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Saturday, June 15 2013 @ 04:59 PM CDT

The Incredible Lameness of Left-Anarchism by Jason McQuinn

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The Incredible Lameness of Left-Anarchism



by Jason McQuinn



When I was asked to contribute an updated essay on the post-left anarchist
critique to the Institute for Anarchist
Studies
monthly web column, "Theory & Politics," I gladly accepted, even
though the time I have available for writing is short these days. I accepted
because I was surprised, but pleased, to learn that the heretofore rather ideologically
narrow Institute for Anarchist Studies seemed to be opening itself up a bit
more to the broader anarchist milieu by making such an invitation. I accepted
because I have always been genuinely interested in communicating with a diverse
audience, and welcomed the opportunity to present a quick critique of left-anarchism
through the web publication of an organization which often seems to identify
quite closely with the subject of my critique. And, finally, I accepted because
I was told that immediately following my contribution Peter Staudenmaier would
be writing in response "against post-left anarchism and for an anarchism that
does not shed the left," and I have always been a partisan of intelligent, rational
debate within the anarchist milieu. Anarchists are desperately in need of such
debate-since intelligent and rational discussion has been incredibly short in
supply-and I looked forward to having some of the important points in my essay
carefully evaluated and rationally criticized.



An Evasion of Discussion



Unfortunately, the response that has appeared may be "against post-left anarchism,"
but careful evaluation and rational criticism play little part. Instead, readers
of Staudenmaier's essay, "Anarchists
in Wonderland,"
are presented with a strange combination of evasion, mystification,
insinuation and petty complaints or smears. The straightforward engagement with
my own and others' post-left arguments-the clear statement and explanation of
differences I had hoped to read-is absent. Instead, the title of my editorial
in the new Fall/Winter issue (#56) of Anarchy magazine, "The
Evasion of Discussion in the Radical Milieu,"
now seems prescient, as if
I knew beforehand the lack of response I would actually get in this particular
debate.



One might expect that Staudenmaier would critically evaluate the most important
aspects of the post-left
anarchist
critique in his essay, citing quotations from the most important
essays on the subject, questioning their arguments and counterpoising his own.
Instead he ignores most of what has been said and fails to address the most
prominent post-left anarchist writers. Instead, he makes insinuations that are
never backed up with evidence. He snipes at non-essential points as though they
had some important meaning. He deliberately mystifies what has been clearly
stated, whether through lack of ability to counter the arguments, or through
an understanding that there are no convincing ways to counter them. And nowhere
is he able to define what is positive about leftism and therefore worth preserving.



Vague Accusations with No Documentation



Staudenmaier opens his essay by calling the post-left anarchist critique "vague,"
despite the fact that several very clear statements (summarizing it from different
perspectives) have appeared in Anarchy
magazine
. These statements include Lawrence Jarach's "Don't let the Left(overs)
Ruin your Appetite," Wolfi Landstreicher's "From
Politics to Life,"
and my own "Rejecting
the Reification of Revolt."
Perhaps Staudenmaier hasn't read these essays,
though they are easy enough to find. Perhaps he's only read the updated version
of my "Rejecting the Reification of Revolt" that appeared in "Theory & Politics"
last month under the title "Leaving
the Left Behind."
To give him the benefit of any doubt here I won't mention
the arguments in other essays and I'll concentrate on his evasion of the very
clear (and non-vague) arguments made in my own essay, since he can hardly claim
to have missed it.



Staudenmaier goes on to allege that post-left anarchist critiques have "generated considerable debate among practically and theoretically engaged anarchists. In the course of these discussions, anarchists from a variety of backgrounds have posed a wide range of critical questions to the promoters of the post-left idea. Most of these questions have gone unanswered." What questions? Who didn't answer them? Why not? None of this is explained or it would become quite clear that this is just a gambit to mislead while making an unfounded accusation that most readers will never realize is absurd. Does it matter to Staudenmaier that every critical question posed to Anarchy magazine editors about post-left anarchy has been published and answered in its pages? Not at all. Aside from the few public presentations I've made about post-left anarchy in New Orleans, San Francisco and Lawrence, Kansas, the only other (semi-) public "discussions" I've come across on the subject have been on the web, where "free-for-all" would most often be a better description than "discussion." Are these what Staudenmaier is talking about? We don't know because he doesn't say. Instead he continues by alleging that "not a few (questions) have provoked a remarkable level of vituperation from those who find the new post-left label appealing." What questions? What kind of responses did they receive? Was all the vituperation from one side? Was the vituperation even from anarchists? No hints at all are given. Just another empty, unverifiable accusation. If Staudenmaier won't tell us what the questions were and who made the allegedly "vituperative" remarks we'll remain forever in the dark about whatever it is he's talking about-as he apparently wants us to. This isn't an argument; it's just an attempted petty smear and it's not the most auspicious way to begin an essay. Would it be too much for Staudenmaier to publicly address his questions to Anarchy magazine? It wouldn't be hard, and Anarchy editors would certainly answer them!



Staudenmaier next jumps to a further unexplained allegation: "when the post-leftists cannot agree among themselves on even the most basic conceptual matters, such as what they mean by 'the left,' it is difficult for the rest of us to know exactly what it is we are being asked to believe." Who doesn't agree about what? Which post-leftists don't agree? About what basic conceptual matters? The only hint we get is that Staudenmaier thinks some anarchists making a post-left critique don't agree on a definition of "the left." Is this so important? Leftists talk about the left every day; do they all agree on what it is? Of course not. Does this make them necessarily incoherent? Is Staudenmaier incoherent if other leftists don't agree with his definition of "the left"-if he has one? Is it the duty of post-leftists to provide leftists with a definition of the left? This isn't an argument; it's just another lame excuse for evading discussion, akin to authoritarians complaining that they don't need to answer anarchist criticisms because not all anarchists agree on definitions of the state and government.



Muddling the Dispute



Staudenmaier next actually does mention, in passing, some of the critiques
which I argue together constitute the core of the post-left critique. But rather
than addressing them and criticizing them, as might be expected if there was
really going to be a debate, he merely sidesteps them. Amazingly, he argues
that "What all this might have to do with rejecting 'the left'Note 1 as such,
however, remains rather obscure." To him, maybe, but I doubt to anyone else
who actually reads my essay. He goes on to argue that "many of the core ideas
of post-leftism trace their genealogy to left traditions themselves"! Duh! It's
POST-left anarchy. Would it make more sense for post-left anarchist critiques
to trace their genealogy somewhere else? Is it so strange that many critiques
of the left should originate from people who at one time identified with it?
I guess it is to Staudenmaier, since he wants to make a big deal of this. He
goes on to actually cite one specific example and a couple oblique examples.
He cites "The critique of organization" as being "deeply indebted to the work
of Jacques Camatte." Well, yes, Camatte has made some important contributions
to this critique (which began long ago amongst anarchists) and he was once a
leftist. But just as clearly his critique of leftist organizations as "gangs"
instantly made him a post-leftist in this respect. This proves nothing except
the irrelevance of this tack of Staudenmaier's attempted argument. Staudenmaier
goes on to argue that "the insistence on linking subjective psychological factors
with broader social forces"-a strangely broad statement-"is presaged in the
thinking of Cornelius Castoriadis." Maybe, but it is also presaged in the thinking
of a lot of other people, including many anarchists! No one ever claimed that
every leftist has no clue about anything! This is just another irrelevant pronouncement.
The funniest citation, however, is the final one of the paragraph, in which
Staudenmaier claims that "the whole re-orientation toward domination as our
central critical term was theorized by the Frankfurt School and by Social
Ecology
long before it gained currency in the pages of Anarchy." While the
Frankfurt School was an important influence on many Anarchy magazine contributors
and editors (and though critiques of domination have been a commonplace of anarchist
theory since Proudhon
and Bakunin),
"domination" is hardly the "central critical term" of the post-left critique,
which makes the first part of this statement curious, to say the least. The
more hilarious part is the attempt to put Bookchin's Social Ecology ideology
in the same universe, much less the same league, as the Frankfurt School in
this anyway irrelevant comment!



Next Staudenmaier says that "post-leftism adamantly rejects any accommodation with what it takes to be 'the left'." This (rejecting accommodation) could be said of any critique. What is being criticized is obviously not being "accommodated" but rejected in some important sense. Post-left anarchist critiques argue that anarchists can be most effective by standing up for ourselves as anarchists, and that it makes much more sense for anarchists to resist identification with leftism than to identify with it as a minor partner (for several crucial reasons that Staudenmaier is apparently incapable of criticizing directly). He goes on to complain that post-leftists don't speak about only one type of leftist, but all of them, including "sectarian splinter groups and authoritarian demagogues," as well as "everybody from Bukharin to Bookchin." Guilty. The left is made up of a whole range of liberals, social democrats, socialists and communists of various self-descriptions. Sometimes post-leftists (just like leftists) will speak of liberal leftists, sometimes social democratic leftists, sometimes communist leftists, and sometimes all leftists together. There's no mystery about this. Staudenmaier goes on to say that he sees "the left as an extraordinarily variegated continuum of conflicting participants and perspectives." Once again, everyone making a post-left critique of whom I'm aware would agree with this, though Staudenmaier insinuates otherwise with no evidence. He continues by saying that the left is "not a monolithic entity that can be reduced to a few neat premises," even though nobody has ever argued that the left is a monolithic entity, nor that it can be reduced to any number of premises. Post-left critiques argue that all leftists share a certain (range of) approach to theory and practice that fundamentally differs from the anarchist approach. Staudenmaier's entire essay is an attempt to continuously avoid dealing with these differences.



Instead Staudenmaier's strategy seems to be an attempt to confuse readers as much as possible about what might ever constitute post-left critiques, and substitute a stream of undocumented accusations and petty insinuations for straight-forward and rational criticism. For example, he alleges that "Many anarchists drawn to the post-left label appear to live in a world in which all leftists are Leninists, except when they're liberals, and where the left as a whole is an ominous iceberg of power-worship threatening to sink a virtually Titanic-sized anarchist movement." Who are these "anarchists drawn to the post-left label" that he's speaking of? Once again, we'll never know if they exist anywhere besides Staudenmaier's imagination because he never even gives us a hint about who they are. Of course, many leftists are liberals, and many others are Leninists, and many leftists have worshipped power (think of the mass adulation for Lenin, Stalin and Mao, for just a few instances). But I have to say that I've never heard of any anarchists, even the most deluded, speak of a "Titanic-sized anarchist movement" currently existing. Where does Staudenmaier come up with these "many" alleged nutcases when none of us have ever heard from them? It's understandable that many leftists will feel extreme discomfort when their leftism is questioned and criticized. But that doesn't relieve leftists of the responsibility to confront the actual post-left anarchist critiques that have been made, rather than attempting to dodge them by making wild, unsubstantiated accusations.



The Internet Makes People Crazy



To further evade a direct debate over anything at all substantive in my essay
(or other essays appearing in Anarchy magazine), Staudenmaier cites a
web "debate" on "Anarchy after Leftism"
accessible on www.infoshop.org (more
of an incoherent free-for-all in my opinion) as including, he says, "Perhaps
the most telling instances of post-left zeal." That sounds at least potentially
correct; if you want to find some relatively incoherent, but zealous argumentation,
the first place to look would be discussion sites on the internet! However,
if you're honest about what you find you'll generally have to acknowledge that
the incoherence and zealotry almost always go both ways. Peter claims (once
again, without citing anyone so there's no way to prove it or disprove it without
wading through dozens upon dozens of pages in an attempt to figure out what
he's speaking about) that somewhere in this book-length free-for-all "debate"
people sympathizing with at least some sorts of post-left anarchist critiques
disagree on what is included under the concept of the left.



Just checking out the first few defenders of the left in the first fifty exchanges
in this web discussion, I come across plenty of incoherent anarcho-leftism and
plenty of irrational leftist zealotry, though I'm afraid to say that I don't
find much of anything that could be called post-left anarchist incoherence or
zealotry amidst these posts. First, in a silly self-contradiction, self-proclaimed
anarchist and leftist Shawn Ewald says, "Being anarchists, we all agree that
anarchism...is superior to any other ideology or methodology.... Therefore,
to imply that anarchism is beyond or outside 'leftism' leads to a danger where
anarchists might think, by being anarchists, that they 'themselves' are not
only outside of 'leftism' but more evolved and more enlightened than the left
as a whole-a la Marxist revolutionary vanguards." Apparently, for Shawn it's
okay for anarchists to think anarchism is superior if it's conceived as a part
of the left, but it's vanguardist for anarchists to think anarchism is superior
if anarchism is conceived as being outside the left! Go figure. Score one for
anarcho-leftist incoherence. But that's not all. Unfortunately, his posts are
full of this kind of bizarre stuff. He next argues with regard to post-left
anarchist criticism of the left
(specifically from my editorial on the subject in Anarchy magazine) that "These
are very classic leftist arguments, it should be pointed out. Many a newly formed
Trot splinter group have made similar justifications for their actions. The
implications are not pleasant to think about." Of course, he doesn't give a
single example of any Trotskyist
splinter group
ever in history that has actually made the same (or even
roughly similar) arguments because none ever have! Anyone ever hear of post-left
Trotskyism? Of course not. It doesn't exist. Score another point for left-anarchist
irrationalism. It would be easy to continue in this vein, but I for one would
rather not. What would it prove? The main point is not that there is a vast
supply of incoherent arguments made by left-anarchists. The point is that if
we are going to debate we need to face the strongest arguments of our opponents
head-on and not run from the field of debate like Staudenmaier does looking
for weak links in the realms of hearsay or internet comments from anonymous
or pseudonymous posters whose identities may never be known for sure. Peter
Staudenmaier, if there are coherent arguments for post-left critiques and you're
afraid to face these arguments and offer arguments for alternative positions.
Guess what? You've already lost the debate, because you've fled the field. If
you want to win arguments, you need to quit running.



Nebulous Leftism



Staudenmaier complains again about post-leftist characterizations of leftists. As per his by now standard operating procedure, he makes numerous little allegations while never citing any particular sources. All we have is his not very convincing word that despite the supposedly "nebulous notion of 'the left' that animates the post-left critique," there are some very particular "extravagant denunciations" made by some unnamed people that annoy him very much. Looking at these claims we find that Staudenmaier alleges that some post-left anarchist somewhere in the world has argued that leftists "are all simultaneously totalitarian and reformists"! Not that there is anything unusual about totalitarian leftists reforming capitalism in various anti-revolutionary ways. (Just think about the Stalinists, Maoists and all the followers of the petty Communist Party dictators of the last half century or so.) But who in the world would say that all leftists are totalitarian reformists? Nobody I know. Probably nobody you know. Possibly nobody anyone knows, since Staudenmaier never deigns to enlighten us about who this person might be.



Next he complains that some post-leftist somewhere has argued that leftist "movements are disintegrating, trapped in inevitable decline." Does any anarchist besides Staudenmaier think differently since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the collapse of the Maoist ideological facade in China, the capitulation of social democratic regimes in the face of neo-liberal imperatives, etc.? I'd be surprised to hear it! Staudenmaier further complains that another-or possibly the same-hapless post-left anarchist (whose name he won't reveal) has said that leftists' "mere presence threatens to overwhelm those anarchists foolish enough to ignore the urgent danger." This certainly sounds a bit exaggerated, though whether it is the allegedly post-left anarchist or Staudenmaier himself doing the exaggerating is impossible to tell given Staudenmaier's continuing refusal to document his sources. Be that as it may, the tens of thousands of anarchists imprisoned or murdered by leftists over the last ninety years might have nonetheless appreciated such an exaggerated warning if they had received one in time.



