"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."

Welcome to Infoshop News
Saturday, June 15 2013 @ 04:59 PM CDT

Anarchists in Wonderland: The Topsy-Turvy World

News ArchiveSubmitted by Institute for Anarchist Studies:

Throughout this thoroughly muddled dispute, the most consistently reasonable theorist for the post-left tendency has been Jason McQuinn, founding editor of Anarchy Magazine. McQuinn's take on the post-left idea is essentially a recapitulation of the themes that have preoccupied him since the 1970s: the critique of ideology, the rejection of moralism, suspicion toward formal organization, and the liberatory power of individual desire. These are familiar topics for many anarchists today, and have also found significant resonance among non-anarchist sectors of various radical movements.

There is much to be said about each of these notions in their specifically anarchist form, and McQuinn's latest essay (posted at the IAS website) offers ample opportunity to reflect on their implications for our praxis. What all this might have to do with rejecting "the left" as such, however, remains rather obscure. Indeed many of the core ideas of post-leftism trace their genealogy to left traditions themselves. The critique of organization, for example, is deeply indebted to the work of Jacques Camatte; the insistence on linking subjective psychological factors with broader social forces is presaged in the thinking of Cornelius Castoriadis; and the whole re-orientation toward domination as our central critical term was theorized by the Frankfurt School and by Social Ecology long before it gained currency in the pages of Anarchy.

Despite the provenance of many of its own fundamental principles, however, post-leftism adamantly rejects any accommodation with what it takes to be "the left". This phrase itself seems to expand or contract to fit the circumstances; when post-left anarchists talk about leftists, sometimes they mean sectarian splinter groups and authoritarian demagogues, and sometimes they mean everybody from Bukharin to Bookchin. Many anarchists drawn to the post-left label appear to live in a world in which all leftists are Leninists, except when they're liberals, and where the left as a whole is an ominous iceberg of power-worship threatening to sink a virtually Titanic-sized anarchist movement.

Since I do not live in that world, I am frequently at a loss when asked to reply to the claims of post-leftism. In the world where I live, the left is an extraordinarily variegated continuum of conflicting participants and perspectives, not a monolithic entity that can be reduced to a few neat premises. And the anarchist movement is a relatively small but vitally important current within that broader continuum, a current that still has much to learn from other radical tendencies and social movements. But in the hope of sparking something like a coherent debate on these questions, I will once more venture down the rabbit-hole and see what sense I can make of post-left theory in its myriad forms.

McQuinn's latest essay begins on a promising note. He observes, accurately enough, that the "void in the development of anarchist theory" has "yet to be filled by any adequate new formulation", and offers the post-left alternative as a way to address this gap. His conclusion strikes a conciliatory tone as well: "there has been a long, most often honorable, history of anarchist and left syntheses." This would seem to leave considerable room for critical engagement between anarchists and leftists.

But this raises an obvious problem: Why are McQuinn's more judicious statements of the post-left position at odds with both the details of his own argument and the vehement declarations of so many other post-left anarchists? The simplest explanation is that adherents of post-leftism are still working out the specifics of their vision, something that other anarchists can hardly fault them for. In this process, however, a number of the more troubling versions of post-left thinking will require serious reconsideration if the tendency is to live up to its own best intentions. And it is far from clear that McQuinn's current proposal is able to accommodate this much-needed reconsideration.

Perhaps the most telling instances of post-left zeal can be found in a sprawling on-line debate from 2002, hosted by the comrades at infoshop.org. The exchange can be found here:

http://flag.blackened.net/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=infoshopnew&Number=1255

Just about the only thing to emerge clearly from that discussion was that a number of the more vocal post-left anarchists are committed to a series of implausible claims that McQuinn's essay does not address, much less defend. We might simply stop at this point and ask, Will the real post-leftists please stand up? But maybe a more productive approach is to read McQuinn's contribution in light of the background provided by less discreet fans of the post-left position.

Let's begin with the nebulous notion of "the left" that animates the post-left critique. The leftists we meet in the extravagant denunciations proffered by post-left anarchists are an impressively protean bunch: they are all simultaneously totalitarians and reformists; their movements are disintegrating, trapped in inevitable decline, yet their mere presence threatens to overwhelm those anarchists foolish enough to ignore the urgent danger; they are ruthlessly fixated on an all-encompassing abstract ideology, yet at the same time they fritter away their activist energies on single-issue concrete campaigns. Even their opposition to capitalism is mostly fake. McQuinn himself relies on such caricatured portraits more often than not; his essay resounds with telltale modifiers like "all" and "every", "always" and "everywhere". This lack of nuance does little to further anarchist evaluations of left practice.

McQuinn is similarly fond of sweeping assertions about what "the vast majority" of leftists have thought and done throughout history. More careful descriptions are overshadowed by categorical pronouncements: "For leftists, the emphasis is always on recruiting to their organizations, so that you can adopt the role of a cadre serving their goals." To an extent this can be chalked up to simple rhetorical excess, but such undifferentiated claims are often taken literally by the post-leftist faithful, who fail to notice that these indiscriminate generalizations do not accord well with McQuinn's ringing criticisms of reductionism.

The post-left image of "the left" is not just overly simplified, it is frequently wrong on the particulars. McQuinn writes, for example, that the "critique of everyday life" is "largely incompatible" with "most of the New Left of the 60s and 70s." In Germany, France, and North America, at the very least, large segments of the New Left enthusiastically embraced the critique of everyday life; indeed the profoundly anti-authoritarian upsurge of that era – which was of course accompanied by an authoritarian backlash – owed much of its vigor and incisiveness to this re-orientation toward everyday relationships. The influential three-volume work The Critique of Everyday Life was written not by an anarchist, but by the French leftist Henri Lefebvre.

Themes such as the critique of everyday life and the critique of ideology have in fact been central to radical forms of left politics for decades. The classic primer by Richard Gombin, for example, The Origins of Modern Leftism, devotes a pivotal chapter to "A Critique of Everyday Life". More important, the concrete practice of countless New Leftists was explicitly predicated on a forceful rejection of precisely those values which McQuinn takes to be constitutive of the left as such. This strand of left radicalism did not appear out of nowhere in the 1960s; it has its roots in earlier figures such as Alexandra Kollontai or Wilhelm Reich, and found one of its most articulate spokespeople in Herbert Marcuse, whose work on the topic reached back to the 1930's. All of these individuals were non-anarchist leftists.

Similar points could be made about the critique of industrial technology, which McQuinn also takes to be essentially foreign to leftist thought. The actual history of the left includes numerous instances when such innovative critical approaches emerged to contest the conformism and repressiveness of the cadre model. There is no sensible reason to collapse this multifaceted record into a one-dimensional tale of leftist perfidy. Moreover, some leftists have been thoughtful and resolute allies of anarchism at crucial junctures in our history. Many anarchists learn about the Spanish revolution through the superb account Homage to Catalonia, penned by George Orwell. Orwell was a leftist who fought side by side with other leftists and anarchists against both the right and the Stalinists in Spain. Today one of the chief ways that inquisitive anarchists have easy access to the classics of our own tradition is through the work of leftists like Daniel Guerin. Selective memory will not help us make sense of the conflicted history of left interactions with anarchists.

But the problem here goes beyond one-sided depictions of the left. Post-left anarchists also rely on a truncated conception of anarchism itself. McQuinn's essay is not immune to this tendency; at several points he insists that anarchism as a whole rests on an "indelibly individualist foundation". If this were true, it would be difficult to explain the centuries-old internal struggles between individualist anarchists and social anarchists. Without recapitulating these debates here, suffice it to say that many contemporary anarchists reject McQuinn's contention that "collectivism" is inherently suspect while "individual self-theory" is the source of liberation. His ill-considered invocations of Stirner aside, McQuinn neglects the crucial dialectic between individual and collective that is the distinctive feature of social anarchist praxis. While we can probably all agree with McQuinn's observation that "without the autonomous individual, any other level of autonomy is impossible", post-leftists would do well to remember that the reverse is equally true: Without autonomous collectivities, individual autonomy is impossible. McQuinn's commitment to individualist assumptions leads him to misconstrue this fundamental relationship. Getting things more or less backwards, he writes that "only free individuals can create a free, unalienated society." But free individuals do not drop out of the sky; they are themselves the product of free societies.

This myopic insistence on individual autonomy comes back to haunt post-leftism when its more hyperbolic advocates take the floor. In the aforementioned infoshop debates, several spokespeople for post-left positions emphatically declared their opposition to egalitarianism (hardly surprising in a tendency that takes its cues from Stirner and Nietzsche), and a number of them claimed to reject social institutions per se, maintaining that all social structures of whatever sort are inherently oppressive. Forgetting the cultural context within which many US-based anarchists operate, some of these post-leftists carry the ideal of rugged individualism to the point of self-parody, declaring that in the liberated future, nobody will ever have to associate with people they don't personally like. One of them summed up the post-left stance by saying simply "I want to be left alone", free of all the annoying attachments of social life, without other people interjecting their own opinions or offering critical comments on each other's behavior.

