark, \"US Out of Colombia\" demo., two or three years ago. You know were guilty! Stalinoid!

Yeah, but when that one guy tried to get me to hold an \'All Peoples Congress\' sign, I told him to fuck off. That counts for something, doesn\'t it?
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:10 PM CST
Ummm, I don\'t think I\'ve ever identified with the Left and I\'m fiercely anarchist communist and in FRAC (though I don\'t know where all the FRACsters stand on this). I agree with ChuckO on his point that we group with our allies, and not with the left. Our allies may be leftists that are good to work with on an individual level, but as for an overall program for change, working with them uncritically could be harmful in the long run. Not working with the left means putting libertarian projects first. It means questioning the value of our activities, should we rehash what other leftists have done, or should we avoid the entire thing. Put into practice, this lead me to disgard a previous position of mine thinking that organizing community groups or unions could be of revolutionary value, when its not. It is of value for the working, the poor and the oppressed, but it is not revolutionary. Agitation however can be, and agitating for self-organization outweighs the many problems that trying to organize specifically for community or union group can present. Let the proletariat decide for itself when it should organize a community or a union, putting efforts here could be counterproductive if it is believed that what you are organizing will bring about the revolution. You might bring about better living conditions with the groups, but agitation seeks to push people out of the comfort that these positions can create as they have in the past, and towards a revolutionary situation. A union is just a benefit group. Revolution isn\'t about securing benefits, its about overthrowing the system, and thus will not compromise to ensure benefits. Agitate unions, agitate for self-organization, agitate for revolution, agitate for anarchy. If you do organize unions, always remember that it is natural for people to be conservative and hold ground with any benefits won rather than to continue pushing. It takes more to make real change.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:14 PM CST
Ha, ha... Wait a minute, while post-leftists like Chuck0 are criticizing ANSWER from the comfort and safety of the internet, people like me are out there getting in their faces and picking fights with them on the streets!

From now on I don\'t listen to any post-leftist who hasn\'t first gotten their knuckles bloody at an ANSWER rally!

comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:18 PM CST
The only time I held something leftist at a demo was when I was avoiding the police who were trying to grab me for trying to march into lanes of traffic not sanctioned in the legal protest. I opted to jump into the middle of the march just as I was about to be grabbed and I took hold of a banner with a group of other people, which made the police back off. Leftists are good for something, I guess :P
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:24 PM CST
Who\'s turning it into a factional fight? I don\'t remember devoting an entire issue of NEA to attacking post-leftists. I don\'t remember Arsenal, Onward, Anarcho-Syndicalist Review, Black Flag, Organise!, Red & Black Revolution, or anyone else devoting an entire issue attacking post-leftists.

Yet, I distinctly remember our so-called anarchist comrades (y\'know, from \"our\" side of the fence) from Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed devoting a whole issue attacking platformists and class struggle anarchists.



comment by aragorn
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:26 PM CST
I recall a demo that I was at where upon being presented with a chant sheet I designed my own hasty protest sign.

It stated, in what I thought was simple language, \"I am very angry\" (although I can\'t quite remember what I was angry at anymore).

I was reprimanded several times that day, the most notable when a father pushing a baby carriage rolled up to me and said \"Would you please stop it. You are ruining this for everyone else.\"

?????!!!!!!
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:34 PM CST
Yet, I distinctly remember our so-called anarchist comrades (y\'know, from \"our\" side of the fence) from Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed devoting a whole issue attacking platformists and class struggle anarchists.

Once again, MaRK, say it with me: Anarchy magazine is a general interest critical magazine. They published critical articles on platformism because they publish critical articles on the anarchist movement. If this bother so much, why aren\'t you defending the primitivists? They were attacked in TWO issues of Anarchy magazine. Where is the outrage? Does this inconvenient fact cause problems for those of you who see an evil Anarchy magazine-primitivist campaign against platformism.

Get a clue. Don\'t conflate. If people are going to promote primitivism or platformism, they shouldn\'t be surprised if the movement\'s critical magazine criticizes them.
comment by Nicolas, Hopeless Sectarian
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:48 PM CST
Yeah, really! How many times have you all threatened to kill Spartacist league folks? (not that ive ever done that or anything).

How many post-leftists have mixed it up with the Socialist Party and the CGT in France?! Amateurs.

Have you had a centerfold devoted to you in Workers Vampire? (Barricada: Which Side of the Barricades are You on?)

comment by Cemendur
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 08:49 PM CST
I have this critique saved on my computer. I think I wrote all of it, but perhaps I did not. It is definitely in my tongue and expresses my views.

Left: a. The individuals and groups who advocate the adoption of sometimes extreme measures in order to achieve the equality, freedom, and well-being of the citizens of a state.

Why Anarchists should abandon Leftism.

1) Leftism exists within the greater context of UltraLeft-Left-Moderate-Right-UltraRight. It
comment by Cemendur
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 09:09 PM CST
Everyone! Take a deep breath. Satisfy a favorite vice. Go for a walk.

We are talking across each other. Then stooping to attacks, etc.

Chuck0, it is really, really easy no lose hope. It reminds me of the famous story of Mark Twain. He is attributed to having said it is easy to quit smoking, I have don\'t it a thousand times. We all lose hope. I see you going from wildly, beautifully optimistic to direly pessimistic.

Lets get some perspective here. Here\'s an unfortunately linear metaphor; In the last 10 years we have taken 2 steps forward, one step back, three steps forward, two back, five steps forward, 3 back, 10 steps forward, 8 back. . . where does that lead us? The world is become incredibly polarized. Instead of mass conformity, their is a divide.

\"Third world\" movements are practicing increasingly more anarchistic processes, critiques, theories, and practice. Sure its hard being in the belly of the beast. Americans are fucking ignorant. They are supposed to be.

Even in the united states, the corporate media is losing its foothold, P2P and independent media are increasingly becoming the favored source of media amongst a growing minority. . .

The more effective we are, the more brutal the regime, the more thick the propaganda. I have seen many moderate leftists become radicalized. Their is also a growing radicalization among moderates who, while holding onto moderate or leftist viewpoints, have awaken to understand that this system is in control by the corporations and that it can never be reformed. They are increasingly turning away from corporate media.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 09:14 PM CST
Maybe instead of rejecting post-leftism, we should just concider ourselves post-left and continue the argument from this position? It is the position that the post-left is presenting afterall. We are all post-left.

Arguments within the libertarian movements, be it about organization or about ideology are post-left.

Would a post-leftist confirm this position as true? If not true, could it be presented what would be a true argument given the context above?

comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 09:26 PM CST
Speaking just for myself as a post-leftist, I see all of anarchism as being post-leftist. This would include social ecologists, anarchist clowns, anarcho-communists, anarchists without adjectivs, disgruntled anarchist Wobs, anarcho trade unionists, social anarchists, not so social anarchists, and so on. Libertarian Marxist and socialist tendencies would be included in the post-left as well as anti-authoritarian anti-capitalists. You might argue that if we are all already post-leftist why are we having this discussion? The thing is that many anarchists still identify with the left. And it seems that too often we work with groups in the left that really aren\'t interested in reciprocating that solidarity. I see post-leftism as recognizing that there are some powerful ideas that underly our politics, which we should use to guide us in our practical work. Yes, yes, we all fight for reforms, but where do we draw the line between reforms and reformism. Or why do we opt for the easy activism of going to demos organized by authoritarian leftists when we could be organizing our own direct actions, or, organizing something with our allies in the community? And why, why, are anarchists advocating for participation in elections?
comment by Morpheus
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 09:37 PM CST
\"Post-Leftism\" is a meaningless buzz word. Everyone who calls themself a \"post-leftist\" means something different by it - the term has no real meaning. I agree with Chuck0 that we should be building an independant anarchist movement, but that\'s not what most people writing articles, books, etc. advocating post-leftism mean by the term. You would probably be more persuasive if you didn\'t use this term, because most of the people writing in favor of post-leftism have succeeded in giving the term connotations that go far beyond what you mean by it.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 09:46 PM CST
Well put. Your comments on this board are bringing back some hope to my life.