Finally, Staudenmaier actually addresses something I've said in my latest essay on the post-left anarchist critique. Well, sort of. He actually complains that I use the words "'all' and 'every,' 'always' and 'everywhere,'" not to mention "the vast majority," and that using these words indicates a "lack of nuance"! Pardon me, but it only indicates a lack of nuance if the words in context exaggerate. Each of these words can also indicate the precisely correct nuance of argument as well. It depends upon the entire statements of which the words are merely parts, and it depends upon the contexts in which these entire statements appear. I've rarely seen a more bizarre argument than this one. Ignore the actual statements you want to criticize and instead attack the use of particular isolated words used in the statements! This is a brilliant innovation in evasion! Bravo! It's meaningless, but certainly it will be effective in distracting at least some readers' attentions from its absolute logical poverty.



Oops! Staudenmaier actually does follow this meaningless exercise in diversion
with a quotation of an entire sentence from my essay addressing the difference
between the strictly anarchist emphasis on self-organization and the leftist
emphasis on integrating radicals into leftist political organizations: "For
leftists, the emphasis is always on recruiting to their organizations, so that
you can adopt the role of a cadreNote
2
serving their goals." But then he for some reason neglects to mention
any of the many, many exceptions to this statement that he surely thinks must
exist. Let's see, surely we can come up with one or two? Of course, we'll have
to eliminate all of the leftist political parties whose goals are precisely
to convert independent radical activists into party cadre. Then we'll have to
eliminate all of the leftist pre-party organizations, whose goals are really
the same, though they don't have full-fledged party organizations yet. And then
there are the leftist front groups, the party youth groups, the single-issue
campaign groups and even the small splinter groups. Well, maybe it isn't so
easy to come up with an example of leftists whose emphasis is at least sometimes
on encouraging genuine self-organization they have no intention of managing
or dominating. I really can't think of any. Can you? But what about anarcho-leftists?
Maybe we can come up with some anarcho-leftists who sometimes encourage self-organization?
But then is the encouragement of self-organization the result of the anarcho-
or the leftist influence? I think we can all guess the real answer to that question.
So maybe the reason that Staudenmaier doesn't provide us with a counterexample
to disprove the statement of mine he quotes is that there really aren't any.
Let's give him another chance, though. Peter Staudenmaier, please give us all
an example of a self-defined leftist group that consistently emphasizes genuine
self-organization with no attempts at manipulation, no attempts to infiltrate
or control, no hidden leaderships, no ideological agendas, etc. If you can come
up with even one, I promise to amend my statement above to read: "For leftists,
the emphasis is almost always on recruiting to their organizations, so that
you can adopt the role of a cadre serving their goals."



Staudenmaier's Leftist Fantasies



Staudenmaier claims that "the post-left image of the left....is frequently wrong on particulars," citing as an example my mention that "'the critique of everyday life' is 'largely incompatible' with 'most of the New Left of the 60s and 70s." Amazingly enough, Staudenmaier rousingly claims that "In Germany, France, and North America, at the very least, large segments of the New Left enthusiastically embraced the critique of everyday life...." Of course, he once again gives zero examples. Do I detect a pattern developing? Who were these "large segments of the New Left"? I sure don't recall any New Left socialist or communist groups, Trotskyist splinter groups, or Maoist groupuscles that "enthusiastically embraced the critique of everyday life." The Situationist International, of course, encouraged this critique, but its members were contemptuous of the left, so it can't count here. In the U.S. the SDS, the Progressive Labor Party, the Weatherman organization, the Socialist Workers Party, the Black Panther Party, the Young Lords and other major New Left groups would have rejected the critique of everyday life, if they had ever heard of it. Sure, there were amorphous anti-authoritarian currents throughout the New Left, including a few which heeded the S.I.'s call for a critique of everyday life. But the vast majority of the New Left groups had no use for this essentially anarchistic turn of critique away from the exploitation of labor. (Or, for the more liberal and pacifist New Leftists, away from the confrontation of moral conscience with the establishment; and for the feminists, civil rights groups and black nationalists, away from the reifications of identity politics.)



Staudenmaier clarifies his claim by adding that: "the profoundly anti-authoritarian upsurge of that era...owed much of its vigor and inclusiveness to this re-orientation toward everyday relationships." However, while it may be true that there was a sort of generalized New Left "re-orientation towards everyday relationships," this hardly constituted any sort of genuine critique of everyday life. Most of the "re-orientation towards everyday relationships" during the time was fraught with ideological baggage that precisely prevented the development of such a critique. There were all kinds of incoherent amalgamations floating around, including aspects of drug culture, feminism, Maoism, anarchism, sexual liberation, drop-out culture, etc. But they were just that-incoherent amalgamations-and not coherent critiques of everyday life in any way comparable to that of Raoul Vaneigem's critique in his Revolution of Everyday Life. This type of coherent critique would have immediately called into question the rampant incoherence involved in the reformism, moralism, identity politics, workerism and authoritarianism of New Left organizations at the time. As for Henri LeFebvre's Critique of Everyday Life series, it was almost unknown and simply irrelevant in North America at the time (where it was yet to be translated, anyway), while Richard Gombin's otherwise interesting book remains most remarkable for its highly idiosyncratic and bizarre definition of leftism, under which the Situationist International was categorized as leftist despite its public disdain for the left in its own terms (for just one example, speaking of "the hierarchical ideology of leftism" in "Theses on the Situationist International and its Time" by Guy Debord & Gianfranco Sanguinetti).Note 3



Staudenmaier goes on to argue that: "the concrete practice of countless New Leftists was explicitly predicated on a forceful rejection of precisely those values which McQuinn takes to be constitutive of the left as such." As usual he provides no examples. Funny, I never noticed these "countless" post-left anarchists at the time. Where were these "countless" people? Why don't they appear in any history of the New Left, except, possibly, in cases of a few tiny groups like the Diggers or the Motherfuckers? The New Left I lived through was thoroughly leftist. The anarchists were almost completely invisible. Almost nobody at the time ever talked about the critique of organizational fetishism, the critique of everyday life, the critique of the state, the critique of ideology (except in the least perceptive Marxist senses), the critique of technological fetishism (beyond superficial environmentalist concerns), or the critique of civilization. Even the few anarchists were oblivious to most of this. If Staudenmaier can provide any evidence I'd be happy to concede that the times were far more radical than I realized. But in the complete absence of any evidence for his amazing fantasies, I'll have to stick with the 60s and 70s I saw with my own eyes.



Staudenmaier further claims that: "The actual history of the left includes numerous instances when such innovative critical approaches emerged to contest the conformism and repressiveness of the cadre model." I bet you can guess by now that he doesn't give even one example of what he's talking about. What "numerous...innovative and critical approaches" advanced the model of anti-authoritarian, anti-statist self-organization outside of the anarchist milieu? Looking at the historical record there's not much evidence for any. Of course, if Staudenmaier actually means that there were really a few timid criticisms made of the excesses of leftist organizational fetishism (let's not be quite so rigid, let's allow the common people to contribute ideas once in awhile, let's vote on our party policies) this isn't the same thing at all as what post-left anarchists argue, and it would be absurd to think it was.



Staudenmaier does make one good, though entirely irrelevant, point in all this. He argues: "some leftists have been thoughtful and resolute allies of anarchism at crucial junctures in our history." But nobody has claimed otherwise. A few exceptional leftists-like George Orwell-had some anarchist sympathies, despite their abhorrence for anarchist indiscipline, subversion and bad manners. Daniel Guerin is another example. Nobody has claimed that all leftists are incapable of working with anarchists, just that non-anarchist leftists have a significantly different theory and practice than anarchists that is basically incompatible with anarchy. This should really be no surprise. They're just not anarchists.



Individualist Delusions and Myopic Autonomy



We get to the heart of one of the biggest differences between anarchism and leftism when we assess the place of individuals in communities and in social change. Anarchists (at least, those anarchists whose anarchism is stronger than their leftism) generally argue that free individuals and free communities cannot be coerced into existence. Leftists argue otherwise. Anarchists contend that individuals and communities should be autonomous (self-governing, self-directing) rather than dependent upon government and the forced imposition of heteronomous decisions. Leftists, for the most part, can hardly conceive that people free to make their own decisions might ever be socially-conscious, much less able to carry out a social revolution in the right situation. (This attitude is exemplified by the infamous Leninist insistence that workers are only capable of "trade-union consciousness," and the corresponding delusion that only the Leninist party can be consistently revolutionary.) In fact, for most socialist and communist leftists (and, unfortunately, also for many left-anarchists) individualism seems to be nothing but a dirty word.



The difference between anarchism and leftism here is the difference between a specific meaning of the word "individualism"Note 4 and a specific meaning of the word "collectivism."Note 5 Anarchists are all individualists in the narrow and specific sense of "...favoring freedom of action for individuals over collective or state control." (New Oxford American Dictionary) Leftists are collectivists in the specific and narrow sense of favoring "...social organization in which the individual is seen as being subordinate to a social collectivity such as a state, a nation, a race, or a social class." (Encyclopedia Britannica) Left anarchists of various types make a range of uneasy compromises between these two positions-some closer to anarchism, some closer to leftism.Note 6 This particular difference between anarchism and leftism has nothing to do with the various ideologies of individualism or of individualist anarchism, none of which have a significant presence within the contemporary anarchist milieu, anyway. Yet Staudenmaier objects to my claim that "The anarchist idea has an indelibly individualist foundation," by bringing up the largely irrelevant history of individualist anarchists despite the fact that in "Leaving the Left Behind" I nowhere refer to this history and nowhere defend any ideological individualism in any form.Note 7 This is another diversionary tactic. Specifically, it is a straightforward use of the straw-man fallacy, in which Staudenmaier argues with a position he's constructed out of thin air, rather than arguing with the position that's actually been put forth. To be overly fair, this is a fairly common tactic used by all sorts of unscrupulous leftists to attack anyone interested in individual freedom, which is seen by most leftists as at best only a bourgeois conceit. This is why almost all leftists with any remaining semblance of opposition to capitalism repeatedly denounce anarchism as merely a form of "bourgeois individualism" or "petty-bourgeois individualism" or "lumpen individualism." But no matter how common it is the construction of straw-man arguments serves primarily to reveal the extreme weakness of the positions of those making them. Straw men are attacked precisely because leftists are unable to counter the actual arguments.



At this point Staudenmaier explains to dubious readers that the "insistence on individual autonomy" is "myopic." Presumably this means that more far-seeing anarchists will renounce their individual autonomy (self-direction) in favor of an organizational ideology and/or organizational directives and/or democratic majority decisions made somewhere. If there is another explanation I'd really like to hear it. After this his argument reverts to the www.infoshop.org "Anarchy after Leftism" web discussion. He complains that "several spokespeople for post-left positions emphatically declared their opposition to egalitarianism." No context or definitions are given by Staudenmaier, though there is a long history of anarchist critiques of egalitarian ideologies which aim to level society by force. (Bakunin's eloquent dictum, "socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality" comes quickly to mind.) Staudenmaier further claims that "a number" of these people "claimed to reject social institutions per se" though once again refusing to explain or contextualize these comments. Who are these "spokespeople" and what did they actually say? Staudenmaier uses these alleged comments to argue that "Though the promoters of these notions strenuously deny it, what this attitude amounts to is a rejection of the very possibility of communal existence." But if they so "strenuously deny" this, couldn't it be that Staudenmaier either misunderstands their positions, or is taking liberties with his description of them? We don't known since he once again refuses to quote or at least cite the precise location of these alleged comments.



But, again, what is the point of all this? Staudenmaier continues to evade the careful critiques that have appeared in Anarchy magazine and in the IAS "Theory & Politics" web column by running away to caricature and denounce some very likely off-hand comments that most people will never see, that nobody can check, and whose importance to anything is far less than clear.




Abstract and Indeterminate Evasions



Staudenmaier gets even more clever in his tactics of evasion when he actually does finally quote a very short, direct comment from the infoshop.org "Anarchy after Leftism" web discussion site: "I want to be left alone." Although he doesn't indicate where in the vast discussion this comment was made or who has made it, I actually recall reading it, and the fact that he quotes it allows anyone with access to the internet to search the infoshop.org discussion site for the comment...and discover immediately that it is taken out of context and completely falsified by Staudenmaier's deliberate misinterpretation of it to mean "free of all the annoying attachments of social life, without other people interjecting their own opinions or offering critical comments on each other's behavior." But this complete falsification doesn't keep Staudenmaier from sermonizing about things nobody would disagree with in the first place. He actually condescends to argue that "liberatory forms of social interaction sometimes require us to challenge each other's opinions and actions rather than just accepting them....[blah, blah, blah.]" Oh my, please tell us it's not so!



But this insipidly intentional misunderstanding by Staudenmaier gets even worse. As with any effective sermonizing a devil must be produced, which in this case is a devious serpent he calls "post-left repressive tolerance," whose "deeper implications" he divines to be "an invitation to intolerance and parochialism." My, my, my. So much to divine from so little (manufactured) evidence! Let's be crystal clear. Post-left anarchist critiques are based upon the careful study of world history, including the history of the left. They are critiques of well over a hundred years of the whole range of actual, sustained leftist theories and practices, with all their gory, too-often totalitarian or just-plain brutal results. Post-left anarchist critiques do not call for refusing to learn from history or from the vast experiences of peoples around the world in revolt. On the contrary, post-left critiques call for examining and seeking to understand every significant form of contestation in which people engage around the world, in every level of society and in every sphere of life. Constructing a mythical "post-left repressive tolerance" from an out-of-context quote that "I want to be left alone" is simply a breathtaking exercise in bad faith.



Moving on from this, Staudenmaier hesitates for not even a second before launching a different-but nearly as breathtaking-evasion, this time seeking to minimize into nonexistence the criticisms of leftism (most of which it is now clear he dare not ever explicitly acknowledge in any detail) that I make in "Leaving the Left Behind." He alleges that I focus my attention "on the manifold shortcomings of contemporary radical politics." (Who would have guessed?) And that I charge that "leftists have incomplete, self-contradictory theories about capitalism and social change." But he acknowledges this focus and this charge only in order to dismiss them absolutely from either importance or consideration by saying simply, "But we all have these." Okay! We all have incomplete, self-contradictory theories. Who cares if some lead to dictatorship and others lead to incoherence, if some lead to support for repression and others lead to support for all forms of contestation? We're all in the same leftist boat according to Staudenmaier, and I shouldn't be rocking it. No matter that I have made detailed and highly specific criticisms of leftism in my essay. He argues that "Capitalism is a contradictory system. Revolutionary social change is an incomplete process. Working through these contradictions requires close attention to the concrete determinants of currently prevalent modes of domination and hierarchy, so that we can create forms of resistance adequate to the particular demands of our specific historical and social situation." Wow. I guess that means as long as we don't raise any criticisms of the left, then, everything will be hunky-dory! As long as we don't do anything rash like speaking of "a commitment to 'general social revolt,'" which according to Staudenmaier would "promote the kind of false generalism that is already rife in North American anarchist circles," we'll weather the storm and all will be well. Staudenmaier says it's alright if we "learn from the civil rights struggle...or the strategies pioneered by peasant revolts in the global south" as long as we don't generalize too much or criticize the role of the left in these contestations. Worst of all, anarchists should never even think it is possible that the anarchist milieu could "stand on its own and bow to no other movements." The direct implication is that unless it subordinates itself to the left the anarchist movement "will be ill equipped to engage in this sort of learning process." The only thing never explained is what the hell subordinating anarchism to leftism has to do with any of this at all-except in his own mind? In this case, too much abstract and indeterminate evasiveness makes for absolute incoherence.



The Obligatory Fascist Smear




Given the history of Staudenmaier's concerns with the likelihood that any forms of critical theory and practice except his own are liable to be co-opted by fascism, it is unsurprising that he raises the specter of an alleged post-left anarchist susceptibility to the allures of this bogeyman. His evidence? He claims that "A few post-left anarchists go so far as to extol the right wing tendencies within anarchism as a healthy corrective to the grave dangers of social equality and the dastardly connivance of anarchists and power-mad leftists." Wow. I'd love to see the names of these "post-left anarchists," along with the wild quotations in prominent places that must have led to Staudenmaier's unconstrained paraphrasing! Oh, I almost forgot, that's not how Staudenmaier operates. But couldn't we at least see some sort of citations allowing us to find the origin of his accusations? Not likely. Classified leftist information, I suppose. Not that it's impossible for people to say such things (one assumes on the anonymous internet...since they wouldn't likely get into print anywhere). But given a lack of citation or direct quotation we're once again left entirely in the dark, just as Staudenmaier apparently wants us to be. Were these real comments? If so were they actually made by anarchists or by people posing as post-leftists? (The latter is always possible in the almost completely anonymous and pseudonymous world of internet discussion free-for-alls where it's impossible to know who is really speaking, and where it's fully possible to see people post the most insane comments under your own name.)