Though the promoters of these notions strenuously deny it, what this attitude amounts to is a rejection of the very possibility of communal existence. If all social structures are inherently oppressive, there is no point in trying to create a free society. If libertarian and participatory social institutions are impossible by definition, we can all stay home and read Foucault. It may seem trivial to state these matters so baldly, but sharing the world with other people means that sometimes we can't do exactly what we want to do, and sometimes we will indeed need to cooperate with people we don't like very much. The false promise of absolute individual autonomy is not simply an idle fantasy, it is profoundly indebted to those classical liberal principles that underwrite capitalist society as we know it. Genuine autonomy is not the mere absence of constraints. In its more extreme versions, the post-left vision is encumbered by a negative conception of freedom, a conception reduced to the liberty of atomized individuals, who jealously guard their private rights and prerogatives. It cannot accommodate a positive conception of social freedom, a kind of freedom that flourishes in cooperation with others and demands equality as its necessary counterpart, a kind of freedom that is embodied in anti-authoritarian social structures and cooperative social practices.

Many post-left enthusiasts also seem to think of "leftists" as a bunch of busybodies who are constantly telling other people what to do. Some leftists do fit this description, and it is likely that this propensity often compounds the existing authoritarian disposition of a certain leftist personality type. But apart from the fact that these same trends are fiercely combatted by many other leftists of a more anti-authoritarian disposition, there is something disconcertingly complacent about the unexamined perceptions of proper behavior that underlie this particular post-left complaint. After all, liberatory forms of social interaction sometimes require us to challenge each other's opinions and actions rather than just accepting them. The world will not be a better place if we keep our thoughts to ourselves and largely leave each other alone – especially when we're engaged with people who are not our personal friends and familiar acquaintances. The time-honored anarchist principle of free association does not license insularity; instead it encourages exploration and mutual recognition, including critical contestation of what other people say and do. This is how social cohesion is kept transparent and solidarity is nourished. To abandon such efforts in the name of individual sovereignty would mean an impoverishment of anarchist comradeship.

McQuinn's essay does not confront this form of post-left repressive tolerance, whose deeper implications are actually an invitation to intolerance and parochialism. Rather McQuinn focuses his attention on the manifold shortcomings of contemporary radical politics. Overlooking the aporias of his own theory, he notes that "leftists have incomplete, self-contradictory theories about capitalism and social change." But we all have these. Capitalism is a contradictory system. Revolutionary social change is an incomplete process. Working through these contradictions requires close attention to the concrete determinants of currently prevalent modes of domination and hierarchy, so that we can create forms of resistance adequate to the particular demands of our specific historical and social situation. Under present conditions, trumpeting our commitment to "general social revolt" simply promotes the kind of false generalism that is already rife in North American anarchist circles. Too many of us think that since we're anarchists, we are "by definition" opposed to all forms of oppression; thus we don't really need to grapple with any of them in particular. This is one area where an informed engagement with several left traditions could do anarchists a lot of good. Instead of the abstract negation of existing society that post-leftists sometimes preach, critical contact with "single-issue campaigns" and experienced activists can help us move toward a determinate negation of the systems of power that surround us.

Learning from the civil rights struggle, for example, or the strategies pioneered by peasant revolts in the global south, could bring a wealth of grassroots perspectives to bear on the contestations we are part of in our own local contexts. But an anarchism that hopes to "stand on its own and bow to no other movements" will be ill equipped to engage in this sort of learning process; indeed it will be unprepared for active solidarity with those movements it consigns to "the left". This attitude exacerbates the existing tendency among anarchists to consider our own perspectives invariably more comprehensive than those of non-anarchists. Whether there is in fact "a huge divide" between the project of abolishing "every form of social alienation", on the one hand, and the myriad sub-projects concentrating on particular instances of alienation on the other, is not a question that can be answered in advance. The more radicalized and ambitious such concrete struggles become, the more they narrow this gap and reach toward fuller forms of liberation. But this is a matter of practice, of hands-on confrontation with specific manifestations of unfreedom under definite historical conditions. To declare such "partial goals" woefully incomplete is to miss the point. Adopting a more all-encompassing critical viewpoint, even one that fancies itself free of reification and ideology, does not in itself render the social circumstances ripe for total revolution.

In overlooking these potentially radicalizing occasions for mutual aid and reciprocal learning, the post-left tendency deprives itself of a much-needed counterweight to its individualist preferences and its skepticism toward democratic procedures. At times this suspicion toward collective endeavors and toward non-anarchist varieties of radicalism suggests a misguided desire for purity: We are the only ones with an uncompromising commitment to thoroughgoing liberation in all spheres of life, post-left anarchists sometimes seem to say, and we must guard against contaminating this precious legacy with insufficiently intransigent elements. In its most unreflective form, this mindset is nothing more than a recipe for anarchist sectarianism, the bane of any movement that wants to change the world.

All of this casts a rather different light on McQuinn's forays into psychology. He is convinced that left anarchists who are unpersuaded by the rhetoric of post-leftism are simply anxiously resisting "the self-examination necessary for genuine self-understanding." In reality, a number of post-leftism's critics have tried to provoke greater self-examination among anarchists, a more serious re-appraisal of the lacunae within our own traditions, by questioning the tendentially elitist undertones that mark so much anarchist discourse. Individualist strands of anarchism are especially susceptible to a disdain for "the masses", and the post-left persuasion frequently accentuates the inegalitarian aspects of this worldview. A few post-left anarchists go so far as to extol the right wing tendencies within anarchism as a healthy corrective to the grave dangers of social equality and the dastardly connivance of anarchists and power-mad leftists.

On this score, McQuinn's essay sets off alarm bells for readers familiar with the neglected history of anarchist flirtations with the right. Anarchism has long had something of a Janus face, oscillating between emancipatory and exclusivist poles. Stirner himself is an exemplary figure in this regard: simultaneously the chief inspiration for one wing of anarchism, and a darling of the right, from its proprietarian faction to its pronounced elitist and authoritarian variants. The problem here is not really that of an "opening to the political right", as McQuinn anticipates, but rather the naïve notion that anarchists can now, through force of will alone, walk through the looking glass into the promised land of "neither left nor right". Post-left anarchists would do well to examine the history of this foolish slogan before adopting it into their repertoire. In its modern form the phrase was popularized by the right wing of the German Greens, particularly the far-right authoritarian Herbert Gruhl, during the reactionary backlash of the early 1980's. But the roots of the neither-left-nor-right idea go considerably further back; a version of this stance was popular within the nationalist and populist völkisch movement in Wilhelmine and Weimar Germany, and the pretence of offering a 'third way' between left and right became one of the major selling points for European fascism.

Anarchists have not always escaped this kind of political disorientation. From the peculiar response of Proudhonists to the Dreyfus Affair, to the Italian syndicalists who joined Mussolini, to the "national anarchists" and "third positionists" of today, anarchist militants have sometimes found a comfortable home on the extreme right end of the spectrum. Although post-left anarchists often dismiss such cases as either isolated or irrelevant, the record of anarchist crossover into far right terrain is in fact remarkably long. Among the better known examples are Georges Sorel in France, Günther Bartsch in Germany, Troy Southgate in Britain, and Bill White in the US. The desire to move 'beyond left and right' played a key role in several of these instances, and continues to do so today. The conclusion to McQuinn's essay suggests an indifferent attitude, at best, toward this regrettable history.

All in all, the post-left paradigm still needs a lot of refining. In the midst of condemning reductionism, reification, and the failed politics of the sectarian left, it relies on a reductionist view of left history and a reified notion of absolute individuality while encouraging the sectarian strands within anarchism. The much-needed process of theoretical and practical refinement would be more effective if post-left adherents could bring themselves to engage with the criticisms put forward by left anarchists. Indeed that step alone might spur a re-thinking of the categories post-leftists hold so dear, along with a recognition that there are important libertarian and anti-statist strands within the left. Drawing the consequences from this recognition would likely mean a major overhaul of post-left anarchy in its present form. In place of wholesale rejection of a mythical "left" that is devoid of distinctions, post-leftists would have to acknowledge that the left, just like the right, is an extremely heterogeneous spectrum, not a single entity, and that some of its currents warrant more than scorn.

Anarchists are working toward a society where everyone who wants to can participate in social affairs on an equal footing, where domination and hierarchy have been replaced by solidarity and self-management. The project of creating such a society will require cooperation with a broad range of oppositional movements, many of whom have solid grounds for refraining from a wholehearted embrace of anarchist doctrine. A nuanced understanding of how our own principles can be articulated to the insights and experiences of compatible struggles will go a long way toward overcoming the blind spots in the anarchist tradition. An anarchism that wishes to avoid reification and leave the mistakes of the past behind will take this lesson to heart.


Peter Staudenmaier
Share
  • Facebook
  • Google Bookmarks
  • Ask
  • Kirtsy
  • LinkedIn
  • Digg
  • Twitter
  • SlashDot
  • Reddit
  • MySpace
  • Fark
  • Del.icio.us
  • Blogmarks
  • Yahoo Buzz
Anarchists in Wonderland: The Topsy-Turvy World | 98 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 12:41 PM CST
I find this whole thing very interesting. I haven\'t poked my nose into the post-leftist issue yet. Looks like its time I do. Anyone care to reccomend some lucid essays on the topic that are available online? And please don\'t recommend that I pick up Anarchy magazine -- I can\'t afford it.