If we stick to our anarchist guns and focus on self-organization and agitational direct action, be it in the workplace or in our neighborhoods, reforms can usually be expected to follow. When we organized a direct action takeover of the school in DC, that made news and embarassed the city, which took action in the form of reforms. Reformism didn\'t open a new homeless shelter in DC, anarchists and allies using direct action opened a homeless shelter. Does the Bush regime care about ANSWER rallies? Of course not. Did they care about the F15 demos and the shut down of San Francisco? Probably. Why are there more low power radio stations on the air? Reformism? No, direct action organized mostly be anarchists.

Did the U.S. government and and City of Miami spend millions of dollars in November to police the AFL-CIO march? No, they did it becuse they fear us. Anarchists are not operating from a position of weakness. We have lots of power, mostly because our ideas are impossible to kill. So let\'s celebrate our power (ha ha) and make plans accordingly. There is no need to tag around the Left any longer.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 11:04 PM CST
I\'ve been pretty outspoken about how ANSWER, and its predecessor the IAC, were interfering with anti-globalization movement protests and taking credit for work they didn\'t do. For my efforts ANSWER responded with a smear campaign against me that would have made the FBI proud.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 10:04 PM CST
I think I\'m going to use ChuckO\'s definition, its the most practical of the definitions since the Anarchy after Leftism forum debates were hot and I just don\'t like most leftists for many reasons, but that\'s just a personal spin. I prefer working with people I agree with.
comment by Cemendur
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 10:07 PM CST
Absolutely!

Also you said, \"Or why do we opt for the easy activism of going to demos organized by authoritarian leftists when we could be organizing our own direct actions, or, organizing something with our allies in the community?\"

While we have been doing this, we should also not refrain from mentioning that many of our actions, or actions that we\'ve coincided with others with joint solidarity have been claimed by ANSWER, etc. They claim to organize the \"events\", then they claim authority at the \"events\". Denying them the claim to authority is another responsibility.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 10:07 PM CST
Once again, MaRK, say it with me: Anarchy magazine is a general interest critical magazine.

Well, I\'m an anarchist, and I can\'t remember the last time I found something interesting in it.

They published critical articles on platformism because they publish critical articles on the anarchist movement. If this bother so much, why aren\'t you defending the primitivists?

I am okay with critical. It is sectarian attacks I have issues with. I read the \"criticisms\" of primitivism in AJODA. Pretty mild stuff, with an overall respectful tone throughout. The issue on platformism was just nasty sectarian swipes.


They were attacked in TWO issues of Anarchy magazine. Where is the outrage? Does this inconvenient fact cause problems for those of you who see an evil Anarchy magazine-primitivist campaign against platformism.

Er, whatever. Funny how the \"critical\" issue on primitivism allowed for an actual primitivist (John Zerzan) to weigh in on the \"debate\". I don\'t remember any such cordial invitation being extended to a platformist, other than printing a few letters (which got immediately attacked with responses). Yeah, I guess that\'s almost the same...

Get a clue. Don\'t conflate. If people are going to promote primitivism or platformism, they shouldn\'t be surprised if the movement\'s critical magazine criticizes them.

Whatever. If post-leftists want to START sectarian squabbles they shouldn\'t whine about it when the targets of their attacks respond in kind.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 10:16 PM CST
The ironic thing about this is that I just got a hate e-mail from some right wing Cuban exiles who sent me some pictures of my left wing comrades in the library profession as wanted criminals. I may not wrangle with right wingers on the streets, but they certainly hate me and my work for other reasons. I think it\'s important to point this out, because we are all in this together, despite our heated arguments over intra-movement controversies.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 10:17 PM CST
Its also McQuinn\'s position, presented in his response to PS and discussed in \'Prologue to Post-Anarchy\'.
comment by wild-fire
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 10:35 PM CST
One of the last demos I attended the lawyer from the organizer of the event (a local \'peace\' group) designated the spot I was sitting in as the arrest zone. Why - because he was \"in charge\" and he could decide that if he wanted (one could almost see hime flapping his hands at his ears whilst sticking out his tongue).

When I denied his authority to make that decision to use me, he was backed up by the main event organizer who proceed to grab me and asked me to move (there were hundreds gathered in the street together - I was standing off, mostly alone). The Cops just stood by bored and uninterested - they had the cops on the inside (although they would not likely recognize themselves as such).

I knew then where I stood with the at least some part of the organized Lefties. My own ANSWER experiences (before I knew who they were) should have been sufficient. One more similar incident and I was done with all the Left organized demos.

Anarchists can be much more creative, of this I am sure.

-----------------------------------------
Whenever I feel hopeless I sit in the forest or by a river and watch the rest of life - the rythyms, the changes, how the smallest movement of a tiny ant can collapse a whole section of a hill.

Sometimes its enough to know that it all still flows. And as long as your heart still beats for your freedom, Rev, there is hope.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 11:10 PM CST
I\'m not askin\', I was invited, as were all libertarians according to post-left theory. I plan on addressing \'dictatorship of the proletariat\' sometime soon (couple of months) so we can find out if this actually is a semantical difference vs. immediate revolution (what Bakunin was for), or if there is something else to it, and if so, what, and if that what exists, should anarchists be for it, critical or against it. From what I\'ve read, it appears to be more of a semantical problem with anarchists and marxists using two different schools of semantics. Dictatorship of the proletariat is communist though, which may be the difference, though if it is acknowledged that all anarchists want to abolish classes, they\'d be communist too.
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 13 2004 @ 11:24 PM CST
Off topic flamebait deleted.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 01:16 AM CST
you cant use the word you are defining in your defintion. duh
comment by Cemendur
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 01:58 AM CST
I had a friend die just a few years before the WTO protests. He lived till his late 80\'s and was a lifelong Wobbly and had long given in to leftism, to reformism, I met him in the Green Party. However, he still practiced direct action, mostly of the orchestrated variety and he did support for less orchestrated protests.

My point, he died when anarchist symbols were still illegal in Washington, when anarchism was not a blip in peoples minds. . . He died before seeing the birth.

I have another elder activist friend, a long-time Surrealist (original from the NY scene), intrigued by situationist thought and gets a kick out of anarcho-punk. I saw him in Seattle. A lifelong agitator. He went on an intense heart diet \'cause he wants to live to help bring the system down. He bikes everywhere, from the southern Oregon coast to Seattle. He never saw the movement on the horizon. Never. Never expected to see the day.