What these nasty, unverifiable allegations by Staudenmaier evade is the incredibly huge, dirty secret that in historical actuality (as opposed to leftist fantasy), it was ex-leftists in immense numbers who helped populate the fascist movements (which, of course, is not to belittle the many leftists who never abandoned the anti-fascist struggle during this time). It certainly wasn't a few insignificant anarchist critics of the left who helped push fascism into power. And the reason for the easy conversion of masses of leftists to fascist and Nazi causes was that leftism and fascism are similar in so many more ways than anarchism and fascism are. National socialism (one form of fascism) substitutes the nation as the collectivist focus, while class-struggle socialism and syndicalism center on class as the collectivist focus around which life is to be subordinated. Red Fascism (Bolshevism) is a form of national socialism paradoxically built on an ideology of class struggle. Left anarchists must deal with this dirty history of the left straightforwardly if they want to be taken seriously. Making smears based on unverifiable allegations, while ignoring the bulk of actual history, does nothing to enhance the reputation of left anarchism.



For a Rational Discussion of Anarchism and the Left



Seldom have I seen a less direct and more evasive response to anything in the
anarchist milieu than Staudenmaier's "Anarchists in Wonderland." But putting
it behind us, where does that leave us? Certainly no wiser about any intelligent,
rational arguments against post-left critiques, though I, for one, am certain
that such arguments can be made and would welcome them. To repeat the recommendations
in the editorial
of the new Anarchy magazine
issue might be the best place to start. (See
www.anarchymag.org for the entire editorial.)



"1) Always attack the comments made rather than the author(s). This is accomplished by avoiding a number of things, and by accomplishing one simple goal. Avoid making spurious, irrelevant, or patently false accusations by sticking resolutely to actual points made in the words and context in which the author(s) you want to criticize has actually made them! If you can't quote the author(s) (without distorting the context) and address your criticisms directly to the quoted words, then simply don't comment! (Here I guess I should add that citations of some sort should be made when referencing lengthy source documents so that readers can find what you are talking about to check on its context and meaning themselves.)



"2) Refuse straw man
arguments
. Challenge the actual meaning of the words you quote by either
accepting the definitions used by the author you want to criticize, or by making
it clear why you think the author's definitions are so inadequate as to require
different definitions. If you can't find any place where an author actually
has said something you want to criticize, don't argue that she or he has said
it, or would agree with it, or secretly believes it. If one person makes a particular
statement, this does not mean that all people you may want to group with that
person agree with that statement. If you want to draw some logical conclusions
from the author's statements in order to criticize them (or to show that the
statements lead to absurd conclusions), then first run your alleged logical
conclusions by several people to make sure that your conclusions are more solid
than idiosyncratic, and then be sure to acknowledge that it is your conclusions
that are absurd, and not the author's.



"Above all, read any texts you want to criticize with extreme care. Avoid superficial readings and always make a conscientiousness effort to understand what is at stake. If there is something you don't understand, then simply ask about it before you criticize it."



Beyond these points we can also learn from Staudenmaier's peculiar odyssey into his own little wonderland:



1) Argue with your opponents strongest positions. If you want to criticize Marxism, for example, don't focus primarily on the words of Stalin's barber. If you want to criticize anarchism, don't settle for a criticism of Proudhon's patriarchal attitudes. Going after irrelevant targets of opportunity is a show of weakness, never strength.



2) Try a little turnabout. Would your arguments make sense to you if someone else turned them on you in some form? If not, don't use them.



3) Keep your abstractions grounded with convincing details, examples, quotations and documentation. Anyone can construct abstract platitudes. It's what the abstractions mean for everyday practice that makes any real difference to people.




____________________


NOTES:





1) According to the New Oxford American Dictionary "left wing" is defined as "the liberal, socialist, or radical section of a political party or system. [with reference to the National Assembly in France (1789-91), where the nobles sat to the president's right and the commons to the left]." "Left" or "the left" is similarly defined as "a group or party favoring liberal, socialist, or radical views." In common usage in North America the left includes liberals, socialists, communists and a few other lesser movements (or remnants of movements, like the Single-Taxers, Distributivists or Mutualists). Anarchists are sometimes included and sometimes not, when they are acknowledged by people to exist at all.



For an interesting diagram representing the U.S. left from the perspective
of U.S. social democrats see the "Left-Wing Lingo, Ideologies and History" web
site
: http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/leftling.htm#history Notably, on
this web site anarchists are almost entirely absent from the picture, with only
minor references to "the anarchist wing of the Left Green Network (LGN), which
is the moribund, left wing of the Greens USA, associated with Murray Bookchin
and the Institute for Social Ecology," and the Fifth Estate (described as "eco-anarchist").




2) According to the New Oxford American Dictionary "cadre" is defined as "a small group of people specially trained for a particular purpose or profession" or "a group of activists in a communist or other revolutionary organization." And similarly, according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary "cadre" is defined as "a nucleus or core group especially of trained personnel able to assume control and to train others," or, "a cell of indoctrinated leaders active in promoting the interests of a revolutionary party." I use the word "cadre" in the sense of a person or people assimilated into organizations whose ideologies they have learned and reproduce, and to whose goals they subordinate their own thinking and activities. Cadre organizations are quite different from anarchist organizations, which are based upon critical self-theory, self-activity and self-organization-preserving individual and small group autonomy and refusing to surrender sovereignty to any group, leadership or temporary majority.




3) The fact that Richard Gombin employs an idiosyncratic definition of "leftism" doesn't, however, lessen the importance of his book as a study of some of the most important French currents which attempted to transcend leftism as it is more commonly defined, which is why C.A.L. Press has long distributed it. In his book Gombin defines "...leftism as that segment of the revolutionary movement which offers, or hopes to offer, a radical alternative to Marxism-Leninism as a theory of the labour movement and its development." (The Origins of Modern Leftism, p.17) This extremely narrow definition (Gombin is aware it is unusual, and calls it a "technical" definition as opposed to what he calls "the generally accepted, journalist's" definition) would leave out most of what is commonly considered the left in North America, and is obviously not what either post-left anarchists or Staudenmaier have in mind in use of the term. Staudenmaier's reference to this book and to Gombin's analysis is obviously meant to mystify, since he expects that most people reading his essay will not be familiar with it, and he certainly has no intention of putting it in any sort of intelligent context.




4) According to the New Oxford American Dictionary "individualism" is defined as "the habit or principle of being independent and self-reliant." While the secondary definition is "a social theory favoring freedom of action for individuals over collective or state control." The American Heritage Dictionary defines "individualism" as "1a. Belief in the primary importance of the individual and in the virtues of self-reliance and personal independence. b. Acts or an act based on this belief. 2a. A doctrine advocating freedom from government regulation in the pursuit of a person's economic goals. b. A doctrine holding that the interests of the individual should take precedence over the interests of the state or social group. 3a. The quality of being an individual; individuality." And according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, "individualism" is "political and social philosophy that places high value on the freedom of the individual and generally stresses the self-directed, self-contained, and comparatively unrestrained individual."




5) According to the New Oxford American Dictionary "collectivism" is defined as "the practice or principle of giving a group priority over each individual in it." This is the way most people in the U.S. will understand the term. The secondary definition given, one not used in this essay (nor in "Leaving the Left Behind"), is "the theory and practice of the ownership of land and the means of production by the people or the state." According to the Encyclopedia Britannica "collectivism" is "any of several types of social organization in which the individual is seen as being subordinate to a social collectivity such as a state, a nation, a race, or a social class."




6) Every major anarchist theorist--Godwin,
Stirner,
Proudhon,
Bakunin,
Guillaume, Kropotkin,
Faure, Malatesta--has
strongly defended the goals of individual freedom and self-realization in ways
both absent from and incompatible with (non-anarchist) leftism. Only the most
rabidly leftist of anarchists agree with the bulk of left opinion that even
Bakunin or Kropotkin or Malatesta must be denounced for their lapses into excessive
"individualism."




7) Perhaps I should have made it absolutely clear that not only does the anarchist
idea have an indelibly individualist foundation, but that the actual history
of anarchist milieux and movements has been overwhelmingly socialist or communist
as well. I have to admit that this seems so incredibly self-evident to me that
I never would have imagined Staudenmaier might in his wildest imagination attempt
to claim or imply I thought otherwise! As anyone who has read Anarchy magazine
for the last twenty years might realize, I've never propounded an ideology of
individualist anarchism, though I have consistently championed the importance
of Max
Stirner's
(widely misunderstood) phenomenological analyses of subjectivity
and ideology for social revolutionary anarchist theory and practice. (Stirner,
by the way, would have been the first to deny the label of "individualist anarchist"
that so many wish to pin on him.) I've long considered myself an anti-ideological
anarchist first and foremost-which means that I am both an individualist and
communist in the nonideological meanings of these terms. Anyone attempting to
construct my anti-political theoretical and practical positions as being exclusively
(not to mention, ideologically) "individualist" must first selectively ignore,
obscure or deny at least nine-tenths of what I have written over the last twenty
years or so, and then explain how the other decontextualized ten percent still
can make any sense. In other words, this would be a task of blatant falsification
(not that other Social Ecologists haven't already proven their adeptness at
this kind of task).

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The Incredible Lameness of Left-Anarchism by Jason McQuinn | 78 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
comment by Hunimund
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, October 03 2005 @ 04:44 PM CDT
Voting is essentially an archic act, in that it is support for someone or something that is hierarchal. Therefore voting is not an anarchist act.
comment by Hunimund
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 01:19 PM CST
OK. I think I get this now.

So post-left anarchism is not a rejection of left anarchism but an effort to reexamine left anarchism, an effort to use anarchist theory to question and transform anarchist theory. Just as we reject sexist and racist elements in certain early anarchist works, we should reject similar errors in early or recent anarchist works.

Anarchism is not a tradition!
comment by anarcho
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 01:28 PM CST
seems to me that the term \"post-left\" has resulted in lots of
pointless debates.

Perhaps we can drop the term and get on with building anarchism,
as anarchism is, by definition, against the state socialism of the
left and in favour of individual freedom and collective self-management.

but why bother doing that when we can have lots of articles trying to
define what \"post-left\" means... :)
comment by (I)An-ok Ta Chai
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 01:40 PM CST
Yeah... I believe that Jason McQuinn once said something in an earlier piece of writing of his, something along the lines of post-left anarchism being about getting anarchism back to it\'s roots, back to what it is supposedly all about to begin with. So often we get so caught up in all the various tactics, strategies, controversies, traditions, and rhetoric that we lose our focus on being against *ALL* forms of authority and domination, *wherever* they show themselves.

To use religious terminology, perhaps post-left anarchism could be better described as \"fundamentalist anarchism\" and leftist anarchism can be described as \"orthodox anarchism\".
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 02:10 PM CST
These debates have ranged from pretty useful to pretty pointless. The pointless discussions have mainly involved a few anarchists who subscribe to the One Big Anarchy Magazine Cabal conspiracy theory. Peter Staudenmaier is not among these people, but Jason takes Peter to task for other errors in argument. It\'s too bad that a handful of people who knee-jerk against post-leftism have tended to dominate the debates. This will change.
comment by Sven
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 02:18 PM CST
It should also be said that, while anarchism (in the meaning of libertarian socialism) has traditionally been with the left as concerns the economical struggles (see also anarcho-syndicalism), from a more political and theoretical point of view it is obviously neither left nor right, as it is essentially a dynamical synthesis between classic liberalism (traditional \"right\") and socialism (traditional \"left\") - being that classic liberalism is essentially an incomplete theory of individual freedom, and socialism an incomplete theory of social equality, with anarchism as their transcendence and synthesis, so to say...
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 02:24 PM CST
Yes and no. You are understanding part of this, the part having to do with the fundamentals of anarchism. Jason and the rest of us are not trying to \"get back\" to the fundamentals of anarchism, rather to raise awareness among anarchists that anarchism has some fundamentals that underlie *all forms* of anarchism. The need for this is most obvious in recent discussions about anarchists and voting. We\'ve seen several so-called anarchists argue that voting in elections is compatible with anarchist ideas. This preposterous argument contradicts over a century of anarchist thought and practice. We are anarchists *because* we advocate direct action, cooperation and self-management. If we wanted to run candidates for public office, we would be leftists not anarchists.

There are *root* and *fundamental* aspects of anarchism which some contemporary anarchists just don\'t get. I\'ve even seen anarchists arguing stuff that contradicts An Anarchist FAQ.

The fact that we are arguing for the fundamentals of anarchism does not make us fundamentalists. Fundamentalists are people who believe that the basic doctrines of their religion should never be changed. Speaking for myself, one of the things I like about anarchism is its syncretic ability to absorb new ideas and practices and go in new directions.

And I think it is unhelpful to posit post-left anarchism as being against left anarchism. If anything should be understood about post-leftism, it\'s that it is about *confronting* and *criticizing* leftist ideas that continue to permeate anarchism. Post-leftism is not about purging some group of leftist anarchists from anarchism, despite what a few people want to believe.

And (I)An-ok Ta Chai, there is no good reason to change the label for post-leftism. Post-leftism is about leftism and anarchism. It\'s also about the current historical situation, in which anarchism exists in a post-leftist world (fall of Soviet Union and all that). What I like about post-leftism is that it is a pretty good microscope when it comes to examining the position of anarchism in this post-left world.
comment by Makhno
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 02:51 PM CST
Another excellent reply to Staudenmaier\'s article, this one by Lawrence Jarach, can be found here: http://pub47.ezboard.com/fanarchykkafrm1.showMessage?topicID=546.topic
comment by Hunimund
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 05:07 PM CST
Uh, Chuck...

\"We\'ve seen several so-called anarchists argue that voting in elections is compatible with anarchist ideas. This preposterous argument contradicts over a century of anarchist thought and practice.\"

While it is certainly traditional to reject all electoral involvement, we need to reexamine the theoretical basis to understand what will and will not help the movement. Elections cannot produce anarchism. Even if we win such elections, the tools of public office, the state, cannot serve our ends. And we would need to ensure fair elections, a futile task while the state survives.

That said, we need to get away from the silly nonsense about \"participation in the system.\" If I vote, I will know I reject the system within which the vote takes place; and if I don\'t vote the media will still pretend I accept the system within which the vote takes place. NOT voting is considered an act of consent. There is no one meaning determined by the machinery in the polling place; there is the meaning intended by those who do or do not vote, and the meaning propounded by those who control the media.

The issues, as I understand them, are as follows:

(1) Is voting inherently an archic act?
(2) Does voting turn our organizations into hierarchies?
(3) Does voting divert our resources from useful avenues of struggle?

And I have to say the answers are no, no, and no. Well, things could go wrong if we turned infoshop into a propaganda site for some party. So there is a difference between the choices of individual anarchists and the choices of the anarchist community as a whole.