It sounds like your conception of post-leftist, Chuck, is more of a tactical shift rather than a theoretical shift. Making the anarchist movement an actual movement of anarchists and such...
comment by Kame504
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 12:54 PM CST
\"his myopic insistence on individual autonomy comes back to haunt post-leftism when its more hyperbolic advocates take the floor. In the aforementioned infoshop debates, several spokespeople for post-left positions emphatically declared their opposition to egalitarianism (hardly surprising in a tendency that takes its cues from Stirner and Nietzsche), and a number of them claimed to reject social institutions per se, maintaining that all social structures of whatever sort are inherently oppressive. Forgetting the cultural context within which many US-based anarchists operate, some of these post-leftists carry the ideal of rugged individualism to the point of self-parody, declaring that in the liberated future, nobody will ever have to associate with people they don\'t personally like. One of them summed up the post-left stance by saying simply \"I want to be left alone\", free of all the annoying attachments of social life, without other people interjecting their own opinions or offering critical comments on each other\'s behavior. \"

Curious, who are you referring to exactly and why dont you mention them by name? I would like to see your source for this....

Also the concept of affinity for example doesn\'t mean people who are your friends as it is used in the anti-globalization movemnt, it means to have a deep understanding of other people\'s ideas, views, how they want to act, etc. And you can develop affinity without liking someone personally. Also see writings by Wolfi and Lawrence Jarach taht explain reasons behind critique, they aren\'t against critique at all. Dumb...


One weak point of mcquinn is that he uses language in a way that other people don\'t use it. Collectivism to him doesnt mean any sort of communist tendency, it simply means the subsumption of the individual into the group to which they now must pay their respects (community in place of the state), rather than having the group be a collection of individuals. So I think you caricature of individualism is ridiculous, no one rejects living and interacting with other people, autonomous in decision making over our own lives, not alienated from people. I would say that most post-leftists would call themselves anarchist communists if it wasnt so associated with supporting unions and being platformists.


Also \"Similar points could be made about the critique of industrial technology, which McQuinn also takes to be essentially foreign to leftist thought. The actual history of the left includes numerous instances when such innovative critical approaches emerged to contest the conformism and repressiveness of the cadre model.\"


Ok so who critiqued indutrial technology? You skip that and go on to the cadre model. Leftists have critiqued industrial technology, but only as something that is environmentally destructive, that is not what the critique of technology is about, it\'s about the disciplined social organization that is required, that subsumes people to the rythms and fucntioning of machine, how it deskills people, exploits us more efficiently, how it is a capitalist project that proles never demanded in the first place. I think this goes along with the concept of the destruction of work.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 12:54 PM CST
There are some online articles available through this page:
http://www.infoshop.org/afterleftism.html

Yeah, for me post-leftism is mostly about tactics and politics. I just think that more of us need to come out as anarchists in our activism and do a better job of putting our principles into practice. I\'m not against working with people on the left, but I think that we often spend too much time working with the left at the expense of our anarchist politics. That\'s one reason why I\'m advocating a continental anti-capitalist network, so we anarchists can start working with other anti-capitalists to set our own agenda and program instead of relying on what liberal groups like UFPJ and authoritarian sectarians like ANSWER are doing.

Let ANSWER do a breakway march from one of OUR events. ;-)
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 01:00 PM CST
When we say that anarchism is neither left or right, we really mean that. And there are plenty of anarchists who aren\'t post-leftist who agree with this slogan. Anarchism may have had a logn relationship with the Left, but it is an entirely different thing outside of leftism. Those who insist on putting anarchism back into leftism merely confirm the need for post-leftism.

Part of Peter\'s argument is that when post-leftists talk about \"the left\" we\'re never sure what they aer really talking about. \"Neither left nor right\" has alot of historical baggage. Further, I don\'t see why we continue to use the phrase \"left\" at all, cause it\'s practially useless... doubly so when the \"post-left\" has defined itself as coming after such a vague concept as \"left\". Left-Right are a very simplistic analsyis that you have to fairly immediately abandon when talking seriously about politics. \"Post-Left\" by defining itself as coming after and in opposition to some vague thing called the left is stuck in the same quagmire.

I appreciate the attention that Staudenmaier is giving to a critique of post-leftism, but at this point I\'m regreting not writing more on this topic myself. I\'m disappointed that McQuinn and Co. have monopolized the theory department.

That\'s the rub, ain\'t it. Number of articles written by McQuinn on Post-Leftism: 5; # of articles written by Chuck0 on Post-Leftism: 0; Wolf i, Lawrence, etc... have all writen more about post-leftism than you have. Also McQuinn/Anarchy is publishing a new book on Post-Left Anarchy as well as Bob Black \"Anarchy after Leftism\". Frankly, Chuck... if you really disagree with how the folks who are writing about post-leftism define the theory, then you are going to have to write some yourself, challenge their arguments, debate them... in a public forum; otherwise it will be their arguments alone that define \"post-leftism\"; and it will be their arguments that others respond to... not yours.

but the fact that anarchists would argue something that contradicts basic anarchist theory demonstrates why we need post-leftism

No. It doesn\'t mean that. What it means is that we need some attention to basic anarchist theory.

Post-leftism would inform anarchists about the need to organize our own campaigns and protests in situations where leftists have organized stuff that is at odds with our goals and praxis.

Or maybe it\'s not \"post-leftism\" that gives us that critique but anarchism. Honestly, none of the \"post-left\" critiques of \"leftism\" are alien from anarchism. Anarchism provides anarchists with insight about what to do as workers engaged in union organizing... that is a distrust (if not outright rejection) of the NLRB... the IWW has had, and even AFL-CIO unions increasingly reject the NLRB. Some anarchist \"leftists\" like NEFAC put action where our mouth is and support recognition strikes, or launch our own. But what anarchism should really inform us about is that it\'s the workers THEMSELVES (ourselves!) who decide on what tactics they will use, when they negotiate with the state and the boss; and when they take direct action.

If we just fight for reforms or turn into social service flacks, then we are liberals and not anarchists

Right, but it\'s not \"post-leftism\" that informs that... it\'s anarchism. Or hell, anti-authoritarianism and an emphasis on direct action. OCAP has been far more successful at that, and OCAP is hardly a bastion of post-leftist theory!

but because anarchists shouldn\'t be wasting resources on relationships with groups that just don\'t matter. There don\'t seem to be many anarchists who are working with the \"dinosaur left\" so perhaps this idea has sunken in.

Ahhh... but politically, is there really that much difference between The Sparticists and Workers World Party? Not much from an anarchist perspective. But anarchists do have to work with ANSWER because the ARE releveant to the anti-war movement(s). The CP-USA might be irrelevant most of the time, except if in your local union the CP has a strong presence. You want to draw lines and adopt some kind of rigid policy... it never works that way. Even within such an authoritarian party as the WWP, there are some individuals (and sometimes local chapters) that you can work with in a reasonably principled manner for certain goals. And then some other leftists you can actually have nteresting debate with that improves your own theories and practice.

in the hope of dismissing them as bad anarchists. In my view, post-leftism is NOT about labelling entire anarchist strains as \"left\" or \"bad\" or whatever.

Then maybe you should have said something to that effect in regards to Anarchy:aJoDA #54. Kevin Keating did.

I do agree though... trying to link in shit about Bill White was lame and a stupid debate trick; and it gives that clown more attention than he deserves.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 11:17 AM CST
Well written.
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 11:18 AM CST
Flamebait deleted.
comment by Anti-Fascist
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 12:08 PM CST

Thanks for pointing out that thread, Peter. It shows exactly how pathetically feeble your arguments for collusion with authoritarians really are and how easily they were dismantled - over two years ago.

Alas, but recycling bullshit in a very wordy fashion is an ever-popular pass-time at the Institute for Bookchin Studies, it would appear.

At any rate, this thread did give me several hearty laughs, but the post below - in reply to one of your own - was so appropriate, it deserved highlighting on it\'s on merits:

Extracted from here.

In point of fact, Pete, you have had, as I indicated, much trouble keeping your story straight. You started this thread with the expressed intention of making sure that \"Post-Left\" did not excluding the \"Left\", as in this post here:

http://flag.blackened.net/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=infoshopnew&Number=5623&page=&view=&sb=&o=

It was pointed out that we in no way are excluding what you call the \"Left\", and, further, that most of us don\'t even believe that this mythical creature exists. So, then you changed your position (in what we afficinados of Peter\'s Follies like to call the \"It\'s either Left or it\'s Right.\" phase), a bit of which is found here and above it (Note also in this post the presence of one of the many \"Well, maybe some authoritarians ... just the nice ones.\" that you spread throughout your posts.) :

http://flag.blackened.net/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=infoshopnew&Number=5724&page=&view=&sb=&o=

Beaten on that ground as well, you then entered the very popular (and widely re-posted for humor value) \"Definitions are Oppressive\" phase of rhetoric, such as in this post:

http://flag.blackened.net/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=infoshopnew&Number=7922&page=&view=&sb=&o=

Speaking as a lover of fine comedic art and logical conundrums, I gotta say that I have rarely come across such fine work as you undetook in that period, and I\'m am most pleased that you seem to have warmed to it sufficiently that, when pressed into admission of internal inconsistency - an ever-present danger, it seems - you readily take back to this tactic and supply us all with yet more logical pli
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 11:23 AM CST
Bravo!
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 10:09 AM CST
Anarchy magazine is engaged in principled criticism and critical thinking about anarchism.