On the other hand, my parent\'s neighbor fled Nazi Germany. She\'s a New Ager, in the best since of the term. She fled to Holland and years later moved to the U.S. She sees fascism happening all over again and is afraid to speak out. She prefers suddle whispers of warning in quiet hush gently in your ear. Her only hope for the future. Us.

I am not a Vanguardist, nor do I wish to be a Martyr. I am a situationist participant in this collective tale.
comment by pr
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 03:10 AM CST
\"I may not know what Leftism is - but I know it when I see it.\"

Judge Frankenfurter

I seem to remember hearing the prophets speak of a child found in the bull rushes who grew up to be a great leader and bought down commandments from the mountain top. ( Thou shalt not vote, etc.)
This leader, they would say, would be the one to lead his people out of bondage, part the red sea, and take them all to the promised land.

This leader is you Reverend. The land of milk and honey awaits for you.
comment by Magic Missile
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 05:31 AM CST
Perhaps the situation is different in the US, but as far as I\'m involved, anarchists are almost for the first time trying to stand on their own feet, however humble. We are against cooperation with \"authoritarians of the left\", I don\'t see anyone advocating voting, I don\'t even see any coalitions in local or campus level campaigns. Anarchists here (Turkey) are disgusted by the standard \"gather 15.000 leftists somewhere and shout\" \"action\". I really feel we are about to break through here.
And the folks I\'m talking about, we got an anarchist communists affinity group, some not so ideologically defined but very cool anarchists who stick together (I would call them simply \"social anarchists\") and there are individuals.
Recently we\'ve championed and brought a small postal workers strike to the attention of the youth/student movement (all the leftists got jealous, and followed suit, but the whole thing was started by this small group of anarchos, who still have the closest dialogue with the strikers) and now there is going to be an antiauthoritarian campaign against the NATO summit in June in Istanbul. (there\'s even a website in beta http://www.geocities.com/antiotoriter2004/)
I just can\'t see how post-leftism relates to all this.
comment by Brad Religion
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 07:34 AM CST
So, as far as I can tell, Post-Left Anarchism is a critique of Anarchist collaboration with authoritarian leftists, statist elements, etc. Anti-authoritarian leftist groups (Situationists for example), however, aren\'t necessarrily included in this critique. Therefore, what post-left anarchism more accurately equates to is anti-authoritarian anarchism. Of course, prefacing anarchism with \"anti-authoritarian\" is brutally unecessary. Perhaps these ideas would be more effective, if offered without the unecessary \"Post-leftist\" tacked on. I mean, really, Chuck DID sound like Emma Goldman when he was responding to my post and, honestly, I don\'t recall Emma Goldman ever bothering to call herself a \"post-leftist\". I think by avoiding a broad, divisive term, and focusing on \"Post-left\" ideas as inherently part of anarchism rather than as some radical spin-off, we\'ll get a lot more done.

. . . Hooray.
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 08:50 AM CST
H\'mm this is all just further confirmation that the label \'post-leftist\' is meaningless marketing hype. AJODA spends a whole issue attacking platformist as leftists but then Chuck0 wants to call platformists \'post-leftists\'.

In a historical sense anarchism was born out of the left and hence was \'post leftist\' from day 1. The AJODA/McQuinn/Fake Makhno line is an attempt to develop a post-anarchism that attacks many of the basics of anarchism. Chuck0 is saying something else but seems oddly attahed to a label that none of the rest of us understand. In general this means it time change the label.
comment by pr again
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 10:08 AM CST
Honrats!,honrats!, honrats!*

Here in black and white, (and available on subsbriction) is one reason we simply MUST get post left, post haste!

THE Americas\' New Left Challenges Bush
Los Angeles Times (subscription), CA
... Outside the meeting site, about 100 anti-globalization activists clashed
with riot police after hanging and igniting an effigy of Bush on a security
barrier. ...


Save time - don\'t bother calling yrself the \' new left\', just place a large \' kick me\' sign on yr butt!


I have translated the vexing term ciutadans honrats as \"honored citizens,\" although less literal renderings like \"honorable,\" \"distinguished,\" or even \"noble citizens\" convey much the same meaning.

Chapte2 2: Honored Citizens of Barcelona
... 1. Bosch, T
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 10:33 AM CST
There is no need to attach \"anti-authoritarian\" in front of the word \"anarchist.\" This would be redundant. Both you and Andrew below ask why we should talk about post-leftism if it is something that goes back to the beginnings of anarchism. In a sense, it goes back that far, but post-leftism is important now because it is about *contemporary* anarchism and our future. It\'s about anarchism re-emerging in a world where leftist ideologies have either been discredited or are on the wane.

I don\'t think that any of the post-leftists want to create an ideoogy or tendency that goes on for years. Perhaps we should look at post-leftism as a big ongoing conversation about contemporary anarchism, its relationship to the left, and our future.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 10:48 AM CST
So, as far as I can tell, Post-Left Anarchism is a critique of Anarchist collaboration with authoritarian leftists, statist elements, etc.

No offense, but do you even read post-left writings? Because I am getting the feeling that alot of people, including Chuck0, don\'t. Or else, y\'all are on the liberal wing of the post-left.

If what you say is true, than there really would not be all this commotion around the issue. But there is.

I mean, aside from the fact that your definition is completely black and white, and extremely vague (my understanding of \"collaboration\" is kind of broad, and personally, I am okay with temporary, critical alliances with authoritarian-leftists if it makes strategic sense in a given struggle), but for arguments\' sake, well sure, okay, no collaboration with authortarian leftists. I\'m with you. I also agree with Chuck0 that reformism as an end (rather than a tactical means) is a bad thing.

According to you and Chuck0, I must be a post-leftist.

And, apparently I am joined by everyone else who circles their A\'s, doesn\'t march with ANSWER, doesn\'t participate in electoral politics, and critically engages in reformist struggles. Cool. Post-leftism is like one big, happy anarchist family.

Oh wait. What about all the leading post-left theorists who maintain a far less feel-good liberalism in their political outlook? The Bob Blacks and Lawrence Jarachs and Jason McQuinns of the world. I\'m pretty sure anyone of these people would very much consider me a \"leftist\".

I may not march with ANSWER or campaign for Nader, but I do have a whole lot of other \"leftist\" aspects to my anarchism that I have seen denounced by the leading post-left pundits:

1) I believe in the importance of specific anarchist political organizations.

2) I think class struggle represents the primary contradiction within capitalism that will someday lead to revolutionary upheaval.

3) I am a platformist.

4) I am a member of a trade union.

5) I think anarchists should participate in (often reformist) mass organizations of the working class, with a primary focus on developing influence for anarchist ideas and methods of organization among the participants.

6) I\'m okay with critical, temporary alliances with authoritarian leftists (ex: chasing nazis outta town, a rent strike, shutting down a summit, etc.).

7) I think it is good for anarchists to sell literature at demos and on the street.

8) I consider my list of comrades to include: anarcho-communists, anarcho-syndicalists, social ecologists, and council communists.

9) I thought Murray Bookchin\'s Social Anarchism vs. Lifestylism: An Unbridgable Chasm was a pretty good read.