\"We are anarchists *because* we advocate direct action, cooperation and self-management. If we wanted to run candidates for public office, we would be leftists not anarchists.\"

Nobody here is either talking about running for office or about abandoning direct action. If it (voting) doesn\'t contradict anarchism, we can still be anarchists.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 05:12 PM CST
\"Left\". Who would have thought such a little word would create such passionate discussion. My impression is that the word \"left\" describes the leanings of a state. So wouldn\'t left/right discussion be moot for anarchists?
The individual and the community.. that tension is what is interesting.. a paradox for many.. an anarchist koan.. what individual freedoms are restricted for social cohesion? What social stabilities are sacrificed for individual freedom? This \"left\" discussion appears to me as the mother of all semantic arguements.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 09:39 PM CST
Of course they can be pretty. ;-) It depends on how mature and intelligent you are when dealing with political discussions. I\'m glad that Jason wrote this response to Peter because I think that it clears up alot of misconceptions about post-anarchism. Of course, if people don\'t *read* everything he has written, or refuse to abandon their conspiracy theories, then this essay will be a waste of time for them and everybody else.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 08:18 PM CST
These debates have ranged from pretty useful to pretty pointless.

I disagree. These debates have never been pretty.
comment by Para-annoyer.
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 08:37 PM CST
\"...for me post-leftism is mostly about tactics and politics. I just think that more of us need to come out as anarchists in our activism and do a better job of putting our principles into practice. I\'m not against working with people on the left, but I think that we often spend too much time working with the left at the expense of our anarchist politics.\" [Chuck-O commenting on the Staudenmeier article]

Hope ya don\'t mind me re-posting this comment of yours from a previous debate Chuck. It strikes me as being about the most sensible thing said on the whole topic. My own dilemma here (Oz) is to find constructive ways to engage the general public. That means a very pragmatic approach as far as doing a \'strategy\'(and practice) that works. I actually couldn\'t care less if I\'m classed as \'leftist\' or whatever... but what I really want to do is stir the public to action. The revolution must come from the people - we can\'t control things but we can contribute to the debate and put forward our ideas. So from the purely practical approach I am looking at strategies to be more on the attack and actually SET the agenda. As far as I\'m concerned the \'old left\' can go and rot in a corner somewhere, it\'s time to move on and push the boundaries. (Perhaps that is what McQuinn is saying in his long rant?)

And as far as the whole socialist V individualist thing... I think there\'s too much paranoia on BOTH sides of the camp. (the individualists have fascist tendencies - the socialist have Leninist tendencies!) Yeah, well we ARE human aren\'t we?
If a \'Bookchinite\' approach (or whatever) has the most chance of working and engaging the public then I am going down that path purely for strategic reasons. Let the \'individualists\' do what they want - they too are free to organise (or not)
And, as an aside to Jason McQuinn - I think giving articles titles like \"The Incredible Lameness...\" smacks more of open hostility and name-calling than rational debate. Sorry, I actually couldn\'t be bothered reading all of your long rant.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 09:45 PM CST
And as far as the whole socialist V individualist thing... I think there\'s too much paranoia on BOTH sides of the camp.

If you had bothered to read all of Jason\'s essay--which you admit you didn\'t do thanks to your intellectual laziness and irresponsibility--you would have read what McQuinn wrote about all of this individualist nonsense. There is NO \"socialist V individualist thing\" in all of this! Jason explicitly pointed out that he is NOT an individualist. Speaking as another post-leftist, I can say that I too am not, nor ever have been, and individualist.

Look, if you are going to engage in a discussion here, at least read the article before making ignorant comments. The reason why essays like the above one have to be written is because there is a problem within anarchist circles with a few loud individuals who scream about a strawman conspiracy instead of *listening* to what the post-leftists are saying.
comment by aragorn!
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 09:46 PM CST
Time and time again I think that we learn that the internet is not the proper place for most of these discussions. While it is a nice distraction, and I enjoy a good scandal as much as the next person, it is not the same as life. Or even the positions that I really take.

Rises comment (as a reflection of the Stuad) is a great example. Internet commentary does not reflect the best of leftist anarchism or any other kind. To use (more or less) anonymous internet comments as the bulk of your vague ad hominem (or your reflexive \"getting nothing substantial back and complete evasion from those writing responses\") attacks against those who should not see this as a format particularly suited to lengthy or reasoned discussion is foolish.

Just as we use magazines to access a certain type of knowledge, that is different than the type of knowledge we get from a book, expecting the Internet to be the same as actually interacting with humans is incorrect.

The newest Fifth Estate speaks to this point also in a way that I liked.

Aragorn!
comment by bk
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 08:58 PM CST
Since when do you care what the system \"considers consent\"? Since when does it make even the slightest difference how the media (the spectacle) interprets nonvoting or the myriad other lies it spouts.

All that shit is completely ridiculous from an anarchist standpoint. It seems to me that your apparent pragmatism is eroding your theoretical grasp of anarchism.
comment by JAH1936
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 10:59 PM CST
Chuck, you keep saying there is a knee-jerk response to post-leftism, but what about McQuinn, Black, Jurach, and Wolfi\'s knee-jerk reactions to pro-worker, pro-organizational anarchism? I mean come on... they immediatly denounce, mock, or simply dismiss it every chance they get, and Anarchy magazine seems to be primarily devoted to denouncing it, rather than taking on capitalism, the right, the school system, religion, fascism, harmful marketing and commercialist-based versions of individuialism, the forced collectivism of corporate society, imperialism around the world, the high (and increasing?) rates of suicide, incarceration, schizophrenia, anti-depressant drug taking, wife and girlfriend beating and murder, the increadibly high amount of sexual molestation and rape of women (and men in prison or the army) in the United States (not to mention Russia and other existentially & socially messed-up countries) and so on... instead they seem to feel that coming up with clever attacks against anarchists that do not reject The Platform, anarcho-communism, words like \"libertarian socialism\", \"anarcho-communism\", \"left libertarian\", \"anarcho-syndicalism\", work (that needs to be done, as opposed to work for profit, slavery, or other coerscivem, unhelpful and unuseful means) ... the impression I get from Anarchy magazine, Post-Leftism, and Primitivism is that their #1 enemy is everyone who comes to conclusions about what anarchism is based on the majority of effective anarchist organizing in history, and the content and description of anarchism in most libraries in the United States.

Jason also is very adapt at taking every argument against Post-Leftism and using it as arguments against his opponents. How can he even have Bob Black or Feral or Wolfi as people on his side and make accusations against his opponents of ad-homenim, avoiding the arguments, straw-men, and so on? It\'s like he takes whatever we say and pretends he is saying it first against US.
comment by JAH1936
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 11:04 PM CST
Chuck, if you looked at McQuinn\'s original essay that Staudenmaier responded to, you would have seen that McQuinn made it very clear that \"post left anarchism\" was primarily \"individualist\". Also, where do you get off on saying \"thanks to your intellectual laziness and irresponsibility\"? That sounds very insulting and aggressive to me. Would you mind it if we said that kind of thing to you and your fellow post-left anarchists?
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, January 03 2004 @ 11:41 PM CST
McQuinn has been very consistent about saying that he isn\'t individualist, but the problem is that some people see him quoting Stirner and assume that he is an individualist. The same goes for people who think that I\'m an individualist because I collaborate with Jason McQuinn on some projects. This is how one false assumption get compounded by another false assumption. This is an example of sloppy thinking

I\'m not going to apologize for my tone. And when you say \"we,\" who exactly are you talking about? And why am I being lumped into a grouping of \"my fellow post-left anarchists?\" Can \"we\" address my opinions separately from Jason McQuinn\'s? This is what Jason is getting at in this essay--people aren\'t discussing points of contention because they are too busy creating strawmen. Why are the discussions around post-leftism being cast in terms of one faction versus another faction? The post-leftists aren\'t doing this!
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 12:07 AM CST
Chuck, you keep saying there is a knee-jerk response to post-leftism, but what about McQuinn, Black, Jurach, and Wolfi\'s knee-jerk reactions to pro-worker, pro-organizational anarchism?

How does their opinions about \"pro-organizational anarchism\" have anything to do with the discussion over post-leftism? Can you separate out the fact that McQuinn has certain opinions on post-leftism and other opinions on other anarchist issues? See, your statement here is a perfect illustration of what Jason is talking about in the above essay. You believe that some evil cabal exists between a groups of individuals associated with Anarchy magazine that are out \"get\" the forms of anarchism you believe in. This is complete nonsense, of course. McQuinn, Black and the other may share some opinions on certain issues (which is why they *collaborate* on a magazine), but they aren\'t engaging in some conspiracy to do whatever to some form of anarchism with adjectives. They have their opions about different issues in anarchism, which is why you read their thoughts in the *critical* magazine that is Anarchy: AJODA.

I mean come on... they immediatly denounce, mock, or simply dismiss it every chance they get, and Anarchy magazine seems to be primarily devoted to denouncing it, rather than taking on capitalism, the right, the school system, religion, fascism, harmful marketing and commercialist-based versions of individuialism, the forced collectivism of corporate society, imperialism around the world, the high (and increasing?) rates of suicide, incarceration, schizophrenia, anti-depressant drug taking, wife and girlfriend beating and murder, the increadibly high amount of sexual molestation and rape of women (and men in prison or the army) in the United States (not to mention Russia and other existentially & socially messed-up countries) and so on...

Because Anarchy magazine is primarily devoted to publishing critical articles about contemporary anarchism. You are asking them to be something that they clearly aren\'t interested in being. I\'ve made similar criticisms of NEFAC for turning Northeastern Anarchist into a theoretical journal addressed to other anarchists. Contrary to your words, I respect NEFAC\'s decision and instead publish Practical Anarchy, which is oriented towards non-anarchists. A critical review magazine is supposed to be confrontational, in your face, and critical! Why do you think that it is so popular?

instead they seem to feel that coming up with clever attacks against anarchists that do not reject The Platform, anarcho-communism, words like \"libertarian socialism\", \"anarcho-communism\", \"left libertarian\", \"anarcho-syndicalism\", work (that needs to be done, as opposed to work for profit, slavery, or other coerscivem, unhelpful and unuseful means)

I\'ve been reading Anarchy magazine for almost 20 years (holy shit!) and I\'ve seen them examine all kinds of issues within anarchism and many outside of anarchism. Anarchy magazine is a general interest critical magazine. They\'ve even attacked Primitivism, but that seems to be lost on a few people who see the magazine as an evil cabal bent on going after certain anarchist tendencies.

... the impression I get from Anarchy magazine, Post-Leftism, and Primitivism is that their #1 enemy is everyone who comes to conclusions about what anarchism is based on the majority of effective anarchist organizing in history, and the content and description of anarchism in most libraries in the United States.

Huh? Is this the official name of the evil cabal?

\"Anarchy-Magazine-Post-Leftism-Primitivism(tm)\"?

The evil cabal behind Anarchy magazine doesn\'t have a #1 enemy because the evil cabal doesn\'t exist (long live the evil cabal). JAH, I know that you\'ve read the Anarchy magazine issues on primitivism and probably read the articles where several AJODA editors explained why they aren\'t primitivists. How does this refusal jibe with your assertion that some group that embraces primitivism is out to get some other anarchist tendencies?

It doesn\'t jibe, which is why you need to drop these silly notions once and for all.

Jason also is very adapt at taking every argument against Post-Leftism and using it as arguments against his opponents.

It\'s called using your brain to create arguments against your opponents (if the exchange is that adversarial).

How can he even have Bob Black or Feral or Wolfi as people on his side

You are conflating co-editors with ideological bedmates. The above essay was signed by Jason McQuinn. It is not a joint statement with Bob Black, Feral Faun, and Wolfi. Address Jason\'s arguments, not some strawmen conspiracy.

Why don\'t we drag Raoul Vaneigem and Allan Antliff into this cabal? They\'ve contributed to past issues of Anarchy magazine. Hell, add me to the cabal as the webmaster of Anarchy magazine, nevermind the fact that I disagree with half of what Zerzan, Wolfie, and Bob Black write.

and make accusations against his opponents of ad-homenim, avoiding the arguments, straw-men, and so on? It\'s like he takes whatever we say and pretends he is saying it first against US.

Jason is responding to his opponents, who are far more vocal thanks to the Internet. The amount of bashing of Anarchy magazine that happens on the Internet on a constant basis makes it easy to forgive McQuinn for the rhetorical nature of his response.
comment by guttersnipe
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 12:17 AM CST
I\'m going to decline to get involved in most of the potential issues of debate here. For example, I\'ll take a pass on analyzing whether or not Jason McQuinn has, in discussing Shawn Ewald and stating without support that Ewald\'s \"posts are full of this kind of bizarre stuff,\" McQuinn has violated the first principle of his own editorial (\"1) Always attack the comments made rather than the author(s). This is accomplished by avoiding a number of things, and by accomplishing one simple goal. Avoid making spurious, irrelevant, or patently false accusations by sticking resolutely to actual points made in the words and context in which the author(s) you want to criticize has actually made them! If you can\'t quote the author(s) (without distorting the context) and address your criticisms directly to the quoted words, then simply don\'t comment!\")

However, I will venture to point out that historically, many anarchists have in words and/or in practice deviated from pure electoral abstentionism. Proudhon, for example, ran for and was elected to public office after he had proclaimed himself an anarchist. In Spain in the late 1935-early \'36 period, prominent anarchists such as Urales and Durruti and others spoke in favor of voting against the far-right on a \"lesser of two evils\" rationale, and while the FAI and CNT gave lip-service to electoral abstentionism they did not mount any sort of active abstentionist propaganda campaign as they had done a couple years earlier.

I\'m not saying that those folks went down the best path (reminding me of Yogi Berra\'s famous advice that \"when you come to a fork in the road, take it!\"). I\'m simply saying that pure, undeviating electoral abstentionism should not be a litmus test for who is or isn\'t an anarchist.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 12:29 AM CST
I\'m going to decline to get involved in most of the potential issues of debate here. For example, I\'ll take a pass on analyzing whether or not Jason McQuinn has, in discussing Shawn Ewald and stating without support that Ewald\'s \"posts are full of this kind of bizarre stuff,\" McQuinn has violated the first principle of his own editorial (\"1)

Good point, but keep in mind that McQuinn was trying to make heads or tails out of a rather convoluted thread on post-leftism on Flag forums. I tried to step in to moderate that discussion to weed out the trolls, but I got my hands slapped.

I\'m simply saying that pure, undeviating electoral abstentionism should not be a litmus test for who is or isn\'t an anarchist.

When I argue that electoralism is incompatible with anarchism, I\'m not saying that whether you vote or not should be a litmus test for who is an anarchist. As I\'ve argued many times, it\'s perfectly understandable that some anarchists vote for personal reasons. One anarchist might think that voting on local referenda is something where one can still have an impact. Another anarchist may be uncomfortable with a total rejection of voting. But at the same time, those who argue that voting is compatible with anarchism are simply wrong. Anarchism argues for a radically different way to achieve social change. It is also opposed to the legitimacy that electoralism gives to the state. Some anarchists may vote as individuals, but anarchism is against electoralism. This is a fundamental precept of anarchist theory.
comment by Brad Religion
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 01:07 AM CST
Ok, perhaps everybody is in on something that I\'m not, but, uh, I have to take issue with:

\". . . some post-leftist somewhere has argued that leftist \"movements are disintegrating, trapped in inevitable decline.\" Does any anarchist besides Staudenmaier think differently since the fall of the Berlin Wall, the disintegration of the Soviet Union, the collapse of the Maoist ideological facade in China, the capitulation of social democratic regimes in the face of neo-liberal imperatives, etc.? \"

What the hell do social democratic regimes, the Soviet Union, etc. have to do with the left? This anarchist has, quite on the contrary, seen a rise of legitmately leftist movements.

As to the rest of the essay, I\'m afraid I didn\'t get much from it. Jason has done an excellent job of ripping up the arguments, without giving much discusion to any of them. It\'s good for me to see that Staudenmaier sources were lousy, his research incomplete, etc., but I aquired very little information that would make me suddenly declare myself a post-left anarchist. Though I suppose, given what I\'ve read thus far, I could probably fake it. A little change of lingo here and BANG! Because, really, what most of this seems to hinge on is definitions of the left/left\"ism\" (Leftism being a horrible corruption, as a vague grouping of anti-capitalist economic ideas hardly constitutes an ideology). Sure, if we continue to accept mainstream definitions of the left, assume it to refer to traditional leftist bodies with rigid frameworks, controled memberships, yadda-yadda, then, hell, let\'s all heap on the criticism and invent some words. Alternatively, if we accept a more broad usage of left, we can get over this whole rediculous tangent and move on with our lives. Let\'s look for a moment, at the Earth Liberation Front (Hey! Hey! Hey! OI!). Now, as far as I can tell, the ELF passes all the post-leftist \"Tests\" as it were. At the same time, I don\'t believe their is any element of the ELF which is in conflict with leftist theory. I mean, hey, I get away with calling myself leftist, and honestly, I see the ELF as an excellent model of organization.