It is those so-called \"principals\" of dialogue and debate that I find particularly laughable. Common, no one who has read Anarchy mag over the past several years can truthfully say that the over all presence of critical pieces in the magazine has been \"principled.\" Much of it has certainly been juvenile name calling, masquerading under attempts to seem reasonable by tossing in a few big words and loaded terms.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 12:01 PM CST
If Peter argues that the discussion over post-leftism is muddied, this essay pollutes the discussion more than it offers any constructive criticism of post-leftism. This essay replicates one of the chief problems haunting North American anarchism over the past twenty years: the inability of some anarchists to listen to what other anarchists are saying and instead come back with an attack that lumps the other anarchists into a great ball of unrelated ideas, positions, and people. This reminds me of the guys at meetings who don\'t listen to the nuances of the conversation because they are too busy thinking about what they are going to say. Peter\'s essay above reads like a coherent critique of post-left anarchists, but it is another in a string of ad hominim exchanges that anarchism really needs to avoid.

First of all, Peter Staudenmaier is correct when he says that the post-leftist critique isn\'t consistent. That\'s because those of us who are advancing the critique disagree with each other. We aren\'t advancing some program out of Anarchy magazine that Jason McQuinn dreamed up. The idea of post-leftism appeals to me because of my experience working as an activist with leftists, as well as a response to leftist ideas that have recently clouded the anarchism of new anarchists. The fact that post-leftists aren\'t advancing McQuinn\'s ideas pretty much tears down the strawman that Peter has built up that implies that post-leftism is the same thing as everything advanced in the pages of Anarchy magazine. This nonsense has been advanced by other anarchists who erroneously claim that post leftism is anti-organizational, primitivist, or whatever. These people are confusing one of the primary post-leftist theorists--McQuinn--with everything that is post-leftism. This is one reason why I have distanced myself from McQuinn and Anarchy magazine when it comes to post-leftism.

Staudenmaier has the right to criticize the elements what McQuinn\'s claims are part of post-leftism, such as individualism. I happen to disagree with McQuinn\'s emphasis on individualism and egoism--I am a \"synthesist\" when it comes to the individualism vs. collectivism question. But just as Staudenmaier is wrong to associate individualism with post-leftism, so is McQuinn wrong to muddy post-leftism with the other parts of his political project. Staudenmaier\'s critique of McQuinn\'s individualism really should be separated from any critique of post-leftism.

Before I go on about more minor stuff, let me say that Staudenmaier\'s baiting of post-leftism with an association with right wing ideologies is uncalled for and totally inaccurate. Staudenmaier has made an academic career out of research about German fascism, but it is preposterous to suggest that post-leftism will lead anarchism down the path to right wing ideas. When we say that anarchism is neither left or right, we really mean that. And there are plenty of anarchists who aren\'t post-leftist who agree with this slogan. Anarchism may have had a logn relationship with the Left, but it is an entirely different thing outside of leftism. Those who insist on putting anarchism back into leftism merely confirm the need for post-leftism.

In any case, it\'s ridiculous to suggest that post-leftism is about getting anarchism to be friendly with the right. In my talks with post-leftists, not only has there been no talk about going towards the right, post-leftists have rejected such an idea as absurd. And as somebody who has been involved in the fight against right wingers and fascists, I\'m triply offended by this accusation.

I appreciate the attention that Staudenmaier is giving to a critique of post-leftism, but at this point I\'m regreting not writing more on this topic myself. I\'m disappointed that McQuinn and Co. have monopolized the theory department and allowed so-called opponents of post-leftism to cover their ears so they can only see that this theory and critique just comes \"from the guys who do Anarchy magazine.\" This does anarchism a disservice, because post-leftism is greatly needed right now in anarchism. One example is the recent discussion on this website on voting, where we saw so-called anarchists arguing that voting is compatible with anarchism. Voting is a choice that anarchist can choose to make as individuals, but voting runs contrary to the ideas of anarchism. These are the basic ideas of anarchism that even Staudenmaier probably agrees with, but the fact that anarchists would argue something that contradicts basic anarchist theory demonstrates why we need post-leftism.

Staudenmaier also argue that post-leftism means a rejection of working with the left. That may be true of a few hardcore post-leftists *as individuals*, but that doesn\'t mean that every post-leftist thinks that way, In fact, I\'ve long argued that post-leftism can be applicable to those of us who work with leftists in coalitions and projects. I agree that we can\'t go live in our perfect anarchist ghetto, but that isn\'t what post-leftism is about. Post-leftism would inform anarchists about the need to organize our own campaigns and protests in situations where leftists have organized stuff that is at odds with our goals and praxis. Such as anarchists who organize anti-war protests separate from ANSWER instead of just blindly following ANSWER. Post-leftism could also inform those anarchists who are working on unionization efforts. It would help draw lines about how much anarchists participated in reform efforts or things that empowered the state. For example, post-leftism would be used by anarchists to decide that they would help some workers join a union, but thet they wouldn\'t assist the workers in securing NLRB recognition.

Post-leftism is about drawing lines when we work with the left or anybody else. It\'s about reminding ourselves about our priniciples and informing our decisions about where to devote our resources and energy. For example, I\'ve been involved in homeless and affordable housing activism in Washington, DC. Much of that work has involved reformist appeals to the local government and the use of direct action. But several of us anarchists have started asking questions about where to draw the lines. At some point as anarchists we need to start taking over houses or using direct action to empower poor people. If we just fight for reforms or turn into social service flacks, then we are liberals and not anarchists.

I also see post-leftism as a critical stance vis a vis the \"dinosaur left,\" also known as the sectarian left or authoritarian left. It\'s not because we should be afraid of them--I laugh when I think about how stupid it would be to fear the ISO--but because anarchists shouldn\'t be wasting resources on relationships with groups that just don\'t matter. There don\'t seem to be many anarchists who are working with the \"dinosaur left\" so perhaps this idea has sunken in.

I also understand that some post-leftists have decided to use post-leftism as a program to label other anarchist tendencies with the label of \"left anarchists,\" in the hope of dismissing them as bad anarchists. In my view, post-leftism is NOT about labelling entire anarchist strains as \"left\" or \"bad\" or whatever. I\'m more concerned with challenging bad leftist ideas that have permeated anarchism, such as the argument that voting is compatible with anarchism. And yes, Peter, there are important anti-statist and libertarian strains on the left. Infoshop.org has been friendly towards those tendencies and so has Anarchy magazine. I just don\'t see post-leftism as merely being a wholesale rejection of the left.
comment by Helen
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 01:07 PM CST

That\'s a great idea, Chuck, but why call it \"anti-capitalist\"? Does that mean we have the ISO, RCP, ANSWER, third positionist, etc in it?

If so, most of us would want absolutely no part of it.

If not, then just call it what it is: \"anti-authoritarian\".
comment by Magic Missile
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 01:25 PM CST
I think it is a sign of weakness of us social anarchists that we are still playing in the same sandboxes with individualists, post-leftists, primitivists or what have you. We have the right positions in our heads, but as long as we don\'t go out there and make real our ideas, we\'re still only one tiny step away from those we find irrelevant.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 01:33 PM CST
Part of Peter\'s argument is that when post-leftists talk about \"the left\" we\'re never sure what they aer really talking about. \"Neither left nor right\" has alot of historical baggage. Further, I don\'t see why we continue to use the phrase \"left\" at all, cause it\'s practially useless... doubly so when the \"post-left\" has defined itself as coming after such a vague concept as \"left\". Left-Right are a very simplistic analsyis that you have to fairly immediately abandon when talking seriously about politics. \"Post-Left\" by defining itself as coming after and in opposition to some vague thing called the left is stuck in the same quagmire.

I agree that we are dealing with some vague terms and the baggage involved with the whole stupid left-right spectrum. The Left has been defined as many things. Some people define the Left as being the non-liberal left which includes socialists and communists. Other lump in the liberals. Most average people see the Left as being just the Democrats and they don\'t even bother with the socialists or communists. Still others lump in anarchists with the left (and even I do that out of laziness).

I think that anarchism is opposed to the left and right on some fundamental political issues, most importantly the state. Anarchists don\'t like red fascism or old-fashioned jackbooted nazi fascism. Anarchists are for cooperation, organizing at the point of production, self management, and so on. I think that we anarchists need to be more outspoken about why we are different, either from the liberals, the left sectarians, the libertarians, and the right wing.

That\'s the rub, ain\'t it. Number of articles written by McQuinn on Post-Leftism: 5; # of articles written by Chuck0 on Post-Leftism: 0; Wolf i, Lawrence, etc... have all writen more about post-leftism than you have. Also McQuinn/Anarchy is publishing a new book on Post-Left Anarchy as well as Bob Black \"Anarchy after Leftism\". Frankly, Chuck... if you really disagree with how the folks who are writing about post-leftism define the theory, then you are going to have to write some yourself, challenge their arguments, debate them... in a public forum; otherwise it will be their arguments alone that define \"post-leftism\"; and it will be their arguments that others respond to... not yours.