I dunno, I just assumed I was a left-anarchist, or \"leftist\" if you will. Pretty sure most of leading post-lefties would consider me a \"leftist\". But if you and Chuck0 say I\'m not, that\'s cool. Maybe I\'m not. Good thing my inclusion or exclusion from this silly club doesn\'t affect any of my anarchist activity in the least...
comment by lawrence
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 11:13 AM CST
Wombat, please tell me how it is that I favor mob rule. I don\'t remember ever saying anything about that in any of my writings. Be good enough to find some quotation(s) that led you to that conclusion. If you cannot find any evidence of my supposed support of mob rule, would you be so kind as to apologize?
comment by APerson
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 11:25 AM CST
I got more questions than answers.

Why would the sordid record of some parts of the left require an undifferentiated rejection of the left as a whole?- Peter Staudenmaier

I hear an appeal for anti-capitalists to join together here. On whose terms is the question. Is anarchism the left\'s \"little brother\" or a bona fide movement of its own?

\"I would like to challenge Peter (and any other co-spokespersons for left anarchism he would wish to include) to a more fruitful debate aiming to establish the most important similarities and differences between left anarchist ideas and practices and post-left ideas and practices.\" McQuinn Challenge

This sounds good to me.

-Define the left.
-Define Post-left. Is it anti-left?
-Can the Post-left define itself without refering to the left?

Here\'s a challenge to the post-left camp: can you define anarchism? Can it be defined?

So is the question about organization? Technology? Autonomy? Solidarity? How can people work together? How can they work on their own? What\'s work? Are anarchists socialists? Are they individualists? Can they be both?

I dislike hierarchies. I believe we can be fair and free. I believe its in MY interest for my fellow human beings to be treated fairly. I am not an altruist.

I am concerned about anarchist \"institutions\". I see institutions as rigid, inflexible, and vulnerable to being coopted by a well-intended \"vanguard\". I\'ve got faith in people (yes.. I said it.. faith), and they can organize themselves without rigid organizational ideology.

My \"authority\" is my conscience.

Post-left stuff sounds lonely. Left stuff makes me feel crowded.

Can we work on synthesis? I know I am.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 11:28 AM CST
I\'m forming a new faction, called the GNUleft. See GNU is Not Unix. So the GNUleft isn\'t not really the left. But it is GNU. The GNUleft is not the New Left. Also, like the GNU project, we sometimes appear to Copy the Left so we can operate atleast quasi legally while we find ourselves attacked by capitalism the state. That means sometimes we initiate and participate in demonstrations, mass organizations that win immediate reforms through direct action, distribute newspapers, and promote websites. The economic model of free software is a subversive meme that pushes a gift economy, chocked full of anarcho-communist goodness--it also sometimes has a chocalate coating and hopefullly a snazzy GUI. The GNUleftists will continue to uphold the subverive meme of free software that exists legally, while secretly we\'ll also be illegally engaged in the direct action of information piracy, software cracking etc. This provide us no great question of hypocrisy because our acknowledgement of legal structures of the exist only so long as it has the power to hurt us, and we violate it at the first oppurtunity that we have the strength to--for the GNUleftists in engaged in labor struggles... the same idea we apply to labor law.

The GNUleft faction/critique/ideology/program (let\'s call it a program!), is very broad and inclusive. Infact, self-identified GNUleftists have the freedom to run the GNUleft program, for any purpose, the freedom to study how the GNUleft program works, and adapt it to your needs, access to the source code and supplementary writings as a precondition for this, the freedom to redistribute copies and other GNUleft literature so you can help your neighbor or comrade, the freedom to improve the GNUleft program, and release your improvements to the public (masses/proletariat/multitude), so that the whole community(commune) benefits, and access to the source code and supplementary writings as a precondition for this.

We believe as \"Free in as in Freeedom\", which sometimes means free speech, and sometimes free beer. Both things that punks like, but that they never share with nazi boneheads.

The GNUleft is more cyberpunk that the post-left, and in terms of post-modernism... cyberpunk is da shit, since it\'s post-post-modern. That means it\'s newer than new, it\'s Gnu!
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 11:40 AM CST
I think I\'m through arguing with MaRK on this matter. He doesn\'t have anything constructive to add to this discussion and prefer to drag out sectarian flamebait, such as the comment about Bookchin\'s \"Social Anarchism verus Lifestyle Anarchism\" book (truly the worst book ever penned by Bookchin and which should be viewed as his parting Molotov cocktail to the anarchist movement which he see as not loving him enough).
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 11:53 AM CST
This is all just an attempt to create a grand synthesis between GNULeft, NEFAC, platformism, ARA, and sexy goth chicks, since Flint, as the proponent of this ideology is associated with all of these people. Given that ARA believes in confronting fascists in the streets, we can assume that GNULeft will be used against the National Alliance, based on his relationship to ARA. And we should include Northeastern Anarchist in this tendency since Black Planet Books carries this magazine and Flint has been known to frequent this place. Flint also knows Len Bracken, so that must mean that GNULeft gets its inspiration from the Situationists.

Yeah, the above stuff sounds ridiculous, but this is how some of you sound when you create strawman arguments of my views based on my association with Anarchy magazine. There is no conspiracy. Just because I\'m a post-leftist, doesn\'t mean that I agree with everything Bob Black or John Zeran writes. Just because I\'m an anarchist, doens\'t mean that I agree with everything Flint or MaRK think. Just because I\'m a practical anarchist doesn\'t mean that I agree with everything Bork thinks. This is why we should stick to discussing the arguments people make and not attack people based on their associations, real or imagined.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 12:31 PM CST
cyberpunk is da shit, since it\'s post-post-modern

I think you meant that it is post-post-modem.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 12:34 PM CST
And I think those discussions would be much more constructive if we didn\'t use such a semantically loaded and imprecise terms as \"Left\" or \"Post-Left\".

If you want to critique anarchists voting (or even worse, anarchists working in electoral campaigns!), or if you want to critique anarchist participation in coalition mass protests (whether it be UFPJ/ANSWER, or MGJ/anti-globalization, etc...) then we should criticize that based on our anarchist ideas.

Then we can have our arguments that are bit more constructive... you can argue why you would work with a group like May Day DC which was crawling with ISO types, why you defend LEFT Turn despite their geneology as a split from the ISO, why you would work with indymedia, despite the red fascists who are in it, your past membership with the IWW which refuses to call itself anarchist atleast partly so it won\'t annoy the handful of non-anarchist leftists who are even on the General Executive Board, or attend the united front Mobilization fo Global Justice meetings, or a joint -meeting with the brass from the AFL-CIO; and I can point out why I\'m willing to go with my mother to an ANSWER demonstration, march with a banner they\'d never approve of, knock down fences that they would have wished remained up, and circulate anarchist propaganda that the Workers World Party despises (which is apparently somehow as great a sin as pulling a trigger at Krondstadt). Maybe there is a big change in your ability to collaborate with \"leftists\" out there on the big prairie... but since I\'ve known you... you\'ve been pretty pragmatic about it.

See... some folks make a big a conspiracy of \"leftist anarchists\" or \"leftism\" as they do \"post-leftism\".

The label, the word, the phrase \"post-left\" is largely useless specifically because it is so broad and incoherent and that it defines itself by all the things that it\'s in opposition to. Which to some Post-Leftists is everything except an affinity group.