In closing (Because it\'s 3AM in Halifax, and I want to get some sleep!), if you don\'t like NEFAC, or you think general strikes are a waste of time (And, evidently, not all post-left anarchists feel this way) this does not mean you\'ve created some exciting new critical theory and need an exciting title like post-left anarchism. When you\'ve come up with a model of organization that is absolutely incompatable with the left, you can call yourself a postleftist. Or a dirty primi.

Literally I mean, \'cause, let\'s face it, primitivism and hygine hardly skip gayly down the lane together.

Some day, I\'m going to post at a reasonable hour, and I\'m going to say something worth reading. YA!

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


I think I\'m going to go start shit on the CPC message board. Heh. Authoritarians. Teehee.
comment by pr
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 02:52 AM CST
If only Jason were right! Unfortunately the left anarchists are far from lame and some of them are well placed to do a lot of damage to anarchism. Search on \"Nessie, Al Geraldo and Venezuala\" for one example and closely study the SCO like behavior of the plats and some anarco-swindicalists - also trace back their roots and links and red danger signs light up.
Even a lame animal can be highly dangerous, certainly most people bitten by snakes have been trying to kill them. Leftism is one of those snakes that remain alive and dangerous even after being decapitated. Handle with care and burn and bury would be my advice. Sow the ground with salt.
comment by Sven
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 06:09 AM CST
Sorry, I don\'t have the time right now to read the whole thread, but I\'d just comment this line in the (interesting) article above:

Anyone ever hear of post-left Trotskyism? Of course not. It doesn\'t exist.

Actually (as I\'ve probably also said some time ago...), AFAIK there\'s at least one ex-Trotskyist organization which has evolved (quite positively, also, at least apparently) beyond its traditional, authoritarian leftism: it is the Italian Socialismo Rivoluzionario with its Utopia Socialista branch ( http://www.socialist-utopia.org ), a.k.a. Socialismo Libertario ( http://www.socialismolibertario.org ) in Spain. BTW, they have made some rather interesting studies about human species and gender, for example (not surprisingly, there are many women there), and founded an important alternative association for immigrants in Italy, the Associazione 3 Febbraio ( http://www.a3f.org ). They collaborate with the anarchists of USI ( http://www.ecn.org/usi-ait ) on the \"basic syndicalism\" platform, and are positively influenced by the 1936 Spanish revolution. Sadly, they still have a rather centralized internal structure.

Of course, they are not anarchists, but their theories and practices are indeed heavily influenced by anarchism, seemingly becoming more and more libertarian year after year - definitely a good thing, in the not-too-encouraging \"leftist\" panorama, both in Europe, the US and elsewhere...
comment by anarcho
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 08:03 AM CST
Seems that my comments have been confirmed. Alot of
debate on what \"left\" means and so forth and nothing
positive or constructive to say or do.

but at least anarchists get to call their comrades names
like \"anarco-swindicalists\" -- bloody pathetic. but also
bloody predictable.

Its time that people start to use basic things like clear
language and non-abusive language when arguing
with others.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 09:37 AM CST
So the post-left critique is something that all anarchists agree with, and the organizational critique of formal organizations, be they federal or not and equating them with leftism is something some anarchists agree with, but this critique remains separate from the post-left critique, despite coming from anarchists that identify as post-left?

In McQuinn\'s piece \'Post-Left Anarchy: Leaving the Left Behind\' http://www.anarchist-studies.org/article/articleview/43/3/1/ , he insinuates this rejection by defining what all anarchists are in favor of in regards to organization, explictly leaving out any mention of anarchists favoring formal organization unless he simply means this is what all anarchists agree to, though some have a more expanded role of organization that can include formal forms. But then you have those people that have extreme views, such as Fake Makhno, that would even go as far as to even reject federalism in their critique of organization, and so even here, McQuinn\'s views are challenged in the encompassing \'all\', unless he was willing to disregard the views of a few anarchists that probably are irrelevant to history.

Anyways, I see a connection in the post-left critique along with the critique of formal organization, and the claims of a conspiracy simply point out where these critiques are coming from, and which share a certain crossover in regards to authors, which are specifically not anarchist communist and not anarchist syndicalist (though I would say that most are social anarchists) and thus their critiques will be leveled against the other two dominant strains with a real history behind them.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 10:01 AM CST
Yes, but it\'s still important to address the actual views of people and not their associations. Fake Makhno adheres to an extreme rejectionist line on organization. As another anti-organizationalist, I organize organizations, in fact, this weekend I\'ve been busy working on the nonprofit for this website. For Makhno, his position apparently dictates not working in organizations. My position is more of pragmatic skepticism. I dont know where McQuinn falls exactly, but I know that he is closer to my position then to that of Makhno\'s

Little of this has anything to do with post-leftism other than by association of individuals. I consider myself to be a class war anarchist, so should we lump in all class war anarchists with my views on organization and leftism?
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 12:39 PM CST
Post deleted for violation of the moderation guidelines (Automatic deletion: 8. Criticism of moderation decisions or the deletion of posts. )
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 02:08 PM CST
Post deleted (poster banned from posting last year).
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 03:53 PM CST
And? Don\'t you ever use a variety of labels to describe your views?
comment by Magic Missile
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 04:09 PM CST
Over the years I have come to this conclusive definition of \"left\" and it has yet to fail me :

Human beings are essentially equal.

It follows that society should be an interaction of equals.

aspiring to equality. simple as that. note that this does not mean carbon copy individuals or that genetic differences do not exist etc. it means everyone is valuable.

This definition covers it all, from anarchism to liberalism to state communism...

the \"right\" naturally falls into the opposite definition:

Human beings are essentially unequal.

teke it or leave it.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 03:43 PM CST
Jason McQuinn states in an interview, published a few years back in the Mid-West anarchist anthology \"Passionate and Dangerous\" that he considers himself to be, in no uncertain terms, a \"Stirnerite INDIVIDUALIST\". These are his words, from his mouth. Maybe his politics have changedsince then, but I seriously doubt it.
comment by Makhno
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 04:25 PM CST
Hey, Chuck0,

I would take issue with your characterization of my attitude toward organizations. There is nothing about my position that \"dictates not working in organizations\"; I merely wish to associate with those groups or individuals who share my own revolutionary goals and aspirations. Clearly, reformist political organizations of any type do not meet this criterion, nor do sectarian left groups such as NEFAC, Love & Rage, ISO, RCP, etc.

I find it disappointing, though not surprising, that none of the posts in this thread have tried to address the substance of McQuinn\'s critique of Pete Staudenmaier\'s article.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 06:21 PM CST
Thanks for clarifying your position.
comment by Stirner
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 07:55 PM CST
sectarian left groups such as NEFAC, Love & Rage, ISO, RCP, etc.

And by lumping together NEFAC and Love & Rage with the ISO and RCP you are not acting sectarian in anyway? Come on!

comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 08:27 PM CST
It seems that Jason has been quoted out of context from the Passionate and Dangerous interview. If I had more time on my hands I\'d look up that interview.
comment by Shawn
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 10:47 PM CST
Well, I\'m flattered that Mr. McQuinn thinks that a long forgotten post that I made on a debate I know longer care about was so important to him that he felt the need to criticise it in his article. It\'s also amusing that he had to strip my post of almost all meaning before he felt comfortable enough to rebuke it in his \"analysis\".

For those interested, you can find my uneditied comments here:
http://flag.blackened.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1255
They speak for themselves and I simply do not care enough to repost them here.

The irony in Mr. McQuinn\'s preaching about reasoned debate and critical thinking is that Mr. McQuinn is, and has always been, merely a polemicist, and his calls for reason and critical thought are ultimately nothing more than a new figleaf to disguise this consistent fact of his writing style.

Let me say that I actually think that so-called \"pro-organization\" anarchists are often incredibly oblivious to the shortcomings of their beliefs and the impracticality of their revolutionary goals, especially when they come in contact with the real world. However, and this may come as a surprise to Mr. McQuinn, I am nither a \"pro-organization\" anarchist NOR am I a so-called \"post-leftist\".

I am certainly in favor of organization because you simply cannot do anything without organization of some kind, but the problem with organizaton of the \"pro-organization\" anarchist variety is that their method of organization is pre-determined by their ideology -- and regional and cultural differences, or reality itself, be damned. \"Pro-organization\" anarchists subscribe to a kind of McRevolution(tm) in which a certain kind of social organization, be it collectivism or syndicalism or council commmunism, is treated like a one-size-fits-all solution.

This is not to say that \"pro-organization\" anarchists are bad people or closet Stalinists, as Mr. McQuinn often likes to imply (and not only imply), they are just not very deep thinkers about what it really means to have an anarchist revolution (or evolution for that matter) or about the very complex nature of human societies.

On the other extreme of the debate (ideological extremes within the spectrum of anachist thought is what we\'re really talking about here), so called \"post-left\" anarchism is really just a critque without a solution -- and it\'s not even that good as a critique. It doesn\'t necessarily have to have a solution to the problems it critques, but a critque alone does not make a movement.

It\'s whole reason for existence comes from the fact that \"pro-organization\" anarhism exists. If anarcho-communism, syndicalism, etc. didn\'t exist, \"post-leftism\" wouldn\'t exist either -- it doesn\'t follow that the vaguely defined anarchism that \"post-leftism\" champions would exist in the absence of \"pro-organization\" anarchism.

The problem with \"post-leftism\" is that there\'s no \"there\" there. It is essentially a thought experiment for academics and psuedo-academics, like Mr. McQuinn, to play around with.

The first poster on this thread summed up the \"post-leftist\" argument quite nicely, I think:

\"So post-left anarchism is not a rejection of left anarchism but an effort to reexamine left anarchism, an effort to use anarchist theory to question and transform anarchist theory. Just as we reject sexist and racist elements in certain early anarchist works, we should reject similar errors in early or recent anarchist works.

Anarchism is not a tradition!\"

At the risk of sounding snide, if this is the main argument of the \"post-leftists\", my response pretty much amounts to: \"Well, duh!\" What is there really to say about this? Not much. It sounds like a good idea, and it is a good idea. Not exactly earth shattering stuff here. But somehow that\'s not how \"post-leftism\" comes off in the mouths of it\'s supporters.

Let\'s take the follow up argument from Chuck that \"post-leftism\" is about getting back to the roots of anarchism. OK, another good idea, I guess. But what does that really mean? From Prudhon to the present, anarchism has been quite clearly a movement of the left. What non-leftist \"roots\" are the \"post-leftists\" referring to here?

Sure, scttered throughout the history of anarchism, there are anarchist thinkers that could be considered non-leftist, however, they are usually pretty obscure and have never been part of the mainstream of anarchist thought, except within certain factions of anarchism.

In this regard, \"post-leftism\" really reminds me of conservatism in it\'s purest sense, it is a nostalgia for a past that never existed. I think it\'s quite appropriate that one poster in this thread refers to \"post-leftism\" as \"fundamentalist anarchism\".

These are really ludicrously simple problems and questions that \"post-leftism\" has never been able to adequately answer. But, you know, all of this is really moot for me because, like \"pro-organization\" anarchism it\'s proposed methods and solutions have never really been adeqately proven on the ground -- I\'m giving \"post-leftists\" the benefit of the doubt that they even have a methodology or a solution to the problems of transforming society, at least the \"pro-organization\" anarchists have provided that, however flawed their methods and solutions might be.

I\'ll say another thing about myself here, I am not interested in anarchist ideology, it\'s the methodology that matters to me. I don\'t even care if most people ever know what the word anarchism means. If we can transform this world into a world governed by the principles and methods of organization that have historically been associated with anarchism, I wouldn\'t care what they called it, or whether every school age child has read Emma Goldman or not, or whether I never saw another black flag again.

What matters about anarchism is its basic principles and its amazing ideas about organization and human society -- which constantly need to be scrutinized, tested, and updated and not treated like some holy text or religious ritual.

The real problem with \"post-leftism\" is that it contains some pretty basic, but good, ideas that are neither new nor radical, but useful, nonetheless. And these ideas are being used by a small and largely insignificant group of axe-grinders for their own pointless polemical ends.

I think I\'ve wasted enough time on this nonsense, I have better things to do.

Shawn
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, January 04 2004 @ 10:47 PM CST
Post deleted (liberal political correctness).
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 09:51 AM CST
Umm, because titles are used to tease people into reading something? I think McQuinn does an awesome job of addressing Staudenmaier\'s arguments and then uses them as a foil to address bigger problems with left anarchism, some of which are on display in the comments section after his essay.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 09:54 AM CST
Perhaps you can explain to us which egoists you are talking about? Or did you not read the above essay either?
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 09:58 AM CST
waiter! there\'s a tempest in my teacup!
comment by ctresca
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 03:55 AM CST
I would like to see a critique of fascism done from a post-left anarchist viewpoint. I find, generally, that post-left anarchist authors tend to have a very weak understanding of fascism, and how radicals influence fascist ideology.

I would be interested to see how post-left anarchism would respond to the notion that fascism grows out of left-wing movements, most specifically, the failures of the left.

Note that I am an anarcho-syndicalist, and an anti-fascist, but I am also not naive to think that fascists don\'t learn from us. In fact, without our ideas and abilities to reach out to mass audiences, fascism probably would have remained a small subset of right-populism.
comment by marko
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:31 AM CST
\"We get to the heart of one of the biggest differences between anarchism and leftism when we assess the place of individuals in communities and in social change. Anarchists (at least, those anarchists whose anarchism is stronger than their leftism) generally argue that free individuals and free communities cannot be coerced into existence. Leftists argue otherwise. Anarchists contend that individuals and communities should be autonomous (self-governing, self-directing) rather than dependent upon government and the forced imposition of heteronomous decisions. Leftists, for the most part, can hardly conceive that people free to make their own decisions might ever be socially-conscious, much less able to carry out a social revolution in the right situation. (This attitude is exemplified by the infamous Leninist insistence that workers are only capable of \"trade-union consciousness,\" and the corresponding delusion that only the Leninist party can be consistently revolutionary.) In fact, for most socialist and communist leftists (and, unfortunately, also for many left-anarchists) individualism seems to be nothing but a dirty word.\"



This is the \"meaty\" part of this article. It is worth exploring this part of the article. I take it that those conceptions of anarchism that are \"leftist\", let us say anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-communism and the like are what is the object of critique; if we are to be anarchist\'s \"post leftists\" we must articulate those parts of the anarchist movement that are \"leftist\" and demonstrate that they share the same sins as all the other \"leftists\".

Hence the value of this paragraph of the essay. So when Jason says that \"anarchists\" argue that \"free individuals and free communities cannot be coreced into existience\" and then goes on to say that \"leftists argue otherwise\" he is claiming, effectively, that anarcho-syndicalists and anarcho-communists also \"argue otherwise\"; really? Where is the evidence for that? From Rocker? From Kropotkin? I\'d like to know where they argued that free individuals and free communities must be coreced into existience. In fact i\'ll go further, show me where autonomous and libertarian marxists also so argue.