Yeah, it looks like I will have to do that. My priorities always lie elsewhere, but perhaps it\'s time that I wrote an article about post-leftism. I\'ve been pretty pissed off that the debate on post-leftism has degenerated into a situation where post-leftism has been lumped in with ANarchy magazine. While I agree with Jason McQuinn on many things and think that he is doing some of the best writing on anarchism these days, I disagree with him on many things, including his effort to throw egoism into post-leftism.

No. It doesn\'t mean that. What it means is that we need some attention to basic anarchist theory.

In other words, yes. But the main problems we are having with people being confused about basic anarchist theory usually involves leftism. Such as the confused arguments that anarchism should support voting.

Or maybe it\'s not \"post-leftism\" that gives us that critique but anarchism. Honestly, none of the \"post-left\" critiques of \"leftism\" are alien from anarchism. Anarchism provides anarchists with insight about what to do as workers engaged in union organizing... that is a distrust (if not outright rejection) of the NLRB... the IWW has had, and even AFL-CIO unions increasingly reject the NLRB. Some anarchist \"leftists\" like NEFAC put action where our mouth is and support recognition strikes, or launch our own. But what anarchism should really inform us about is that it\'s the workers THEMSELVES (ourselves!) who decide on what tactics they will use, when they negotiate with the state and the boss; and when they take direct action.

I think you\'ve articulated some fine post-leftism theory there, Flint, although it hasn\'t been approved by the Anarchy magazine central committee. ;-)

I think that post-leftism could be articulated in a practical critique that would help us in situations like you describe. In a sense, your example of the IWW turning away from the NLRB is an example of what should be happening if the post-leftist critique was being used by more anarchists. There should be this ongoing \"skepticism\" that would prompt us to draw lines in our practical work. How far do we go with reformist stuff and where do we need to get back to anarchist principles?

If we just fight for reforms or turn into social service flacks, then we are liberals and not anarchists

Right, but it\'s not \"post-leftism\" that informs that... it\'s anarchism. Or hell, anti-authoritarianism and an emphasis on direct action. OCAP has been far more successful at that, and OCAP is hardly a bastion of post-leftist theory!

Right, but these situation frequently involve work with leftists and sometimes we see anarchists who consciously or unconsciously advocate leftist ideas and tactics. We\'ll never reach a perfect situation where every anarchist avoids these pitfalls, but I see post-leftism as being an ongoing for of critique and education. If we have anarchists who are advocating voting, then we have a problem not just of people not knowing the basic of anarchism, but with comrades who are frequently being manipulated by rhetoric coming from the leftists they work with (and I\'ve seen these leftists post nonsense to Indymedia that is designed to confuse people about anarchism).

but because anarchists shouldn\'t be wasting resources on relationships with groups that just don\'t matter. There don\'t seem to be many anarchists who are working with the \"dinosaur left\" so perhaps this idea has sunken in.

Ahhh... but politically, is there really that much difference between The Sparticists and Workers World Party? Not much from an anarchist perspective. But anarchists do have to work with ANSWER because the ARE releveant to the anti-war movement(s). The CP-USA might be irrelevant most of the time, except if in your local union the CP has a strong presence. You want to draw lines and adopt some kind of rigid policy... it never works that way. Even within such an authoritarian party as the WWP, there are some individuals (and sometimes local chapters) that you can work with in a reasonably principled manner for certain goals. And then some other leftists you can actually have nteresting debate with that improves your own theories and practice.

Yes, there are individuals within these groups that you can work with, but anarchists need to stick to their guns when it comes to groups like ANSWER, which really haven\'t done any effective anti-war activism. I\'ve been working with other anarchists AND anti-statist leftists to attack ANSWER\'s self-appointed position as leaders of the anti-war movement (sic) and we\'ve been successful. There is even a hot debate within UFPJ right now about their future relationship with ANSWER.

Then maybe you should have said something to that effect in regards to Anarchy:aJoDA #54. Kevin Keating did.

I\'m saying it now and I\'ll say it again.

I do agree though... trying to link in shit about Bill White was lame and a stupid debate trick; and it gives that clown more attention than he deserves.

Right.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 01:35 PM CST
Well, the anti-authoritarian part would be stuck in there somewhere. I know that the sectarian groups think of themseleves as anti-capitalists, but they are generally unwelcome in anti-capitalist coalitions. But we\'ll make sure to add the AA bit!
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 01:54 PM CST
Flint: After thinking a bit more about your comments while in the shower, I\'m thinking that perhaps the problems I\'m having with people not understanding Anarchism 101 are quite different than post-leftism. Maybe I need to reduce post-leftism down to a critique involving anarchism\'s relationship to the left.
comment by Fact Checker
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 02:58 PM CST
Right when I started reading this article, I came across this:

\"Jason McQuinn, founding editor of Anarchy Magazine\"

Isn\'t that not quite correct? Wasn\'t Lev Chernyev the founding editor of Anarchy Magazine and Jason McQuinn took over later?
comment by anarchocommie
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 02:59 PM CST
I would say that most post-leftists would call themselves anarchist communists if it wasnt so associated with supporting unions and being platformists.

Maybe on the insurrectionalist end of post-leftism (Willful Disobedience, KKA). But Jason McQuinn (\"Mr. Post-Left\") is very up front in identifying as a \"Stirnerite individualist\". Bob Black is certainly an individualist as well.
comment by -llowell-
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 03:47 PM CST
ya, I\'m sorry but the post leftist debate is really alot of smoke and mirrors. Those advocating \"post-leftist\" anarchism seem to me to just be advancing a neo-\"anarcho\"individulism with a flashy name. In reality \"post left\" anarchsim is like saying \"post capitlist\" or \"post statist\" anarchism as far as i can tell. Anarchists tend to be against what is typically catagorized as the left. The difference between what anarchists have seen as the left and overwhelmingly shunned for over a century (statists), and what the \"post leftists\" tend to be advocating is that the \"post leftists\" want to throw pro-organizationalist anarchists (ie. non-individualist anarchists) into the \"left\" so we can be seen as tainted anarchists, leaving the \"post left\" as some pure anarchism, or \"anarchy.\"
comment by Morpheus
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 04:04 PM CST
Post-leftists need to give a coherent, well thought out, explantion of what _exactly_ they mean by \"the left\" if they expect the rest of us to seriously consider post-leftism.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 04:19 PM CST
I have to say this is possibly the best rebuttal of post-leftism ever put out, and it\'s been more constructive than almost any of the infoshop flame forging - and I direct that at both sides of the debate.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 04:30 PM CST
Only if you toss out Peter\'s right wing baiting...
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 04:33 PM CST
*Some* post-leftists may want to do that, but you can count me out of any program that tries to lump in all anarcho-communists and similar folk into some \"left anarchist\" cabal.
comment by rise
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 04:44 PM CST
Lev Cherney was a Russian anarchist poet who was executed by the Bolsheviks... unless there is another Lev Cherney im not familiar with.
comment by Cong
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 06:10 PM CST
Lev Cherny*

fucking bullshi\'es
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 06:34 PM CST
We\'re not too hot on you either dood. Go roll your d4.

-Sk!
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 06:56 PM CST
A pretty good article.

Some quibbles:

\"Learning from the civil rights struggle, for example, or the strategies pioneered by peasant revolts in the global south, could bring a wealth of grassroots perspectives to bear on the contestations we are part of in our own local contexts. But an anarchism that hopes to \"stand on its own and bow to no other movements\" will be ill equipped to engage in this sort of learning process; indeed it will be unprepared for active solidarity with those movements it consigns to \"the left\".\"

I don\'t see why anarchism needs to \'bow\' to other movements in order to understand them or offer solidarity to them? Additionally, Peter reifies the organization above the individuals within them here. I personally think that much of the post-left critique has clarified our ability to act utilizing self-organization, Jarach\'s critical review of the FAI is a good example. The civil rights struggle does not exist independent of the individuals who struggle; anarchists should focus on practicing solidarity with those individuals instead of their \'movement\'.

Generally I think the mistake McQuinn made was attaching a label to a set of varied critiques coming out of Anarchy: AJODA. Post-left anarchism simply isn\'t unitary, but the critiques that have been produced under its umbrella I think are truly critical.

It\'s a shame that it\'s lost on people like Chuck0 who interprets post-left anarchism as \'holding our own protests\', in other words self-managing the current defeat of the marginalized left.

I\'ll also add that the gaggle of trajectories that post-leftism have produced are effective in constructing a revolutionary movement, but don\'t present any strategy for self-managing society, a task that will inevitably require SOME degree of formalism.

Ultimately, useful exchanges on both fronts.

-Sk!
comment by Brenton
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 07:03 PM CST
I\'m not a fan of social ecology. However, this is a totally reasonable and intelligent critique of post-left anarchists. I don\'t see why anyone would feel the need to become defensive or angry about it. Unfortunately, I do not think post-left people handle criticism or disagreement very well, which is one of the reasons I\'ve become dismissive of this tendency.
comment by Morpheus
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 07:58 PM CST
Can you name a sinlge post-leftist other than you who doesn\'t want to do that? Point to a single article advocating post-leftism which doesn\'t do that?
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 08:19 PM CST
I don\'t need to point to an article, because I know this from talking to them.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 08:22 PM CST
It\'s a shame that it\'s lost on people like Chuck0 who interprets post-left anarchism as \'holding our own protests\', in other words self-managing the current defeat of the marginalized left.