Anyway, you\'ve still not written anything so grandiose as published essay on \"post-leftism\"--though apparently my \"New Syndicalism\" is a post-leftist piece... I\'m not really sure how that happened and please don\'t tell NEFAC because I\'m sure they\'d expel me. :)
comment by tfs
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 12:35 PM CST
I organized an anarchist anti-war demo where I live and we had 3 dozen people marching and a ton of cops following us around. The demo was boycotted by liberals and \"leftists\" in the city.

There was a general call put out by liberal/leftist groups for a demo. 300 people showed up and we blocked an intersection for a while.

In the end, the second one was more empowering... though organizing an anarchist demo certainly made my hatred of liberals that much stronger.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 01:12 PM CST
And I think those discussions would be much more constructive if we didn\'t use such a semantically loaded and imprecise terms as \"Left\" or \"Post-Left\".

Because these are the best terms to describe what we are talking about: anarchism after leftism.

Here\'s a good quote from Jason McQuinn on why post-leftism is needed right now:

\"One of the most troubling problems of the contemporary anarchist milieu has been the frequent fixation on attempts to recreate the struggles of the past as though nothing significant has changed since 1919, 1936, or at best 1968. Partly this is a function of the long-prevalent anti-intellectualism amongst many anarchists. Partly it\'s a result of the historical eclipse of the anarchist movement following the victory of Bolshevik state communism and the (self‑) defeat of the Spanish Revolution. And partly it is because the vast majority of the most important anarchist theorists
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 01:30 PM CST
It certainly feels like I\'ve written a rambling essay scattered over a half dozen Infoshop News threads. ;-)

I tried that line MaRK, but he says I\'m still a lazy prole who doesn\'t write enough. He\'s correct.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 02:07 PM CST
MaRK, I consider you to be an *anarchist* comrade, albeit one who gets in my way far too much for the wrong reasons.

Social Anarchism versus Lifestyle Anarchism has to be the worst anarchist book written in the past 25 years. I had always respected Bookchin and have been very influenced by his writing, but this book shouldn\'t have been written. It ranks up there with some of the boneheaded things I have done as an anarchist. SALA is not about \"lifestyle anarchism,\" that description used to describe people who dress like anarchists. SALA was one long rant against all of the people who disagreed with Bookchin. He lumped together critics such as the writers for Anarchy magazine, with some of his former social ecology friends, as well as other critics. The only redeeming feature of this book is the essay on guns which is included at the end of the book.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 01:45 PM CST
So our differences in reading interests somehow discounts any opinion I might have on this subject?

Honestly, I haven\'t read that book since it first came out, but at the time I actually did think it was a breath of fresh air in contrast to the fluffy new age, middle class liberals who dominated the anarchist scene of the period. I just included it to make a point (the cataloging of certain anarchists as being \"leftist\" based on everything from methods of organizing to choices in reading), which apparently was lost on you.

Anyways Chuck0, maybe you can do me a favor before you completely write me off and let me know if indeed, based on everything you know about me, I am a \"leftist\" or not. I don\'t know that the specifics of my own politics is at all representative of many people, but it may help to clear up some general misconceptions of post-leftism.

So, again, is an anarchist who:

(1) Doesn\'t vote or participate in electoral politics.
(2) Doesn\'t attend ANSWER demos, or offer uncritical support to authoritarian socialists.
(3) Is critical of reformism as and end in itself

but yet:

(1) Believes in specific anarchist political organizations.
(2) Believes in the central importance of class struggle.
(3) Is a Platformist.
(4) Is a trade union member.
(5) Participates in mass reforist organizations.
(6) Supports selling anarchist literature at demos and on the street.
(7) Is friendly with syndiacalists, social ecologists, etc.
(8) Supports critical, temporary alliances with authoritarians in struggles where it makes strategic sense.

Okay, so after all that, am I (and people like me) a \"leftist\" or a \"post-leftist\"? After reading these comments I really don\'t know, and the post-leftists haven\'t been especially helpful in clearing this up for me.



comment by Sphinx
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 02:44 PM CST
Pull away from the political sphere for a minute. Anarchism is a method and idea that prioritizes direct action and self-organization; that sort of powerful meme can spread and become powerful. The left says, let the struggle come to us, the Anarchists say, let the struggle come. Post-leftism pulls away the shockingly empowering idea of self-organization away from the left, which would recuperate it. Secondly, it empowers individuals to interrogate the organizations they may become a part of to see what their actual aims are and what exactly they are getting from participation in the organization. Anarchism, or direct self-organization, is most appealing when it is pulled away from the well-trodden defeat arena of the miserable left and placed in the hands of individuals struggle in their own circumstances. In that sense, I will continue to relate Anarchism as an idea and not a location, infoshop, book, website etc. I will not relate it to the left because it is up to the interpreter if they will bother with the left. Post-leftism, for me, defines an initial position of approach to self-organization. If, after thinking it through, individuals see benefits in building larger organizations and otherwise, that\'s fine. But those organizations are a part of the Left, the left-wing of the state. Self-organization, Anarchist organization, exists in permanent conflict with these bureacratic leviathans.
comment by Magic Missile
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 02:48 PM CST
Chuck0, I implore you:

\"One of the most troubling problems of the contemporary anarchist milieu has been the frequent fixation on attempts to recreate the struggles of the past as though nothing significant has changed since 1919, 1936, or at best 1968\"

1919, 1936, 1968 > these are not the moments of the left we want to go to hell, these are OUR MOMENTS. The first year of the Soviets, the Spanish Revolution, The Paris Revolt, those were US.
Do we really wanna be \"post-anarchist\", as in after anarchist, as in something that comes ofter anarchism but is different? No thanks. I\'ll stick to my anarchist guns, as you put it.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 03:09 PM CST
The important part of that quote is this:

\"...as though nothing significant has changed...\"

This doesn\'t say that these aren\'t \"our moments,\" but if we choose to reify these periods and try to replicate them, then we will fail, because we aren\'t adapting our strategies and tactics to reflect current conditions. This is why there has been so much criticism of those anarchists who want to revive old ideologies like platformism, Instead of going with something contemporary that works, like decentralized networked anarchism, they want to resurrect an anarchist zombie from the distant past.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 03:13 PM CST
MaRK, I consider you to be an *anarchist* comrade, albeit one who gets in my way far too much for the wrong reasons.

Thanks Chuck0. I hope you know, despite our countless disagreements over the years, I think the same of you. The fact that it is -8 degrees with the windchill (at least in Boston), and many of us are holed up inside probably doesn\'t help the level of discourse here, but I do think there is an underlying constructive debate to be had here.

I think you said somewhere above that you consider yourself to be a practically-minded, \'anarchist without adjectives\' first and foremost. And a post-leftist second. I respect that, and consider you to be a more approachable person because of it. However, you have to acknowledge that some of the more prolific theorists from the post-left are the exact opposite. In fact, for some I don\'t think being practical is even in the equation at all. These are the people I have serious issues with.

Okay, I should be completely honest about my interest in picking fights with the post-left. Over the past few years the anarchist movement has managed to strike out and put itself on the public radar. However, let\'s be honest, alot of it was smoke and mirrors, paper tigers, whatever. Yeah, we can trash a city and make headlines around the world, but can we back up the bark with real, substanative bite? I say no, and I was a participant in many of the more celebrated of these anti-globalization protests between 1999-2001.