He then goes on to state that \"anarchists contend that individuals and communities should be autonomous (self-governing, self-directing) rather than dependent upon government and the forced imposition of hetetronomous decisions\". There are two points to be made here, one on the claim being made and one on the style i.e. \"forced imposition of heternomous decisions\". Gibberish, albeit profound and understandable gibberish to a specialist TRAINED in the lingo, so much then for \"self-directing\". Now, back to the point. Since when do anarcho-syndicalists/anarcho-communists make the claim that individuals and communities should be \"dependent upon government\"? To be fair to Jason he does go on and states, \"leftists for the most part can hardly conceive that people free to make their own decisions might ever be socially conscious\", in stating this he provides us with an example, \"this attitude is exemplified by the infamous Leninist insistence..\"

Rather than demonstrate that anarcho-syndicalism/anarcho-communism adherents \"can hardly conceive that people free to make their own decisions might ever be socially conscious\" he instead cites Leninism as an example!

He then states, \"in fact, for most socialist and communist leftists (and, unfortunately also for many left-anarchists) individualism seems to be nothing but a dirty word\". Let us take Rocker in \"anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism\", to use as a guide; Rocker states \"in common with liberalism anarchism represents the idea that the happiness and prosperity of the individual must be the standard in all social matters\" (p10). Indeed Paul Thomas in \"Karl Marx and the Anarchists\" presents as a central argument in his defence of Marx against the anarchists (by which he means of course \"left\" anarchists) the argument that anarchists (i.e. \"left\" anarchists) are bourgious individualists...just can\'t win with some people.

comment by guttersnipe
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:32 AM CST
I really tried hard to stay away from this one.

But now I just can\'t help myself from pointing out an obvious fact: the title indicts \"Left-Anarchism,\" but the article doesn\'t fit the title: the entire rant is not about Left-Anarchism, but instead is about the author\'s gripes about perceived misunderstandings, misrepresentations, and general cheap shots at an article he published -- by one single critic.

Why not just call the piece \'The Incredible Lameness Of Staudenmaier\'s Response To My Rant Which Only A Few People Have Read Anyway, And Even Fewer Care About.\" ?

Where is McQuinn\'s explanation of why so-called \"Left-Anarchism\" is \"lame\"?

(And although I abhor P.C., I\'m surprised that nobody has yet suggested that McQuinn\'s rant be re-named \"The Incredible Differently-Abledness of Left-Anarchism.\")
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 12:01 PM CST
I am certainly in favor of organization because you simply cannot do anything without organization of some kind, but the problem with organizaton of the \"pro-organization\" anarchist variety is that their method of organization is pre-determined by their ideology -- and regional and cultural differences, or reality itself, be damned.

Shawn, let start by saying that I have always liked you personally, and respected you politically. However, this is the same tired arguement you would lay down back in the day when the Atlantic Anarchist Circle was falling down around us, and a few of your \"pro-organizational\" AAC comrades (me, Flint, others) decided to go off and form NEFAC...

\"The time wasn\'t right for a federation, we were putting the cart before the horse, the word \"communist\" would scare off any potential members or sympathizers, we were trying to organize around ideology rather than material reality, blah, blah, blah...\"

At the time, I respected your positions even though I disagreed with you. However, a few years on and a whole lot of tested ideas later, I think your positions of the time (and now) were completely off the mark, and offered a fairly two-dimensional critique and analysis of the \"pro-organizational\" position.

What exactly do you mean by methods of organization pre-determined by ideology? Personally, I can\'t ever once remember pariticipating in a workplace or community struggle and insist to fellow participants that we immediately abolish all market relations, commodity exchange and the wage system and immediately set up a system of workers\' councils and neighborhood assemblies. Yet, I think I still have found ways to organize and fight within a generally consistent anarcho-communist framework.

I don\'t at all think it is a bad thing to have a generally accepted strategic and tactical line among the anarchists you work closely with. However, I think such a line evolves through practice and conditions, and I have been apart of groups, projects and struggles where I have seen, firsthand, the organic process of this evolution.

I have always maintained that theory doesn\'t mean shit until it is applied to practice. That\'s why I don\'t give a shit about post-leftists or post-anarchists or whichever egghead theories become trendy among the college-anarchists this week. Whenever someone says they are engaging in \"critical theory\" my eyes roll, because I believe the only true critic worth paying attention to is actual practice. In my experience, most \"pro-organizational\" anarchists feel more or less the same way, so I don\'t exactly understand where your criticism is directed.

As for \"ignoring regional and cultural differences\" well, again, I think practice speaks for itself. NEFAC is a bi-lingual, bi-cultural federation. I certainly don\'t remember the AAC or Love & Rage ever making much of an effort to link up with the large French-speaking anarchist movement in our region. And, unlike Love & Rage, where a few token members in Mexico constituted a section, nearly half of our membership is from Canada, and at least a third speaks French as a first language. Although far from perfect, I think we have been quite successful at over-coming language and cultural barriers, and incorporating some of the best from recent US/Canadian/Quebec anarchist traditions, as well as political traditions from the English and French speaking countries around the world and effectively applying our practical activity to local conditions.

Anyways, sometime soon NEFAC will be publishing an federation activity report from the past six months or so. I think it will more than adequately address your past and present criticisms of \"pro-organizational anarchists\".
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 08:19 AM CST
I think at the very least the post-left critique would condemn the Fascist nostalgia for collectivism (per From Politics to Life).

A merger with some elements of materialism would probably create an effective essay.

-Sk!
comment by Magic Missile
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 08:38 AM CST
when I saw \"lameness\" I thought I was fragging on a counter-strike server.

what the hell does \"heternomous\" mean?

all the post-x\'ers, primitivists and egoists (loose the \"individualism\" label, egoism is much more accurate) are getting this ammuntion because we anarchist communists are gonna have large scale production after the revolution. they hate all that is \"big\" because they hate all that is out of their ego\'s reach.

I say that egoists are only leninists who don\'t have an army of followers at their disposal.

A smart egoist dominates people around him (leninist) while a failed egoist sits around and whines until he can have power afain (today\'s so-called \"individualists of anarchism\").

It\'s just different appearance of the same phenomenon. Both authoritarian.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 09:05 AM CST
[b]ChuckO wrote:[/b] [i]Yes, but it\'s still important to address the actual views of people and not their associations. [/i]

Yeah, the title does go against this statement. The title probably should of been an attack against Staudenmaier specifically. Staudenmaier is a champion of social ecology/libertarian muncipalism/communalism? Or is he still an anarchist? I don\'t think he identified his orientation in the discussion, nor does it seem many from the Institute of Social Ecology do since Bookchin decided not to be an anarchist.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 09:46 AM CST
Actually the above essay is mostly an attack against Staudenmaier\'s arguments. Our discussion should be about those arguments, not the manner in which Jason McQuinn makes them.
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 12:38 PM CST
Comment deleted. (political correctness)
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 02:59 PM CST
Flamebait deleted.
comment by ishi
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 01:50 PM CST

jason neglects to mention that in the chart he references \'black anarchism\' is referenced under black socialism, and libertarian marxism with chomsky cited as a representative cited under democratic marxism (inclkuding council communism which i gather includes the sits).

postleftism seems to be like postmodernism, of which there are 2 kinds.

one extreme form rejects all modernism (with its \'enlightenment\' concepts like belief in rationality, progress, time, objectivity, or anything beyond the \'similcrum\' of language. Derrida in his early phase played this social role---its a job. i am not sure he deconstructed his paycheck or ivorty tower---i kinduh dought it. one is free to choose which images one frolics in, as free constructions. so \'dont touch my paycheck\' is one common refrain in this form of post-ism, but YOU reject everything since i say so. ))

some \'postleftist anarchists\' seem to be of this form (eg wolfi) rejecting everything (anarchists must abolish all social relationships involving standard categories mediated by identities (we cant be races, sexes, or nationalities; and we can\'t use common definitions of language since these conventions are similar to a \'dress code\' or \'race code\' which limit our freedom of association. we cant tell the difference betwen a $1 and a $10.).

here post means a decisive rejection. nziethe also promoted this as he died from syphilis.

the 2nd \'reformist\' postmoodern form accepts some of the old ideas; here they just criticize aspects of modernism which are totalizing. S J Gould did this in evolutionary theory----he said it is evolving, but not neccesartily getting better. in some ways people are more enlightened, in others they arent, so who is to say.
Derrida in his late phase adopts this (he is for \'justice\' which, i guess like God hisself, is the only thing which is beyond deconstruction into a mirage) and he thinks we shouild work for that using common conceptions of what that might be. (eg everyone works for me, or some other possibility that we decide by consensus, as I did when i asked my consience what we as a multiplicity if not a multitude believe. \'we as anarchists believe...\'. since i am not myself, then we have a consensus of many which should be representative of Us and our search for Just us.).

this version of postleft anarchism seems to be more common today. everyone is an anarcho commie, as the pc ethos. of course, we must respect personal autonomy, such as individualistic rights, such as keeping the rabble off my estates which i use to rejuvenate myself as is my right. dont expect me to show up to a meeting, though i may send my servant to take notes. (see that lil angel flitting around? or is it a rabid bat like count dracula? dont worry, be happy).

(and although we reject electoralism because the FAQ says it doesn\'t work, when we are off work, we still can vote, or like me, buy the election so certain undesirables try to take the minerals under my land using some sort of \'eminent domain\' law which i will repeal and then use to tie them up in legal challenges until they are in the nursing home and still fighting buried under court challenges.
while this \'doesnt work\' nobody who is smart does, right? i guess direct action may work better, so perhaps someone could post an ELF/EF phone number so they can come and do a little mutual aid here on the estates--you know, keep the rabble off my minerals. if they wont do it we will have to call the cops.)

in this case postleftism seems more or less a rejection of \'stalinism\' (which most people who nowadays identify themselves as \'on the left\' dont identify with, ever since the \'new left\' ) combined with the FAQ synthesis of the anarchist critique of change via democratic socialism.


i think \'disarm authority\' is a better take, and the only issues are how to define \'alienation\' and the difference between false and true opposition, and neither of these questioms can be decided really. it doesnt seem to take any position on \'what works\'. so do what you want.

i would also say that as long as the FAQ bases its take on where the \'authoritarian personality\' derives from (since believe it or not God did not create the State) on Wilhelm Reich, it is not anywhere near complete.
saying Reich is an authority is like saying stalin or lenin are the authorities on communism.

does it matter? it shows the poverty of anarchst theory. one might as well just use the pony express if the debate is going to be using terms of that period, instead of uysing email. (the way Christians use email to promote 2000 year old theorlogy. what a total waste).

as for \'Peter S\' one can look at the convoluted debates on the difference between parecon and bookchin to see that apparently like most of the world and USA people seem to prefer having debates about almost nothing. its theology.
while influcenced by the \'post\' critique to be skeptical of any existance of more \'enlightened\' discussions i would say i place my bets outside of the anarchist milieu for them. politically i hedge my bets. its too bad you have to do this whole \'marriage here\' and \'sex there\' kinduh thing (ideology here, talk there) but either this is due to the structure of society now, or because actually thats the way humans do things.

comment by Magic Missile
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 02:35 PM CST
I\'m talking about that kid in class who would be (rightfully) frustrated about the teacher\'s authority and who would take it out on his classmates through a number of anti-social acts (steal stuff, beat kids, etc.) while still looking hip and cool. These kids would collaborate with the same authority they\'re so pissed at when there is something in it for them at the first opportunity.

The kid looks like a revolutionary at first, but soon it is revealed that not only does he hate the teacher, he hates everything but himself. It follows that from now on he will do everything only to benefit himself. By coincidence(!) the system offers plenty options for the self-seeking egoist, as this is the system of self-seeking egoists (capitalists). Soon the reject kid learns the rules of the game and plays by them. After all, he is now among his likes. The capitalists are only egoists who\'ve been playing the game smarter than him, no need for much frustration when you know what you\'re doing.

Feel free to interpret the analogy.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 04:11 PM CST
Sorry, MaRK, but this doesn\'t cut it as an example of practice. Any organization can do this and this is about the organization, not what the members of the organization are doing out in the real world. This butresses my criticisms of people who form federations and anarchist organizations for the sake of creating organizations because \"it is the thing to do.\"

The \"anti-organizational critique\" is little more than empty, often uninformed, banter from the sidelines as far as I am concerned.

People form federations to provide a sustainable framework to share experiences and resources; utilize collective skills and knowledge; challenge one and other politically, tactically and strategically; and maximize the the overall impact of our ideas and activity in larger social movements. Informal networks rarely, if ever, provide any of these important things in a satisfactory way.

Exactly which federations exist for the sake of perpetuating their own existence? Besides NEFAC, I have a fairly good working knowledge of other federations and the activity they are engaged in all over the world. In some instances I have visited other countries and seen this activity firsthand, in others I have good correspondance with participants. Can\'t say I\'ve seen much of a base in the real world for your claims here.

Or to promote themselves, which is the thing I find the most annoying about NEFAC.

I personally think more anarchists should promote their activity, and others should certainly offer their own critiques and counter-points so there is more hands-on sharing of experiences within movement discourse. Who knows, maybe someday we might actually develop some serious praxis in the anarchist movement and become a real revolutionary threat to the powers that be... or else we can waste our time wanking about \'post-this\' and \'post-that\' theories with no practical application in the real world beyond useless acadaemia.

In fact, I\'m movign right now from a position of support for NEFAC to a more hostile stance.

And this affects our work how? What real, material support have you ever given to NEFAC? Defend us to your post-left drinking buddies once in awhile?


NEFAC members seem to do a good job of promoting the organization, but I see very little practical activity coming out of this organization, although I know that NEFAC members ARE doing practical work.

Practical activity? What are you talking about? Do you even read anything that comes out of NEFAC? The near entirety of the last issue of \'The Northeastern Anarchist\' was one essay after another discussing, analyzing, and critiquing our activity around labor struggles (trade union organizing, flying squads, labor solidarity, workers\' centers, etc.). Go to our website, there is always shit about struggles people from NEFAC are involved with: anti-fascist, housing, immigration, anti-poverty reproductive rights, etc.

All of this activity is reinforced by the federation as a whole. Often federal resources are shared to assist locals with their work (such as the thousands of three-color posters for campaign against the neo-liberal cuts by the Charest government in Quebec). Expereinces are shared. Sometimes we actually send people from different localities to help people with activity elsewhere (when the Boston Angry Tenants Union was about to start a door-knocking campaign, someone more experienced from Baltimore NEFAC came up and did a training). We challenge each other on how best to get involved with these struggles and popularize anarchist ideas and methods of organization.

Fuck, I can deal with people who want to have political debates about platformism or whether or not working in trade unions is counter-productive or whatever, but I am not going to sit here and listen to total bullshit about how NEFAC doesn\'t do anything but promote itself.

It just seems these days that NEFAC is turning more sectarian and more oriented to its self-perpetuation than it is in inspiring anarchists to get out there and do something.

I\'m sorry Chuck, what more could we be doing in your opinion? I think we do a hell of a lot more than most anarchists, and actually build something tangible from our activity. If this is not good enough for you, well, I don\'t know what to tell you.

Sectarian or not, I for one have little patience for most anarchists these days, especially ones that spout off total bullshit like this.

Does this mean that you don\'t read Northeastern Anarchist, which is billed as a theoretical magazine?

I don\'t have a problem with theory, just theory divorced from practice. Most of what we publish has both a theoretical side and a corresponding practice, and often some critical analysis thrown in for good measure.

I wasn\'t aware that Infoshop wasn\'t getting copies. I don\'t really deal with alot of the distribution end of the magazine. I\'ll make it a point to drop some copies in the mail for you sometime this week.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 03:18 PM CST
As for \"ignoring regional and cultural differences\" well, again, I think practice speaks for itself. NEFAC is a bi-lingual, bi-cultural federation.

Sorry, MaRK, but this doesn\'t cut it as an example of practice. Any organization can do this and this is about the organization, not what the members of the organization are doing out in the real world. This butresses my criticisms of people who form federations and anarchist organizations for the sake of creating organizations because \"it is the thing to do.\" This is where my anti-organizational critique hits the floor and gathers speed. I\'m not against federations or organizations, but I\'m certainly against ones that exist just to perpetuate themselves.