It\'s not lost on me because I got this from Jason McQuinn. Doing our own protests is one way that you put post-leftism into practice. Of course, any kind of protest is not going to appeal to armchair anarchists who prefer to sit at home and play with themselves.
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 08:41 PM CST
Flamebait deleted (personal insult against the webmaster).
comment by rise
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 05 2003 @ 09:01 PM CST
and the insurrectionist claim to being anarcho-communist is dubious at best.
comment by Chuck Morse
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 10:20 AM CST
Hey Chuck0,

That doesn
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 12:06 AM CST
Flamebait deleted.
comment by Joshua Houk
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 12:59 AM CST
Me? Do I count?
comment by Jesse
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 03:07 AM CST
And me.
comment by Chuck Morse
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 08:32 AM CST
Chuck0: No one should care about your private conversations with
comment by Christopher Day
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 09:48 AM CST
Lev was Jason\'s old pseudonym which he abandoned when it was taken up by a Ukrainian anarchist whom Jason thought had a more legit claim on the old poets name. I\'m not blowing anybody\'s cover here. All this was explained in Anarchy when Jason made the switch.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 09:49 AM CST
My conversations with other post-leftists is germane here, if only to refute this one point being made about us. I can\'t acknowledge that post-leftism is much more for these other writers because I\'ve never asked them about that.

You are wrong when you claim that Anarchy magazine has launched a campaign against the social anarchist wing of the anarchist movement. One of the main goals of Anarchy magazine is to provide a critical forums about anarchy and the anarchist movement. They\'ve also criticized primitivism, among other tendencies, and the letters column has included criticism of the various writers for Anarchy magazine. Perhaps if the magazine came out more often, it would be a bit more obvious that the magazine isn\'t launching an attack on social anarchism. Anarchy magazine is engaged in principled criticism and critical thinking about anarchism. Its best to respond by addressing the criticism made and not with conspiracy theories that make wild assumptions about the motives of the magazine\'s editors.
comment by Magic Missile
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 10:25 AM CST
sorry if I offended anyone, I was trying to say that a lot of anarchist theory is sadly very detached from material reality (that includes social anarchism as well). Typically in some places and sometimes there is not a lot difference (in terms of what it translates to action) between a-comms (like me) and some1 claiming an incompatible trend and that is why we are busy so much with these discussions. If we were really to act out on our theories we should have been far away from eachother (like the a-syndicalists busy with the unions and the insurrectionists planning the next cell action etc.). Instead a lot of us are wandering around trying to pick up ideologies in a very remote way (from reading instead of struggling etc.).
I think that explains why there is so much discussion between theories that really have little to discuss if they were both solid and existing.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 10:27 AM CST
I see what you mean, that\'s a good point.

-Sk!
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 10:56 AM CST
Sorry, Chuck, but you are totally wrong here. I\'ve been reading Anarchy magazine since I was a wee anarchist back in the 1980s. Anarchy magazine has consistently been a source of critical thinking about the range of anarchist thinking for almost 20 years now. Of course, there are anarchists out there who think they can go around and have their brand of anarchism go uncriticized. That\'s one of those silly notions we get from the left, which is extremely hostile to intra-movement political criticism. But Anarchy magazine has printed articles and criticism aout all kinds of anarchism.

Your claim that Anarchy Magazine is a critical forum for the anarchist movement is nuts.

Of course my claim isn\'t nuts. Anarchy magazine has provided a critical forum for the anarchist movement for longer than the Internet has been doing that, such as websites like this one. Anarchy has published a range of articles and it\'s letters section has featured lively discussion between different types of anarchists.

Can you name one social anarchist, pro-organization feature article that they have run in the last five years?

The feature articles published by Anarchy magazine are going to eflect the views of the editors, just as the stuff published on Infoshop News reflect the views of our editors. The Anarchy editors have a political stance against the promotion of ideology and forms of social organization that are alienating and domesticating. I happen to agree with them on much of this thinking, but I don\'t see any reason why being anti-organizational is incompatible with being a social anarchist. I kind of see myself as an anti-organizational social anarchist.

Can you name one social anarchist, pro-organization book they have published? Of course you cannot.

I can\'t name one because they haven\'t published any. So what? They haven\'t published any cookbooks either. The books they publish are going to reflect the things that most interest them. But just to shut you up in this line of criticism, I\'ll point out that Jason and I are working on an anthology of anarchist thinking that will include quite a bit of social anarchist and pro-organizational writings.

They are not interested in a debate.

It\'s pretty obvious that they are interested in debate. They publish articles critical of their politics in the letters section. They participate in public debates and online discussions. The articles they publish are part of this debate.

And your claim that Anarchy Magazine is engaging in principled criticism is nuts. Virtually every issue of Anarchy Magazine is awash with ad hominen criticism.

I read every issue and I see a few ad hominim attacks here and there, but they are a minor part of the otherwise excellent articles. What isn\'t principled are the stupid attacks on Anarchy magazine.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 11:00 AM CST
I\'ve read every issue over the past five years and I see very little unprincipled criticism. The unprincipled stuff printed in the pages of Anarchy PALES in comparison to the constant barrge of name-calling and conspiracy-pushing that gets posted to this website on a regular basis. The critics of Anarchy would be more credible if they attacked specific articles or writers instead of just dissing the entire magazine.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 11:10 AM CST
Much of the discussion about these different tendencies goes back for many years, in some cases over a century. People will always talk about different ideas and push certain ones. We bring different experiences and backgrounds to these discussions. It may be that more than one of these theories may work, but for most of them we just don\'t have enough practical experience. Anarcho-syndicalism looks good on paper, but we really have very little experiential knowledge of how it works in practice. And those of us who spend too much time talking about theories might do well to go out and try to put those ideas into practice.
comment by pointpoint
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 11:13 AM CST
Ok so who critiqued indutrial technology? You skip that and go on to the cadre model. Leftists have critiqued industrial technology, but only as something that is environmentally destructive, that is not what the critique of technology is about, it\'s about the disciplined social organization that is required, that subsumes people to the rythms and fucntioning of machine, how it deskills people, exploits us more efficiently, how it is a capitalist project that proles never demanded in the first place. I think this goes along with the concept of the destruction of work.

Soo... have you ever heard of someone by the name of Marx
comment by Chuck Morse
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 11:26 AM CST
Well, I didn
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 12:03 PM CST
Chuck, I would epxect better from you on this issue. Any person can read Anarchy magazine and see that it ISN\'T an \"anarcho-individualist rag.\" What does Situationism or Primitivism have to do with individualism? Those are two topics among many that have been covered in the pages of Anarchy. Yes, the primary editor DOES have an individualist, egoist bias, but the magazine remains a critical forum for the anarchist movement. I know that some anarchists would like to see their tendencies promoted in Anarchy, but I think that Jason wouldn\'t even promote his tendencies in the bald-faced manner that some anarcho-propagandists operate. I personally cringe whenever I come across something in anarchist circles that exists just to promote one anarchist tendency. Writing articles that promote a specific tendency are just going to be read by other people who agree with that tendency. If you want people to pay attention to your ideas, you have to show them how you put them into practice.

Lest any of you get the mistaken impression that I\'m just a cheerleader for Anarchy magazine, I\'ll just say that I\'ve expressed my criticisms of the magazine to Jason on numerous occasions. I\'ve told him that I\'m tired of their tired focus on Murray Bookchin, among other things. Anarchy has also published some crap, including Zerzan\'s rants against Chomsky and Star Trek. But I happen to think that overall, Anarchy magazine is one of the best anarchist magazines being published today, and that Jason McQuinn is one of our best theorists and writers.
comment by rise
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 12:06 PM CST
You\'re kidding, right? Anarchy\'s criticism of primitivism [I read it online, trust me I don\'t support that rag] came off like a Fox News criticism of George Bush. Then they turned around and devoted an entire issue to some of the most pathetic and intellectually impoverished critiques of platformism I\'ve ever seen.

We need good criticism of the social anarchist movement, but not by the individualist wing of the movement, which not only is criticising it coming from the wrong place, but is completely incompetent to do so [and has proven itself as such on countless occasions].
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 12:20 PM CST
It would help if this blizzard would pass, sigh.

-Sk!
comment by Chuck Morse
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 04:47 PM CST
Chuck0: My argument is not that Anarchy has published some shitty articles from time to time. All magazines do that. My grievance is with the very premises of the project itself, which are more coherent--and more regressive--than you concede.