Anyways, after 2001, the anarchist movement in North America went on the retreat. I think this is completely natural, because, as I already said, despite showing our teeth to the world and attracting some new people to our ranks, we could not back up the posturing with real, substantive resistance. That kind of thing is important when the political climate turns reactionary, and suddenly your own the defensive with no real back-up from larger social movements.

It has often been said that the short-lived 1905 revolution in Russia was a dress rehersal for the big one in 1917. Using the same basic analogy on an obviously much smaller scale, I think the arguement can be made that the global movements that sprung up between 1999-2001 have the potential to be a dress rehersal for something much larger. There are thousands of people around the world who threw themselves into these struggles, tasted the tear gas, fought bravely in the streets and became inspired for something more. Many became anarchists.

Long story short, many people who were already convinced anarchists before this period, or else became radicalized as a direct result of these struggles, have tried our best to learn from the objective reality presented by the changing circumstances since 1999-2001. Right or wrong, there are people who have tried to draw serious conclusions so as to be in a better position for struggle in the future.

Blah, blah, blah... so where does leave the heated left vs. post-left debate? Well for me, I could care less about many aspects of what I perceive to be post-leftism. However, I do believe that some of what comes out of this genre comes into direct conflict with what I feel to be necessary steps forward for the anarchist movement. And I think if it gains wide influence, it will have a completely negative impact on anarchism in North America. In fact, I think it will set us back many years and completely void out many of the important lessons learned over the past few years.

Specifically, I think the attacks on specific anarchist political organizations, revolutionary discpline (collective responsibility, whatever) and participation in larger social movements and class struggles are all important areas of debate that I don\'t think should be conceded to the post-left.

I also think the calls for anarchists to retreat from certain struggles, campaigns and social movement and leave them entirely to authoritarian socialists and liberals is bad, just as I think the criticisms levied at anarchists who try and present ideas to larger audiences by selling literature at demos is bad.

Basically, I am firmly against the ideas embodied in post-leftism that I perceive to be in favor of anarchism remaining weak, ineffective and ghettoized. You can disagree with me over whether or not this is the real-life implication of post-leftist ideas applied to practice. But this is how I interpret them, and why I think it is necessary to actively challenge them.

I want to build a movement that is strong (which, in my mind, means disciplined, with a developed and unified praxis), involved and influential in larger social movements and class struggles, and able to develop a framework for longterm revolutionary struggle.
comment by Nine
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 03:20 PM CST
This is the whole point, you reduce the \"left\" to the authoritarian left. You are thereby not fighting the stalinoids but actually playing into their co-optation of our issues. The need for the term \"post-left\" only becomes neccessary once you\'ve let the authoritarians win the battle. I\'ll tell everyone what LEFT means once and for all. The term left means any political idea which has as its main concern:
human rights as opposed to property rights
economic equality as opposed to free competition
anti-racism as opposed to racism
gender equality as opposed to gender inequality
internationalism as opposed to nationalism.

You\'ll notice that the categories of critique are all Negative. That means that their meaning is derived from their dialectical opposition to a pre-existing set of a affairs. The term post left would only become neccessary if the negative categories of leftist critique were to become positive, or accomplished. This hasn\'t happened. Ergo we are leftist. Now anarchism has added features which distinguish us from other leftist, and to be added make us THE most unique among leftists (all anarchists are socialist but not all socialists are anarchists- haymarket martyr) But does this require a new category? Well for 200 years it hasn\'t, and given the current conditions (where authoritarian leftism has been mostly invalidated) I don\'t think one is needed. Other than adding the term \"post\" in front of a term as become a signifier for all things hip amongst our milleu\'s intellectual dilletantes.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 03:23 PM CST
This is why there has been so much criticism of those anarchists who want to revive old ideologies like platformism, Instead of going with something contemporary that works, like decentralized networked anarchism, they want to resurrect an anarchist zombie from the distant past.

I think this stems from the fact that there is a huge difference in opinion over what is implied when it is claimed something \"works\".

If you mean attract more punks, students and middle class drop-outs into the movement, than yes, these decentralized \"small-a\" networks do indeed work.

If you are talking about building a revolutionary anarchist movement that includes broad sections of society, and is influential within larger social movements and class struggles, than no, I don\'t think they work. I think we need something more. So do alot of other people. Many of them become disillusioned and leave the movement altogether. Others try and learn from history and apply what we feel to be important lessons to our current praxis.
comment by Nicolas
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 03:25 PM CST
At the risk of sounding like your personal cheerleader...beautifully put Mark. Couldnt agree more.

Its not just that I really do and always will identify with the anti-authoritarian left (i.e all forms of social anarchism), but it really is that what the post-left crowd advocates seems to me, a sure-fire recipe for ghettoization and defeat.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 03:30 PM CST
If, after thinking it through, individuals see benefits in building larger organizations and otherwise, that\'s fine. But those organizations are a part of the Left, the left-wing of the state. Self-organization, Anarchist organization, exists in permanent conflict with these bureacratic leviathans.

So, here we have a definition of \"Left\" being about \"building large organizations\", that are apparently synomnous with \"bureacratic leviathans\". And that all large organizations are also the \"Left Wing of the State\". Fascinating. So, is self-organization limited to the activity of a single individual? Is an affinity group still self-organization of the individual membes? What about a soccer team? A bargaining unit on a shop floor? A union local? It seems the distinction here is being made on the size of an organization, that is the number of people voluntarily participating in it, rather than the other qualities of that organization... like say it\'s purpose, how it makes decisions, etc...

Size doesn\'t bother me, infact I think if social revolution (much less survival in the here and now for most of us) might require some rather large organziations of people\'s activity.

I guess I\'m a leftist!
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 04:35 PM CST
It wasn\'t in any of your writings, it was in the infoshop forums, which was cleaned out, so I can\'t quote you because the thread doesn\'t exist anymore. It was in a discussion about forms of punishment, if you recall. Though I said mob rule, I ment to say lynch mob. There was an article a while back discussing retributive justice vs. rehabilitative justice that got pulled into the infoshop forums for discussion. You had a few things to say in the matter. If you disagree, say it, and I won\'t hold you to what was said in the forums (for all I know it wasn\'t really you).
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 04:48 PM CST
The ultra-left doesn\'t concider themselves left either and they came from the left. Anarchism isn\'t leftism, we\'ve split with the left for many reasons, most noted in the post-left critique. We aren\'t a faction of leftists, we are libertarians. While anarchism could be concidered left if we are comparing ourselves to reactionaries, we aren\'t a part of [b]the[/b] left, which is to the right of anarchism.
comment by nine
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 04:51 PM CST
The problem here is that you\'re decontextualizing and most importantly declassing your self. Revolutionaries do this all the time, they assume that since they\'re a revolutionary that they\'re no longer working class or an ingrained member of a community. saying that its the working class\'s decision as to when to self organize assumes that you\'re not working class. saying that its the community\'s decision when to organize assumes that you\'re not a member of the community. Now i don\'t know you\'re class situation or community situation, but i\'m assuming that you\'re wrong on both points, chances are you ARE proliterian, chances are you live a community, and if YOU feel the impetus to organize, than that is \"the proliteriat choosing the time and manner of its self organization\"
comment by ctresca
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 04:53 PM CST
What was swiped from Noam Chomsky?