Or to promote themselves, which is the thing I find the most annoying about NEFAC. In fact, I\'m movign right now from a position of support for NEFAC to a more hostile stance. NEFAC members seem to do a good job of promoting the organization, but I see very little practical activity coming out of this organization, although I know that NEFAC members ARE doing practical work. It just seems these days that NEFAC is turning more sectarian and more oriented to its self-perpetuation than it is in inspiring anarchists to get out there and do something. If NEFAC is such a good idea, let\'s see some evidence of why it is a good idea.

That\'s why I don\'t give a shit about post-leftists or post-anarchists or whichever egghead theories become trendy among the college-anarchists this week. Whenever someone says they are engaging in \"critical theory\" my eyes roll, because I believe the only true critic worth paying attention to is actual practice.

Does this mean that you don\'t read Northeastern Anarchist, which is billed as a theoretical magazine? ;-)

And why aren\'t you guys sending Infoshop copies of the mag?
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 04:25 PM CST
One thing I like about NEFAC is we call each other on our shit, intentional or not. Alot of us grew up working class where alot of language, particularly expletives, are often sexist, homophobic, ableist, racist, etc...

This happens at rallies in the heat of the moment, in informal discussion, in the contents of our print publiations, etc...

\"Lame\" is an abelist term. Jason obviously thinks of himself as an accomplished wordsmith, so hopefully in the future he can come up with a adjective that is both more descriptive, and less discriminatory.

What would be the reaction of Jason titled his article, \"The stupid bitching of left-anarchism\"?

Maybe this is all just political correctness for you, but for others it\'s about respecting others.

MaRK got called out for calling something \"lame\" about a week ago on NEFAC\'s informal chat email list. When that mistake was pointed out to him, he acknowledged it, apologized, and moved on... to the point where he is now more aware when other folks (and hopefully himself) do the same thing.

Sure, something small like this doesn\'t change the world... but it definately makes it easier for diverse people to work together where they don\'t feel as vunerable to the many oppressions that continue to pushed upon and particed by elements of our class.
comment by Shawn
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 04:45 PM CST
Hi Mark,

Let me also start by saying that I feel the same both personally and politcally about you.

I also understand that whenever there is any mention of pro-organization anarchism in a critical light, especially on infoshop, it is ultimately, more often than not, a covert or overt dig at NEFAC. However, I have absolutely no problem with NEFAC as an federation of anarcho-communists with specific goals and purposes, and I respect many people who are members of NEFAC, including yourself, immensely. My comments were not in any way directed towards NEFAC, they were intended to address the larger problem of how we are to go about creating an anarchist world. But let me get to this in a minute.

Let me also add that, over the years, my opinions have not remained static--you may disagree with this given that you think I am offering the same arguments here that I made almost five years ago--I do in fact change my mind when provided with new information and will say so publicly.

At the time when I participated in the ACC, I had just moved to the east coast and had no knowledge of how the ACC really operated at the \"home office\" in NYC. The ACC was a completely disorganized mess, and I don\'t think I would have argued against that point even then. As I\'m sure you remember, Lyn and I helped organize an ACC gathering that year (1999) and not long after that it became rapidly clear that the ACC was a dead group that didn\'t know enough to just lay down. It was nothing more than a mailing list whose subscibers would send money to pay the rent on an office that was basically a hang out for a handful of NYC anarchists. It was dead before we (Lyn and I) even found it and our gathering was to the ACC what a brief remission is to a terminal cancer patient.

I think that my opposition to your suggestions and the suggestions of others was bacause you wanted to apply the ideas that would eventually result in the formation of NEFAC to the ACC, please correct me if I\'m wrong. I did also make those same criticisms when you were forming NEFAC, but I think I have said that I was wrong about that before, and if I haven\'t, let me say it now. I do think that I was right about arguing against a fed structure for the ACC, if only because it would have amounted to flogging a dead horse, but also because it never would have worked for the ACC--I\'d be surprised if you disagreed with that in retrospect.

Regarding the arguemnt that pro-organization anarchists invariably subscribe to methods of organization that are predertermined by their ideology, is it not true that an anrcho-communist would like to build a world that is fundamentally communist, or a syndicalist would like to build a world that is fundametally syndicalist, in its organization and operation? Would you disagree?

The problem with that is I don\'t really believe that communism or syndicalism are universally applicable and the great majority of communists and syndicalists believe it is.

I would really love for anarchist to be seriously thinking about things like: how to we keep the sewers and water supply functioning, how do we maintain a system of garbage and recycling collection, how do we organize a system of goods and services distribution under anarchism? Is there really a best way and is collectivism or syndicalism even in the running for the \"best way\" to do something, or are there other ways? Does it really make sense for us to automatically assume that a subway system would be organized as a syndic or a collectivist enterprise, or is it possible that the subway workers might devise some other way of organizing that resembles neither of those methods, yet is still egalitarian and anarchist in nature? What is OBJECTIVELY the most effective way for an anarchist society to defend itself militarily? How would anarchist military units organize themsevle? How would individual units coordinate attacks and defenses as a large force?

It\'s questions like these that are prevented from being seriously explored when you already have a pat answer provided for you by whatever ideology you subscribe to. And this is where my criticisms of those who self-identify as pro-organization comes from.

I could go on, and I can elaborate futher, but I really don\'t think that this is the most constructive forum to do it in--maybe I\'ll actually sit down and write an essay someday.

I\'m not in top form at the moment, but I did want to attempt to address your criticisms and concerns and give them at least some of the attention that they deserve.

Solid,
Shawn
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 04:52 PM CST
Actually, the irony of ironies is that it was Mick (Mr. PC Himself... ha, ha!) who accused me of being \"lame\" for something I said.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:06 PM CST
Hey Shawn, thanks for the response. Hope your doing well since I saw you last.

I think that my opposition to your suggestions and the suggestions of others was bacause you wanted to apply the ideas that would eventually result in the formation of NEFAC to the ACC, please correct me if I\'m wrong.

Well, at the time, I was only looking for half-measures for the ACC. A little more accountability and strategic focus really. I think it was probably the level of resistance I got from what I thought to be incredibly sensible suggestions that turned me into the rabid platformist I am today. Ha, ha...

No, you\'re absolutely right here. Which is why it become clear that a seperate organization needed to be formed, with a clear organizational framework from the beginning. Since many current NEFAC members were active anarchists at that time but had no affiliation with the AAC, I think it is safe to say that we have provided an important niche for the anarchist movement in this region.

I don\'t necessarily disagree with alot of what you say in the rest of this comment. Obviously nothing is written in stone. However, I truly do believe that, short of full communism, capitalism will recuperate any half-steps taken during revolutionary struggles. Not to say the full communism would always be immediately applicable to all economic situations, but I do think it is something we would need to strive for. However, with that said, we are a longway from there, and in the meantime I think immediate issues of strategies and tactics for anarchists take precedence over future revolutionary theory.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:09 PM CST
The \"anti-organizational critique\" is little more than empty, often uninformed, banter from the sidelines as far as I am concerned.

So you are uninterested in looking at your own organization critically? If people stopped belonging to NEFAC, you wouldn\'t care? I take it that you have no interest in discussions about which strategies the anarchist movement should be using? These are all examples of where an anti-organizational critique is useful.

People form federations to provide a sustainable framework to share experiences and resources; utilize collective skills and knowledge; challenge one and other politically, tactically and strategically; and maximize the the overall impact of our ideas and activity in larger social movements.

In other words, federations are formed by people with the same ideas so they can have one big circle jerk? I think that many people form federations for ideological reasons. They think that federations are the answer to the question: how do we create an anarchist world? They form federations and join them because some anarchist told them that this is the way to organize. There is very little self-criticism or self-reflection.

Informal networks rarely, if ever, provide any of these important things in a satisfactory way.

Well, that certainly isn\'t the case. The networkers already disproved that assertion by building up the North American anarchist movement via networked decentralism. I really ought to dig out that bar bet that Dave Neal and I made with Andrew Flood. Andrew owes us on that bet.

Exactly which federations exist for the sake of perpetuating their own existence?

NEFAC is certainly moving in that direction. You do very little in the are of practical activity. NEFAC has turned into a big social club whose main activities seem to be bashing other anarchists and making jokes about beer drinking. Every example that you have given about why NEFAC works revolves around the organization as an organization. What kind of practical activities are you doing that are relevant to the interests of your members?

Besides NEFAC, I have a fairly good working knowledge of other federations and the activity they are engaged in all over the world. In some instances I have visited other countries and seen this activity firsthand, in others I have good correspondance with participants. Can\'t say I\'ve seen much of a base in the real world for your claims here.

I see an American anarchist movement that is much bigger than it was ten or twenty years ago. I attribute that fact to my work and the work of many other anarchists who aren\'t members of explicitly anarchist organizations. In fact, over 95% of American anarchists are not involved in explictly anarchist organizations such as NEFAC.

You know, I have no problem with people organizing through NEFAC, but I get really angry when people associated with \"organizational\" anarchism diss the work and achievements of anarchists who prefer to organize differently, such as myself.

I personally think more anarchists should promote their activity, and others should certainly offer their own critiques and counter-points so there is more hands-on sharing of experiences within movement discourse. Who knows, maybe someday we might actually develop some serious praxis in the anarchist movement and become a real revolutionary threat to the powers that be... or else we can waste our time wanking about \'post-this\' and \'post-that\' theories with no practical application in the real world beyond useless acadaemia.

Or wasting our time wanking off about federations or platformism or whatever.

There is nothing wrong with promoting your group--I\'ve done what I can to promote and feature NEFAC--but could you all just turn down the self-congratulatory attitude down a notch? Kudos to NEFAC for doing what it has accomplished, but let\'s not forget that it is a tiny part of the North American anarchist movement.

You guys ought to hear what former NEFAC members say about NEFAC. Evidently you all could use a good dose of anti-organizational attitude right now. ;-)

In fact, I\'m movign right now from a position of support for NEFAC to a more hostile stance.

And this affects our work how? What real, material support have you ever given to NEFAC? Defend us to your post-left drinking buddies once in awhile?

How about if I remove Infoshop links to NEFAC and cease any promotion of your activities? Since I don\'t provide any real material support, this shouldn\'t be missed by NEFAC.

Practical activity? What are you talking about? Do you even read anything that comes out of NEFAC?

No, not very often. That last article on \"flying squads\" in unions looked interesting. I skimmed a bit of that. But more importantly, what kind of press are you getting? Boston Indymedia? Boston Globe? Boston City paper?

At least you all do a good job of promoting yourself in anarchist and activist media, which is not something that can be said about the IWW, which seems to have dropped off the face of the map.

The near entirety of the last issue of \'The Northeastern Anarchist\' was one essay after another discussing, analyzing, and critiquing our activity around labor struggles (trade union organizing, flying squads, labor solidarity, workers\' centers, etc.). Go to our website, there is always shit about struggles people from NEFAC are involved with: anti-fascist, housing, immigration, anti-poverty reproductive rights, etc.

Ahh, now you are getting somewhere! When you first answered my question about practical activity, you went off about internal NEFAC business. Now you are pointing out that NEFAC IS engaged in practical work, activism and agitation. In my experience, most explicitly anarchist organizations wouldn\'t be able to answer that question with examples of practical activity. This is WHY I am an anti-organizationalist deep down inside, because I\'ve witnessed too many anarchists who organized an anarchist group, only to discover that nobody wanted to join it. People don\'t join groups because they love meetings or membership fees, they do it out of self-interest or some motivation about working to help others.

All of this activity is reinforced by the federation as a whole. Often federal resources are shared to assist locals with their work (such as the thousands of three-color posters for campaign against the neo-liberal cuts by the Charest government in Quebec). Expereinces are shared. Sometimes we actually send people from different localities to help people with activity elsewhere (when the Boston Angry Tenants Union was about to start a door-knocking campaign, someone more experienced from Baltimore NEFAC came up and did a training). We challenge each other on how best to get involved with these struggles and popularize anarchist ideas and methods of organization.

Yes, this is all great stuff. You are now engaged in critical thinking about your organization, albeit of the rah rah variety. You see, not all anarchists see that NEFAC is doing this, nor do they understand that NEFAC has stuck around because it isn\'t just an org for the sake of organization.

Fuck, I can deal with people who want to have political debates about platformism or whether or not working in trade unions is counter-productive or whatever, but I am not going to sit here and listen to total bullshit about how NEFAC doesn\'t do anything but promote itself.

Well, I know that NEFAC does lots of stuff, but I\'m sharing with you what my impression is these days of your public face. NEFAC is developing an annoying case of hubris, at least on this forum.

I\'m sorry Chuck, what more could we be doing in your opinion? I think we do a hell of a lot more than most anarchists, and actually build something tangible from our activity. If this is not good enough for you, well, I don\'t know what to tell you.

You shouldn\'t feel defensive about what NEFAC has accomplished. You folks do some good stuff and it is important to have you around. But I think you all should look at yourself from the perspective of other anarchists. You say that \"we do a hell of a lot more than most anarchists, and actually build something tangible from our activity.\" That demonstrates an incredible amount of disrespect towards most anarchists, who aren\'t in NEFAC are are every bit as busy as NEFAC members are. Respect is a two way street. If you want anarchists (and other folks) to respect NEFAC, you should demonstrate more respect and tolerance for what other people are doing. Not all of us want to organize in federations, but we respect your desire to organize that way.

Sectarian or not, I for one have little patience for most anarchists these days, especially ones that spout off total bullshit like this.

You sound like me today. Perhaps we should call up Flint and go get a pitcher of Natty Bo. ;-)

Does this mean that you don\'t read Northeastern Anarchist, which is billed as a theoretical magazine?

Only a few of the articles posted here. Nobody sends me copies, even for review, and it\'s not like I have the income to travel and slums around anarchist bookstores that carry the magazine. And now I\'m in Kansas City where we are a few months away from opening an infoshop.

By the way, last year when we were drafting up a list of zines to carry at the Brian MacKenzie Center, I put Northeastern Anarchist at the top fo the list.

I wasn\'t aware that Infoshop wasn\'t getting copies. I don\'t really deal with alot of the distribution end of the magazine. I\'ll make it a point to drop some copies in the mail for you sometime this week.

We don\'t get much from any of the anarchist magazines. Even APR wasn\'t getting anarchist titles on a regular basis, which I think shows that anarchists need to pay more attention to distro. And I don\'t understand why a big anarchist movement resource like Infoshop.org isn\'t on the comp list of every anarchist title being published. ;-)
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:12 PM CST
I actually think NEFAC is bad at self-promotion. NEFAC\'s english zine doesn\'t have a glossy cover (AJODA does), it\'s print run is very modest (about 1/5th of AJDODA\'s), NEFAC doesn\'t have much in the way of merchandise... not any pamphlets, not any books (AJODA does), not any t-shirts (like crimethinc or AJODA), or patches, etc... NEFACers are even bad about selling the magazine... a few comrades criticize many others for not street-selling the magazine, and also point out the lack of an agitational newspaper in English. NEFAC often gets oppurtunities to speak about NEFAC at different events (like the upcoming National Conference on Organized Resistance)... but often times has to decline for a lack of time or interest (having someone who is both willing to speak, and able to make it to the event). NEFAC isn\'t nearly ambitous enough with the few poster campaigns it\'s engaged in (something that crimethinc is very good at). There are often times I\'ve seen NEFAC members involved in some action or the other, where you wouldn\'t even know NEFAC was involved unless you knew the affiliations of the participants. NEFAC is also very bad about recruitment and regularly interested folks fall through the cracks. NEFAC doesn\'t maintain an office, a phone number, or even have much in the way of regularly publicized meetings (though there is the occasional local event, or speaking tour).

Frankly, NEFAC does a horrible job of self-promotion.