What do primitivism and individualism have in common? They share a basic assumption, which is that society and individuality are antagonistic to one another and irreconcilable. The primitivists argue that social unity can only happen if we abandon the very things that make individuality possible, such as language, art, and time. The individualists, on the other hand, argue that individuality can only occur against society: that society is an impingement, a constriction, a purely negative thing (they
comment by Morpheus
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 04:55 PM CST
Anarchy mag does have a tilt towards post-leftism, primitivism and similar ideas, away from the more \"traditional\" forms of anarchism like syndicalism or platformism. There\'s nothing necessarily wrong with that, I do think a magazine like that has it\'s place in the movement(s). But Anarchy is one of the highest circulating anarchist zines in the country. Partly because of it\'s glossy cover it can sometimes even get into mainstream bookstores, like Borders. Thus it ends up serving as the first contact with anarchist ideas many people have. And most of what they publish is not even remotely geared towards getting non-anarchists interested but is internal movement debate stuff. If I wanted to introduce someone to anarchism I wouldn\'t hand them a whole bunch of criticisms of platformism but that\'s essentially what A:AJODA does. Most of the stuff Anarchy mag publishes should be published in places where is will be read mostly by anarchists, not as it is now where newbies will encounter it as their intro to anarchy.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 05:10 PM CST
All or perhaps 90 percent of the magazine
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 12:36 PM CST
Really? Did you read BOTH issues on primitivism? There was some strong stuff printed there against primitivism, including an article from Jason himself that explained why he wasn\'t a primitivist. But I\'m betting that that article was ignored by the handful of Anarchy-bashers out there who\'ve developed this insane idea that Anarchy is a primitivist magazine.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 05:21 PM CST
Anarchy mag does have a tilt towards post-leftism, primitivism and similar ideas, away from the more \"traditional\" forms of anarchism like syndicalism or platformism.

Yes and no. If you read Jason McQuinn\'s recent articles in the magazine you\'ll discover that he is making some rather traditional arguments about anarchism. Yes, it does tilt towards those ideas because those happen to be of interest to Anarchy\'s editorial board right now. No, it doesn\'t promote syndicalism or platformism. By the way, syndicalism is a traditional form of anarchism, whereas platformism has been an extremely minor tendency like primitivism.

There\'s nothing necessarily wrong with that, I do think a magazine like that has it\'s place in the movement(s). But Anarchy is one of the highest circulating anarchist zines in the country. Partly because of it\'s glossy cover it can sometimes even get into mainstream bookstores, like Borders.

It doesn\'t *sometimes* get into Borders, it has standing orders with the national bookstore chains. This is the result of years of hard work by Jason and the rest of the AJODA crew. If you want to learn a few things about publishing, it would be worth your time to pick Jason\'s brain.

Thus it ends up serving as the first contact with anarchist ideas many people have. And most of what they publish is not even remotely geared towards getting non-anarchists interested but is internal movement debate stuff.

It\'s really too bad that the AJODA-haters totally avoid the positive things that AJODA has done for the *entire* anarchist movement. They have published consistently over 20 years and have introduced many people to anarchist ideas.

No, the magazine isn\'t geared to non-anarchists, yet it sells well on the newstand. This has always puzzled me, but I guess that there are plenty of people out there who really like the focus of the mag.

If I wanted to introduce someone to anarchism I wouldn\'t hand them a whole bunch of criticisms of platformism but that\'s essentially what A:AJODA does.

Neither would I. I wouldn\'t hand them Northeastern Anarchist either. Publishing magazines that apeal to non-anarchists has been one of the anarchist movement\'s big weaknesses (which I hope Practical Anarchy addresses when it goes back into print).

Most of the stuff Anarchy mag publishes should be published in places where is will be read mostly by anarchists, not as it is now where newbies will encounter it as their intro to anarchy.

Yeah, you would think, but people do buy Anarchy off the newstand. There really isn\'t an alternative on the newstand and I\'m afraid the approach that most anarchists would adopt (publish polemical theory crap) would not get more anarcho mags on the newstand.
comment by fruittidurruti
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 06:03 PM CST
I\'d just like to point out that everytime something is posted about actions and events that are practical struggles happening on the ground, like the Toronto hotel workers action with OCAP and Punching Out, people do NOTHING to discuss and debate the strategy that folks are using in these struggles. There aren\'t endless threads following it, discussing actual STRATEGY. Yet, some abstract post leftist/anti-post leftist rant shows up, and YET ONCE AGAIN, sytematically produces over 50 responses in a couple o days.

I think that\'s a problem.
comment by -llowell-
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 06:21 PM CST
going back to your response to my post Chuck, I know you consider yourself \"postleft\" anarchist and i know that there are those of you out there who arn\'t just neo-anarchoindividualists but the reality is you arn\'t the face and propaganda front for this \"post left\" anarchist \"movement\" (for lack of a better word). So even though there are sensible \"post left\" anarchists, your idea of what that means is of little matter since your ideas arn\'t the face of \"post left\" anarchism. It\'s baffling to me why people who arn\'t in agreement with the \"post left\" individualist line call them selves \"post left\" and then spend all this time arguing \"but not like all the books and articles on post left, we are a misterious post left who uses the same name to describe something different.\" It\'s kind of like if I spoke to the public and just called myself a Communist and then acted confused that people assumed I was referring to the Soviet Union or Mao. It\'s unfortunate, but it\'s reality that those who do the propaganda work get to define terms; so untill there is a whole shlew of books describing a differnt idea of \"post left\" it\'s going to continue to be asumed that post left means what the majority of books and essays claim it means: the new individualist (mostly anti-organizationalist) anarchism.
Chuck I respect you and apreciate all the work you do for the anarchist movement (here comes all the no way Chucko dosn\'t do good, he\'s a bla bla bla posts) but i disagree respectfully with your definition and defense of \"post left\" anarchy. Hopefully you know me well enough to know I\'m also not an arm chair anarchist who stays home and plays with his what ever.
comment by -llowell-
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 06:31 PM CST
I can see your point, but i have to disagree with you to. there just isn\'t enough (soy [gmo free])meat to discuss and debate when an action is posted. sometimes there are long threads when people have things to add or different ideas about an action, but the debate over ideas makes more sense.
For example if someone says communist anarchism is archaic and here is why you would probably (and me too) want to respond and get our two cents in. but if there is a post that says this happened at such and such place usually we\'re all just happy to see something that happened.
I know i have posted discussion about actions that have happened but usually discussion around strategy and tactics leads right back into the same argument we have over theory anyway.
ps. just got the new N.E.A., fucking awesome!
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 07:01 PM CST
Good points, as usual. I know I\'m not the public face of post-leftism and that many associate it with the editorial group of Anarchy magazine. This has bothered me for some time, because I think that post-leftism has potential for all anarchists, but that it will be stillborn because of its association with the movement lightening rod that is AJODA.

Here\'s what I\'ll do--after I finish up the layout of Practical Anarchy and get some Infoshop.org business taken care of, I\'ll do some writing to explain my take on post-leftism. Then people can stand what I have to say against the rest of post-leftism, and see if what I\'m arguing has any merit and is any different. I might get blown out of the water because C.A.L. Press has a new book on post-leftism coming out. ;-)
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 07:42 PM CST
First off, Peter\'s criticism of left contributions to the PL critique doesn\'t hold water with me. I don\'t know what he wants PL anarchists to do - grab their ideas out of the air? Of course there are ideas that emerged from leftists, particularly dissident leftists, that have contributed to PL ideas. This isn\'t some major epiphany, and saying so doesn\'t mean much to me. Though Peter would seem to suggest that this is a damning critique, I fail to see why.

But, one point Peter makes that I agree with, and which has attracted much criticism my way from PLers, is particularly the lessons that anarchists need to learn from the civil rights movement, particularly the political role of whiteness in American society. Too many anarchists of all stripes dismissively paint race theory as single issue or identity politics and therefore unworthy of consideration, or even possibly regressive. Ironically, this view strikes me as a very right wing sore thumb sticking out of many anarchists otherwise leftist politics - primarily explained, I think, by the overwhelmingly white composition of American anarchy.

However, I think there are also some right traditions worth learning from and engaging as well, particularly in the US. Failing to understand this critical point in American history has been crippling for American anarchists understanding of their own country, in my opinion, where, Flint rightly alludes to, the left and right, outside of political circles, has little meaning. I do not think we ought to be contributing to the reintroduction of such ideas to these Americans who I think have proceded us in abandoning the idea - and rightly so!

So, despite Peter\'s assertions, I don\'t see pl as a call for anarchist autonomy, as he seems to think. I see it as a commitment to solidarity where deserved and productive rather than the knee-jerk solidarity of obligation which follows from the leftist identification.

For instance, some right groups may be worthy of solidarity despite some political disagreements between us and them. Speaking of painting with broad strokes, most leftists, including many anarchists, have greatly villified and over-simplified conceptions of the right that don\'t hold up to reality. The truth is, many right wingers share many common principles with us, though they may be rooted in religious principles, ethics of personal responsibility and belief in personal property as a guarantor of political and individual rights - none of which I believe to be necessarily oppositional to our principles as anarchists.

That simplification of the right by the left makes sense, though, because the left is, when it comes down to it, in an oppositional relationship with the right in which each is largely defined by its opposition to the other. This strikes me as a dialectical relationship if there ever was one, but not one that leads us towards liberation.

And it is precisely this relationship that I think needs to be questioned and broken down. I am disturbed by Peter\'s characterization of anarchy as a leftist, maybe important, trend because it celebrates precisely what I think anarchists wind up doing way too often, to our detriment: acting as moral conscience for the left, criticizing it but dismissed in the end, largely because it has hitched it\'s cart to the leftist wagon train.