And Chuck, what does running a website have to do with post-leftism? I appreciate Infoshop a whole lot, but I don\'t understand how it exemplifies post-leftist forms of anarchist organizing.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 05:00 PM CST
You are a GNU reactionary, all post-GNUleftists are anti-program. We formed after Bakunin\'s anti-politics was rejected by anarchists for being semantical nonsense, so we will create the invisible dictatorship, so you won\'t hear from us ever again. The revolution is at 5pm January 15th 2004, don\'t be late.

comment by nine
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 05:43 PM CST
I have to say Mark, the more i go on infoshop, the more I want you to write a book...
comment by mauvais pommes
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 05:04 PM CST
What about that bust of stalin nico??
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 05:08 PM CST
a good quote from Jason McQuinn on why post-leftism is needed right now (snip quote)

No it doesn\'t. It ignores anarchist theorizing from the early 20th century (well, it does get Malatesta, but misses Makhno, Voline, the Friends of Durruti, etc...) which was trying to learn from those defeats in 1936 and 1968, it\'s very anglocentric in it\'s look at theorists since the 1960s... and still disregards Murray Bookchin or any of the other sociali ecologists, Noam Chomsky, Colin Ward, Albert Meltzer, George Woodcock. Hell, apparently nobody whose been writing for AJODA had been writing anything interesting the 80s by this argument. McQuinn\'s argument is calling for more anarchist theoretical development... that is not the same thing as saying \"post-leftism\" is what we need the new anarchist theoretical and practical formulation to be. Infact, I think it is most definatley NOT the new formulation of theory and practice powerful enough to end the impasse and catch the imaginations of the majority of contemporary anarchists particularly because it is so lacking the practical power! Some of it\'s proponents reject institutions, reject direct democracy, reject organization; that almost guarantees that such ideas are doomed to irrelevancy and certainly aren\'t going to catch the imagination of the contemporary anarchists who are actually interest in effective action.

Personally, I think NEFAC has stumbled onto a correct idea (along with other folks), a solution to break the current anarchist impasse. It is in a nutshell:

We should organize around day-to-day issues that pose the question of power and offers an opportunity for radicalization. We are talking about class/community organizing based on a strategy of conflict.

We believe the only way to achieve this is a social, political and cultural revolution where the oppressed classes lead the struggle to the end, overthrow the bourgeois civilization and abolish capitalism, the state, patriarchy and racism. Such a radical perspective can only emerge, in our opinion, from social movements. That\'s why we advocate the radicalization of every struggle (from the Latin word \"radix\" which mean \"roots\" radicalizing means going the roots of problems).

Through this radicalization and our involvement as anarcho-communists in various movements of resistance, we want to aid the development of an autonomous class conscientiousness, the only safe-guard against political recuperation from all sides (including an eventual recuperation by an anarchist current). The revolution we want will not be the work of an organization, even an anarchist one, but of a large class movement by which ordinary people will directly take back full control on the totality of their life and environment.

We don\'t think a revolutionary organization is the means for organizing those struggles. We need mass based, radical, but open for all, organizations for this. However, we also need an organization where revolutionaries can share experiences and organize for the battle of ideas.

For us, the strategy for a revolutionary organization (that is, an organization of revolutionaries) is to radicalize struggles and lead the battle of ideas against authoritarian ideologies. It must be a rallying point for like-minded activists so that they don\'t have to run away from authoritarian activist trends, but can confront them head on and win the argument for the autonomy of the social movements. The purpose of a revolutionary organization is to make links between all the \"single issues\" and show what, in all the different specialized forms of revolt, can be generalized so that all the \"single issues\" federate into one big general social fight.

Any revolutionary period will be preceded by organizations capable of popularizing anarchist alternatives and anarchist methods; organizations capable of leading the battle of ideas and able to serve as a rallying point for activists. To this end, we believe that a strong, and above all, organized presense in social struggles anarchist movement is necessary. Let\'s be clear, we do not believe that an organization is a movement in itself, and we do not pretend at all to represent to whole of the anarchist movement. While we have confidence in our ideas, we do not think we possess THE truth, and it is probable that we are wrong on this or that point. That is why we advocate revolutionary pluralism.

We reject the vision of the \'political-party-guide-of-the-masses\', a vision which reduces the idea of revolution to the authoritarian seizure of power by a centralized party believing to be acting in the name of the masses. It\'s goal not being the seizure of power, the anarchist organization is neither a party, nor a self-proclaimed vanguard, but an active minority in the working class. The anarchist organization is one of the movements within the social struggle; it\'s an assembly of like-minded activists, a place of confrontation and debate, a place of synthesis of ideas, social and political experiences.


This nutshell ripped from \"The Question Of The Revolutionary Anarchist Organization: A NEFAC Position Paper\" and \"Where Do We Go Now? Towards A Fresh Revolutionary Strategy\".

So... we\'re calling for anarchist participation in social movements to aid in radicalizing and extending those struggles, and the formation of many revolutionary organizations (that is specific organization, as in specifismo) to fight the battle ideas. We advocate that those specific organizations, if they are to successfully function, need to take insight from some platformist ideas like collective responsibility, theoretical coherence, federalism and tactical unity.

This idea of both engagement with the social movements and organizations that are as rank & file members, while also participating in specific anarchist organization breaks the anarchist dilema of the \"One Big Union\"; that is where we are isolated in building anarchist-only mass organizations that never reach enough critical mass to meaningfully affect the outcome of a struggle--or dissolving our anarchist organization into reformist mass organization where we loose our revolutionary politics.

We just don\'t have a spiffy label (like \"post-leftism\") for that idea; but I think that idea is far more useful and has far more potential than the vagueness of post-leftism which says \"Well atleast we aren\'t Stalinists or Liberals!\"

Hell... I think if NEFAC called itself \"specifisto\" instead of \"platformist\" we wouldn\'t catch near the hell that we do. To me... NEFAC is evolving as one of many core nodes of a social netwar.

Generally speaking, the other modern platformist groups are also on the same program. What little experimentation our meager resources have allowed have generally show the utility of the theory for us, enough that we\'re continuing on with that practice.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 05:12 PM CST
At the risk of sounding like your personal cheerleader...beautifully put Mark.

It\'s cool. I like the European back-up. It makes my points seems all the more cultured and worldly! Ha, ha...

comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 05:19 PM CST
We will have to agree that we disagree about this. I have little interest in attarcting more punks, students, and marginals into the movement. All of my activism and strategy goes against that. My work on this website goes against that. But I still think that \"small-a\" network are the only way to really build anarchism as a popular political choice in North America. Flint will kick me for syaing this, but I think our work as small-a anarchists over the past 10 years demonstrates the efficacy of this strategy. Seattle didn\'t happen just because some anarchist organization organized it--it\'s ironic that the non-anarchist writers who\'ve written books about the anti-globalization movement understand this better than some anarchists.