But, I did like that the last issue of NEA focused on ideas coming directly from folks personal experiences with work struggles (strikes, workers centers, flying squads, etc...). Infact just yesterday, some comrades were discussing the low wages projectionists are getting at a local theater, and I was quite happy to pull out the latest NEA and point out what the pissed off projectionists were able to accomplish. Look, here are some other folks who had the same problem as you, and look what they did about it! A whole lot more useful to me than the latest issue of AJODA, which I admit to reading cause a preverse point of my brain actually finds some humor in the animosity and flames that fill its pages. I\'m not going to be pulling out AJODA as a reference to someone who is interested in fighting back on their job, or interested in what this anarchy stuff is.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:20 PM CST
Personally, all this PC shit is incredibly lame. One of the main things that has driven me out of participation in activist and anarchist groups is the irrational level of political correctness and authoritarian policing of activist behavior that goes on. I\'m not even talking about serious issues that plague groups, but the oppressive atmosphere that permeates groups when individuals are allowed to disrupt a group when they think they have a right to derail a meeting to bully somebody over something they said. This stuff is just not fucking important enough to make it the center fo some damn meeting. If you have problems with the language, go talk to the person outside. If you have problems\' with Jason McQuinn\'s choice of words, send him a motherfucking e-mail. He\'s been involved in activist movements for over twenty years, it\'s not like he doesn\'t know about what people think about certain words. I\'ve been using fucking non-oppressive langauge for most of my fucking life--as any one of my friends will confirm--but do we have to make a fucking Federal Case out of the use of every damn word, especially the one above that wasn\'t used to demean or put down diabled people?

Do those of you who want to make a Federal Case out of this EVER go out and talk to non-activists? Do you spend all of your time confronting them about their choice of words? I suspected that you didn\'t, because if you talked with normal people you\'d know that they talk a steady stream of shit that would offend the paragons of PC in activist circles. Get a sense of perspective before you waste everybody\'s time here.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:21 PM CST
Frankly, NEFAC does a horrible job of self-promotion.

Except on Infoshop News. ;-)
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:22 PM CST
My apologies. And, generally speaking, I think in NEFAC it\'s the language that\'s criticized... not the individual that used it.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:31 PM CST
AAC, guys, AAC. Atlantic Anarchist Circle.

In retrospect, I think that the AAA was a moderate success given the climate for anarchism at that time in the region. It set out to network anarchists in the region and it accomplished that. It held several decent conferences, published a sporadic newspaper, held some trainings, ran a regional e-mail list, and managed to establish an office towards the end. If anything, the AAC was quietly abandoned when things took off for anarchism around the country in the lead up to Seattle. I was in DC at the time and the growing anarchist scene there, and my online activism, drew my attention away from the AAC. I suspect that the situation was the same for many other AAC activists.

MaRK, the AAC did NOT need more organizational framework. I sat through enough of the AAC\'s organizational meetings to know that it had plenty of organization. What it really needed were more practical projects to organize around, such as more regional speaking tours. The AAC was making an effort to organize a speaker\'s bureau, which I thought could have really helped anarchism in the region at that time.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:36 PM CST
You guys ought to hear what former NEFAC members say about NEFAC. Evidently you all could use a good dose of anti-organizational attitude right now.

Well, there are more than a few disgruntled former NEFAC members floating around out there. Some expelled for good reasons (violence, sexism, Maoism), others leaving on their own accord over personal beefs or political differences, some just quietly dropping out due to family or work constraints. A handful of people left on a somewhat bad note fairly recently, for, among other things, the fact that they felt we were not platformist enough!

I am sure everyone has their own takes on whatever the particular circumstances of their departure may have been. I definitely think NEFAC should be criticized for how certain situations were handled. We\'re all human and make mistakes. Live and learn I suppose...
comment by censored anarcho-commie
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:44 PM CST
I think what MaRK is saying is that the anti-organizational critique isn\'t useful in being critical of NEFAC. He wasn\'t saing self-criticism isn\'t an important thing for NEFAC. I\'m not a member so I obviously won\'t speak for them, but I think the idea that you need to be an anti-organizaitonalist to critique an organization is pretty ridiculous.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 05:48 PM CST
What it really needed were more practical projects to organize around, such as more regional speaking tours. The AAC was making an effort to organize a speaker\'s bureau, which I thought could have really helped anarchism in the region at that time.

Unfortunately there didn\'t seem to be the necessary organizational framework to pull off nice projects like a speakers bureau, so it didn\'t happen.

In order to pull something like this off, in my opinion you would need the follow:

1) Solid and dependable local contacts to organize stops, do promotion, put up speakers, etc.

2) Resources to pay for the tour (transportation, posters, food)

Obviously you can cut corners now and again, organize a speaking tour on the cuff with money raised through a benefit or something and stops coordinated through random folks who offer to help you out.

But if you want a sustainable speakers bureau, and not some one-off tour, I think you are going to need a little bit more organizational framework to pull it off (accountable locals, dues, etc.). But that\'s just me...


comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 06:52 PM CST
1) Solid and dependable local contacts to organize stops, do promotion, put up speakers, etc.

We had that, but even a bigger organization would have to create new contacts and take some risks by organizing stops on the tour without local contacts.

2) Resources to pay for the tour (transportation, posters, food)

This could have been done easily. This stuff usually falls in place once you\'ve got a tour set up.

But if you want a sustainable speakers bureau, and not some one-off tour, I think you are going to need a little bit more organizational framework to pull it off (accountable locals, dues, etc.). But that\'s just me...

Well, we had that. We had a network, we had contacts, we had some money, and we even had the beginnings of an office. What we didn\'t have was speakers. Which is similar to the problem we have here on Infoshop with writers. The organizatonal stuff is all here, but we need some people to step forward and volunteer their talents.
comment by ACE
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 10:08 PM CST
in most anarchist circles ive found
alot of the same permiating problems
critized as \"leftist\" yet never quite
embraced as a totality of any sort of group
organized around theroy/practice....
this realization alone should embrace
all @ists with brothers and sisters
seriously invovled in such a leftist flavor
and let them come and go with
the stereo typing and finger pointing
before they realize their silly
statist ways and offer them selves
to us as the people they always wanted to be
the left is a massive potential
and at times the only reasonable place
to introduce anarchism as something
worth working for,this also take toleration
and deeper sensibilities-
for example,imagine the pacifist ideal
outside of an anarchist context-
isnt it often more important to embrace
totalities,even wayward communists?
forward,backward,side to side!!!!!
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, January 05 2004 @ 10:48 PM CST
I agree with ChuckO, all your bitching is lame :)

All you club-footed women better cry yourself to sleep, cause ChuckO don\'t give a FuckO.

The one thing I really don\'t like about the left is the language nazis. As Flint said, some of us come from working class backgrounds, but we shouldn\'t reject our culture for that of the liberal activist. Maybe we should instead be post-culture (or post-morality), develop beyond the false dichotomy of language barriers. I remember I got in trouble when I was 4. I got attacked by the neighborhood bully, who pulled a knife on me, so I wrestled the knife out of his hand and pinned him to the ground and called him a son of a bitch. My sister told on me and I got in trouble. Since then, I haven\'t had much use for people that want to regulate my language without considering that context, such as expressions or cultural phrases, such as calling someone a bastard. Hardly anyone gets offended being called a bastard, even bastards (most my friends are bastards). And in this case, \'lame\', and I\'ve been called on \'bitch\' \'mongoloid\' and other phrases that didn\'t have the context of oppression with it. You\'ve got to have some serious emotional problems if you get offended, and I see little point giving into a lefty-liberal bourgeois culture I have little respect for. If we must look at paradigms of oppression, lets look beyond the verbal towards more root causes of domination that demand people change to have a revolution. Have a social intolerance of domination can be healthy, having a social intolerance to other people\'s use of language can be counterproductive. If you are really wanting to challenge someone on what they say, think about what you\'ve done that makes you such a proponent of enforcing the pc-culture on people. Have you done anything other than calling people on their language that can be said to of helped a specific people? I find that this enforcement of language use is activism of the worst sort, thinking that by calling people out that you create a climate of safety, when rather you create a climate of distrust and exclusiveness. You can\'t change the masses through language activism.

Protecting the movement from sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, ageism, etc is perfectly acceptable, but must it have a priority centered on language use? Can\'t defending the movement from these elements be done in another manner, and if so, shouldn\'t it have a higher priority than language itself? If not, should it have more openness to context than what is being done currently?

Anyways, I stand by my silliness and my rambling.
comment by TheLaughingMan
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 06 2004 @ 12:46 AM CST
WOW who else thinks these entire page should be put in the anarchist FAQ?
comment by SpeedyJ
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 06 2004 @ 10:40 AM CST

the title \"The incredible lameness of left-anarchism\" is just stupid & not worthy of defense - it is not some expression of critical or poetic insight that needs to be preserved for the enlightenment & edification of future generations - talk about needing perspective...

sitting here in a wheelchair i can tell you that yes, it is fucking offensive to constantly hear people using such terms as \"lame\" to describe things they think are weak, worthless, or otherwise screwed up - used to be, when i was young, that things now described as \"lame\" were called \"gay\" - why not anymore? because queers stood up for themselves & told us all to shut up & deal - if you can\'t see the parallel here, especially if you\'ve been \"using non-oppressive language for most of your life\" then you\'re just being willfully ignorant, not to mention callous - yes, you insult me & i\'ll get pissed off - why not just call it \"left-anarchism is for pygmy brained idiots\" or \"left-anarchism is
for pussies\"? or better yet, \"left-anarchism is for retards\" - lotsa giggles there, right?

& don\'t give me this \"it\'s part of my working-class\" culture crap - you think that the working class is the only ones who use abusive & oppressive language? i\'m fucking working class & my parents made sure i didn\'t think that terms like k*ke, n*gger, b*tch & other insults were acceptable - not all of us in the working
class are or were raised to be insensitive bigots, even those of us with tattle-tale sisters

it is highly ironic to have some of you be so dismissive of people critiquing the use of the term \"lame\" as insignificant & just a \"damn word\" when the whole thrust of this article seems to be about people needing to appreciate the earth-shaking importance of a new adjectival term for anarchist theory - again, perspective would be great right about now...

lastly, it is pathetic to see supposedly committed anti-oppression activists fall into the PC labelling game - the term PC was invented by right-wing assholes to try & dismiss challenges to their straight white male authority made by women, people of color & other oppressed groups - yeah, some people go overboard, but stop whining so much - no one is \"oppressing\" you when they call you on your bullshit - get over it & grow up - the whole point is to take a walk in someone else\'s shoes for while... or a ride in their chair, as the case may be - language determines the limits of our thought & behavior in so many ways - don\'t try & brush it off as \"just words\"

apologies in advance if this is all a waste of your precious time....
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 06 2004 @ 12:49 PM CST
An important correction: the term \"political correctness\" was invented by leftists to describe off-kilter zealotry within activist circles. The right-wingers came along later and appropriated this valuable critique of activism and identity politics gone awry.

I agree wtih your criticism of those who defend the use of these words because the working class uses them, but I would argue that those who spend their time policing the language of activists and at the same time don\'t challenge these words when they are used by working people, are politically correct hypocrites. This is why I get so pissed off by political correctness. It\'s pretty fucking easy to go around and berate other activists for the occasional offensive word they use. It\'s far more difficult to change the minds of non-activist people. I say this as somebody who got into a heated argument with my sister several days ago abotu how I was offended by the Boy Scouts, especially their offensive appropriation of native American culture (the cartoon version).
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, January 07 2004 @ 08:55 AM CST
\'sitting here in a wheelchair i can tell you that yes, it is fucking offensive to constantly hear people using such terms as \"lame\" to describe things they think are weak, worthless, or otherwise screwed up - used to be, when i was young, that things now described as \"lame\" were called \"gay\" - why not anymore?\'

because Wayne and Garth rule! Not! It really depends on your circles. Someone I know got into an argument with someone else because they asked why they always said things they didn\'t like were gay, and they tried talking to them about the oppressive nature that language had, the person, throughohly impressed just simply said \'that\'s gay\' and walked away. Most of these poppy modern punk teenagers and twenty-somethings that I\'ve encountered tend to still call things gay. My point, your hypothesis is incorrect. Maybe people don\'t like you because you are a Dick, probably so much so that your name is Richard, and they like to call everything lame around you because you are doubly lame and get all pissed off to their delight because they don\'t assholes. And by asshole, I don\'t mean to offend people that have assholes, but rather I\'m talking about a mean spirited wanker. And by wanker I\'m not talking about some dude that jerks off constantly. See how context is important. In fact, you\'ve said lame several times yourself. I say lamedamn to your morality, as I would say Goddamn to a moralizing theist.

\'if you can\'t see the parallel here, especially if you\'ve been \"using non-oppressive language for most of your life\" then you\'re just being willfully ignorant, not to mention callous - yes, you insult me & i\'ll get pissed off - why not just call it \"left-anarchism is for pygmy brained idiots\" or \"left-anarchism is for pussies\"? or better yet, \"left-anarchism is for retards\" - lotsa giggles there, right?\'

Fuck yeah, you are bustin\' my sides buddy. So at this point I have to say you are left on the sensitve side of my center, maybe even ultra-sensitive. I say it is not the words, but the context in which they are used that is important, and you get upset. I will not make words taboo for anyone. I find this method of protecting people to be unacceptable and I rebel against it.

\'& don\'t give me this \"it\'s part of my working-class\" culture crap - you think that the working class is the only ones who use abusive & oppressive language? i\'m fucking working class & my parents made sure i didn\'t think that terms like k*ke, n*gger, b*tch & other insults were acceptable - not all of us in the working class are or were raised to be insensitive bigots, even those of us with tattle-tale sisters\'

No, I\'m not giving you working class bullshit, I\'m saying that your moralizing lefty culture is bullshit, and that context is what is important. I\'m also saying that no amount of language activism is going to change cultural expressions, the only reason any are changing from workplaces is because of boss coercion. If I called someone a sheister for giving me shady pot, am I an anti-semite? According to you, yes, according to me, no. The context of the word was used in an expression, one that you give into as well (see below). Expressions are part of the culture and lose their original meaning. I say \'Jesus\' when I see something surprisingly painful, despite being a rabid anti-christian buddhist atheist and \'Goddamn\' when frustrated, but I\'m not shaking my fist in the sky hoping I catch the eye of god so he can see my glare of agitation I offer the bastard.

\'it is highly ironic to have some of you be so dismissive of people critiquing the use of the term \"lame\" as insignificant & just a \"damn word\" when the whole thrust of this article seems to be about people needing to appreciate the earth-shaking importance of a new adjectival term for anarchist theory - again, perspective would be great right about now...\'

believe me, I don\'t really appreciate it that much, most of what they say is just restating anarchist positions, but I guess they are trying to update the perspective according to the type of world we are living in. And we aren\'t saying your insignificant, I am saying you are an ignorant whiner that wants me to change the way I talk because you generalize words people say to affect you despite the variance that words have in society. All language is not original, and not static, it comes from a history of changes that were caused spontaniously. Certainly various mediums affect how people talk, but at the same time though mediums must also change because people talk to other people more than repeat expressions from T.V. You are demanding an end to all terms that could be used in some manner as a term of oppression, I am saying that you cannot enforce this because people will continue to use cultural expressions unless aggressive force is likely to occur, then some say that bullshit behind closed doors.

\'get over it & grow up\'

Thank you for giving me this \'ageist\' expression to show you that everyone uses cultural expressions that aren\'t ment to demean a certain group, they are ment to be used as a color of language, something that sounds good to the ears and leaves a satisfying feeling in the gut.

I\'ll yak with ya later.







comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 25 2004 @ 08:24 PM CDT
left and right play a violent game that me as an anarchist want no part in. i will however use dirrect action and protective force with concencus among the people who\'s ideas i value and who value my ideas to stall that game or put an end to it.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 25 2004 @ 08:33 PM CDT
and what do you \'believe\' is wrong with egoism?
an individual first meeting his needs and being content, is something that comes before the ability to give to others. to me it seems like a very honest naturalistic thing , not to be associated with greed and isolation but with self-empowerment that allows you to form connections & understanding.


strawmen.- they exist and people continue to sell-out to them, these are the institutions associations governments corporations... things that will force you to play the left and right game and become disassociated from your feelings and needs.