Read the books and articles on Net War, or the books and articles that cover the \"small-a\" anarchist nature of the new social movements. These movements aren\'t happening because people are forming big anarchist or leftist organizations, they work because smaller groups and organizations and networks, network together.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 05:21 PM CST
Size doesn\'t bother me either, Anarchism has to handle the billions of people it will take to create the revolution, A Neighborhood Assembly in WinGate (formerly Lincoln Park West, formerly Darby Woods), one of the largest housing complexes in the midwest, would have to include 5,000 people, and that is hardly even a square mile of space covered in the city. I doubt people are proposing we break down into 3 house community action groups to maintain the size of our groups. The bottom-up will always be large because we are ultimately organizing most of the people on the planet.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 05:58 PM CST
SEATTLE, SEATTLE, SEATTLE! Will we never hear the end of it and the huge distortions that surround it. Chuck0, there were 50,000 people there--most them weren\'t anarchists (small A, big A, whatever). Most of the people there were there because of their membership in formal reformist organizations like their labor unions, or environmental groups. The ILWU shudown the ports. DAN blockaded the streets. A couple hundred black blockers went smashing, while some others squatted a building, and most of the anarchist were part of the DAN blockade or support logistics (like Indymedia). The wobblies were part of the breakaway march from the AFL-CIO march, along with longshoremen and steel workers. Many anarchists who went to Seattle got excited about it because of the I-99 (International Solidarity) meeting that summer in San Francisco hosted by the IWW and WSA-IWA where Jason Adams (whose said quite a bit about networks, anarchism and the anti-globalization movement) presented the Seattle WTO protests and at that time was pushing a campaign to call for a general strike in Seattle. If you look at the attendees list for the I99 it\'s largely the syndicalists that have gone on to form the ILS. The \"N30\" action was called for by the PGA. Let\'s see here from their English CALL-TO-ACTION:

A coalition of radical ACTIVISTS has been formed in Seattle to stage actions against the conference, and activist groups around the world are planning to converge on the city. Also, at their conferences this summer, the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW)and the international Peoples\' Global Action (PGA) network endorsed and began to plan ACTIONS AGAINST THE WTO around the world.

Many of the anarchists who have been part of these convergence style protests have later seen the need for more formal organization of anarchists than what existed. We\'re not ignorant of what happened, we just see it as insufficent.

And I\'ve read plenty of the books and articles on Net War. What you\'re leaving out is that many of these Social Netwars and Swarming is not coming from isolated individuals acting spontaneously of informal networks... but also quite formal networks among formal organizations. Some of those organizations are already big. The U.S. anarchist scene hasn\'t formed any big organization in about 80 years. Thankfully, the same can not be said for the rest of the world.

You can\'t dodge the argument simply by evoking the spirit of Seattle cause most of us have been part of that movement and we know it\'s limitations and faults. Hey, ever here of Quebec City?

How to form a one-off transitory coalition to protest a meeting setup by the international elite is not a revolutionary strategy.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 06:10 PM CST
Sorry to blab so much. It\'s cold. The cabin fever is making me shoot my mouth off...

Anyways, Chuck I don\'t think anyone would disagree with you that everything that transpired in Seattle at the hands of anarchists happened through informal networks. I was there, no argument from me.

With that said, I think Seattle represents the pinnacle of anarchists serving the interests of so-called \"leftists\" (in this particular case, NGOs).

The most organized anarchists in Seattle were those who participated in the black bloc. It is only because certain black bloc comrades had the good sense to release a statement that anything remotely resembling anarchist politics made it into the media at all (and even this message was little more than a vague condemnation of consumerism, and a defense of militant tactics).

For the most part, the underlying message from Seattle at the time was a mish-mash of people trying to save sea turtles, enact steel tariffs, end genetic engineering. The overlying alternative put forward was a vague support for the \"civil society\" politicking of various NGOs.

It wasn\'t until months later, at A16, where anarchists approached the protests against the IMF and World Bank in Washington DC in a more ORGANIZED fashion that the term \"anti-capitalism\" became commonplace, and we began to put forward a coherent, alternative, anarchist analysis and position that was distinct from the liberals and NGOs.

comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 06:24 PM CST
As for actual numbers in Seattle, I would say in total there was less than a thousand anarchists (in the vaguest sense of the word) present, and a hardcore of somewhere between 80-100 militants.

That means, at most, anarchists represented 1/50th of the overall demonstrations at any given time. In and of itself, that would not be an especially bad thing.

A unified 1/50th could certainly throw around alot of weight in the way of ideas, tactics, and overall message in a given struggle. But we are talkng about 1/50th divided into countless sub-genres, many embodying contradictory ideas around tactics and strategies, and none strong enough to put forward a coherent alternative to the dominant NGOs.

Sorry to tinker with the legend with some cold reality, but thats the way it went down...
comment by Sphinx
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 14 2004 @ 06:51 PM CST
I don\'t mean to imply that self-organization necessarily be small. However, I\'ll say that self-organization, to the extent that it does not lead to representation and specialization, implies face-to-face organization, which enhances immediacy of action and accountability of decision-making. The size of the group is up to those who choose to organize, but for me, and this is by no means the post-left line because I do not identify as an Anarchist, self-organization is organization on human terms, outside of capital. In many instances this is simply impossible. If somebody\'s real poor, with a bad job, a shitty housing situation and maybe a divorce going on, there\'s not a lot of capacity for self-organization there. Time-wise. The two issues the person contends with materially are her job and her living situation, which she can organize against. Yet I wouldn\'t call that self-organization, because she is organizing for a piece of capital\'s pie. Until capital is abolished and/or scarcity dissapears, these issues are always contended with via organization or just plain exchange of capital. That said, let me answer some of Flint\'s questions:

*So, is self-organization limited to the activity of a single individual? Is an affinity group still self-organization of the individual membes?*

Definitely self-organization, because the individuals involved are organizing around whatever they find affinity in. Usually the defeat of the capitalist class.

[What about a soccer team?]

Is it a revolutionary soccer team?

[A bargaining unit on a shop floor? A union local?]

I don\'t think so. Not that unions or bargaining units don\'t obviously enhance peoples\' lives while contending the rule of the capitalist class, but because they are organizations for the distribution of capital i.e. a smaller parcel of the state [the mediator of capitals].

Again, these organizations are useful on a class basis, but I wouldn\'t describe them as self-organization. That is because their strength resides in a collective organization which is in fact a collective assemblage of parts of capital. Workers\' strength lies in their ability to shut down a production process, speed it up, engage in sabotage etc. but that strength is tied to the production process. Therefore it is not self-organization because the rest of the production process must be organized. That means not only the workers involved in the process but also the society that utilizes the process. Right now that society is capitalism, where the relation of worker to consumer is mediated by a market. In a revolutionary society, it might be mediated by congresses of soviets, federations or what have you. In any case, these organizations are dedicated primarily to workers\' health, workers\' compensation and workers\' independence from work.
Therefore they are dedicated to the human being instead of the production process.

Self-organization, as I define it, is dedicated to enhancing qualitatively the life of the human being. Leftist organization at its best, aka the seizure of the means of production, is simultaneously a seizure of power (production processes) but also a clearing away of obstacles to human creativity and lived life (aka work, poverty, pollution, disability etc.). Self-organization is the pursuit of these aims despite existing means. It is qualitative organization, based on affinity, and towards a society based on communism.

It is impossible to ONLY self-organize because all civilized living, especially on the city, relies on some sort of mediation with capital. Membership in a housing co-op, a union, food co-ops are leftist methods of contesting the hegemony of capital even while its rule is absolute. Self-organization is decision-making made outside of these rubrics, and often in spite of them. Self-organization as I see it is communism surging forth despite the rule of capital.



It seems the distinction here is being made on the size of an organization, that is the number of people voluntarily participating in it, rather than the other qualities of that organization... like say it\'s purpose, how it makes decisions, etc...