What did Lenin say about anarchists? Something like, one needs them on the first day of the revolution but they must be eliminated on the next. He knew that anarchists spoke a message that broke out of just the left and were important for propaganda and legitimacy purposes, but in the end counter to the aims of the vanguard party of the left.

In my opinion, if anarchists are ever going to be successful in this country, they must recognize the genuinely libertarian tendencies within the right and its influence within both the public at large and our history and be prepared to engage them and build on them in the same critical and co-operative way that we engage with those on the left. A leftist orientation by definition prevents this.

As a real-world example of what I am talking about, I am growing in my appreciation of the way that Phoenix Copwatch has been able to attract and engage libertarians to the organization. Finding common cause with their distrust of the police has drawn them not only into a political dialogue that has seemed fruitful from my perspective (not in all cases of course), but has also placed them into direct action opposition to white supremacy and the state. Clearly, the leftist oppositional view of the right has no way of explaining this phenomenon and would probably seek to put a stop to it.

I should say, just for the record, that while I did participate in PhxCopwatch for two years, I am not currently a member.

As an aside, I think one of the real problems facing anarchy is too much theory, too little practice. I have to say, while the often morbid fascination with a rigidly doctrinaire view of anarchist history of many platformists and such disturbs me, the overwhelmingly theoretical and philosophical nature of many PLers\' politics disturbs me just as much.

In the end, my PL sentiments are as much a plea for more anarchist practice as anything else, and particularly a quest for a practice that reflects the realities of our 21st century political situation.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 07:50 PM CST
Don\'t forget your drafts for an anti-capitalist/anti-authoritarian network, and/or your drafts for an anarchist anti-war/anti-occupation network. If all this comes from you, I\'m certain most informed anarchists will put a deal of consideration into what you propose, not simply because its ChuckO, but because its a credible idea presented by a well networked individual that knows how to spread the word throughout the country.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 08:43 PM CST
Damn! I\'ve got a lot of writing on my plate! And tonight I\'m wasting my time on researching XML for the expanded Infoshop library.

I need more discipline or something.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 10:54 PM CST
I\'ll start on a draft tomorrow. I need to research PGA and I should look at those constructive comments that were posted on that other thread. People who are interested in this can e-mail me comments. I\'ll post the draft here and on the acc-intl list next week.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 06 2003 @ 09:40 PM CST
chuck, to echo HPWombat- if you were to draft a proposal of a national/north american anti-capitalist/anarchists/whatever network, and then circulate it among radical circles of all stripes for input/suggestion, and then recirculate a final proposal for endorsement, i think i we, as a movement, would be moving towards PRACTICE and perhaps using all of this theory-talk to critique and advance ourselves.

as i mentioned in another post on another thread, even if the network fails miserably, at least we would have something concrete on which to base our anarchist critiques about organization and strategy.


comment by Chuck Morse
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, December 07 2003 @ 11:05 AM CST
I don
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, December 07 2003 @ 08:14 PM CST
Flamebait deleted.
comment by Bob Black
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, December 07 2003 @ 09:29 PM CST
This screed might better be titled (echoing its distant inspiration, Lenin), \"\'Left-Wing\' Anarchism, An Infantile Disorder.\" Considering that this Staudenmeier is probably as intelligent and knowledgable a representative of anarcho-leftism as is available (aside from the fact that he is not an anarchist -- more on that later), the essay exhibits the ideological poverty, indeed the desperation of this expiring tendency. If this is the best they can do (and no campus Platformist cretins have done nearly as well), I would say that the leftists who purport to be anarchists are on the ropes.
Some of PS\'s pronouncements are so unwittingly funny that, were he not a leftist (and a German), I might suspect he had a sense of humor. To establish the historical context, for instance, he soberly intones that \"many of the core ideas of post-leftism trace their origins (? can\'t read my notes) to the left traditions.\"
Now I would have thought it was EXPLICITLY OBVIOUS that a tendency called \"post-LEFTISM\" acknowledged its LEFTIST ancestry and therefore PS belabors the self-evident. This is really just an illustration of the truth that PS won\'t admit, that post-leftism is not, as he goes on to insinuate, right wing.
Post-left anarchists have indeed drawn on left sources, such as Camatte\'s critique of organization (today, however, Camatte has developed that critique to go beyond the left)or, in my case for instance, the so-called utopian socialist Charles Fourier or the Marxist William Morris (whose Marxism Engels, however, doubted). But both would be considered anarchists today. Hardly any leftists, and very few anarcho-leftists ever refer to either of these inspirational sources.
I was more than usually amused by PS\'s claim that \"Social Ecology\" (by implication, a strain of leftism) introduced the critique of \"domination\" into anachism. \"Social Ecology\" is a euphemism for \"Murray Bookchin,\" PS\'s guru (he is one of maybe 10 people who still follow the senile Perfect Master) -- this same Bookchin who (as predicted in my 1986 book, \"Anarchy after Leftism\") has now renounced and denounced anarchism. I think PS should clarify his current relation to Bookchin\'s politics before he presumes to lecture anarchists about anarchism. His own anarchist credentials are very much in question. (PS is still lecturing at Bookchin\'s Institute for Social Ecology now and in the coming year.)
I believe that I am, although I\'m not certain of this, the coiner of the phrase \"post-leftism.\" It appears in my 1996 book \"Anarchy after Leftism\" but I think I used it earlier. So maybe I may express opinions on its meaning.
Even somebody who had nothing but the phrase to go on would likely suspect that \"post-leftist anarchy\" does not refer to a single perspective. It represents an acknowledgment of a background and a determination to supersede it. It reflects critique, not creation. Because not getting it wrong is, if not sufficient, necessary for getting it right.
Several of Staudenmeir\'s assertions which, if he is not the moron I assume he isn\'t, must be consciously dishonest relate to his abusive application of the word \"individualist.\" His usage of it is consistent with the Marxist and Leninist usage of it to apply to all anarchists and some dissident socialists. It is inconsistent with anarchist and historical usage. In the anarchist context, an \"individualist\" is a private-property fre market advocate. This is the sense in which HONEST critics of anarchism from George Bernard Shaw to Guy Debord have used the term. Obviously, I am not an \"individualist\" as PS claims, and neither is anyone I would consider a post-leftist anarchist (John Zerzan, Wolfi Landstreicher, Jason McQuinn, etc.) The abuse of the term is just a shabby way to align post-leftists with the right somehow.
It is true that post-leftists have not, to my knowledge, ventured a definition of leftism. On the other hand, neither have their leftist critics like Staudenmeier. If they don\'t need a definition why should we? After all, even without a definition, everybody knows who the leftists are. PS asks, in fake wonderment, does leftism extend from Bukharin to Bookchin? Of COURSE it does you idiot, they\'re both Russian Marxists! Not all leftists are Marxists, but all Marxists -- such as Staudenmeier, I strongly suspect -- are leftists.
PS insists there are only two possibilities, left and right, but offers no argument. It is surely obvious that there ae not only theorists but activists all over the world who are neither left nor right. Just because fascists have made this claim means nothing -- if you don\'t believe anything else the fascists say, why believe this? Fascism is better regarded as an amalgamation of left and right, not as the supersession of the distinction. It is really time to stop thinking in terms of the seating arrangements in the French Assembly in 1789 to define our thinking.


comment by W.B. Reeves
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 12:13 AM CST
Do you really believe that Germans, as an ethnicity, have no sense of humor? Is Bookchin\'s asserted \"senility\" simply your personal opinion or do you possess his medical records? Are you seriously suggesting that Staudenmier \"prove\" that his opinions are his own and not those of Murray Bookchin? A public \"recantation\" perhaps?

Frankly, your arguments here appear to be a not so distant echo of Stalin.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 07:32 AM CST
His arguments seem to echo that anti-work fellow...what\'s that weirdo\'s name...Bob Black, yeah, this seems like something Bob Black would write.

Oh well, I watch Tough Crowd, and this was like anarchist smartass Tough Crowd. Yeah, its (well, not that)funny, Bob Black doesn\'t want to be taken serious anyway. Comparing Bob Black to Stalin for spouting a few things that anyone at a beerhall says to their buddies (unless they are uptight and constipated assholes) just isn\'t credible (and rates rather low on the humor factor). Bob Black writes for both humor and for anarchism, I figured that people would of got that by now.
comment by platformist
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 08:43 AM CST
What\'s a \"campus platformist cretin\"? Is that some kind of sad attempt at baiting from a former lawyer? Not sure which platformists you\'ve been hanging out with, but most that I know are in their mid to later 20s, and have jobs. Sorry to disappoint.
comment by nur
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 11:01 AM CST
how about this little gem, \"Not all leftists are Marxists, but all Marxists -- such as Staudenmeier, I strongly suspect -- are leftists.\" he suspects, w/o any effort to provide evidence. he essentially does what he claims PS does. I can strongly suspect a lot of things but it doesn\'t mean jack if i don\'[t have evidence to back it up. a critique should come from a place of respect and comraderie. postleftism \"reflects critique, not creation.\" so in other worlds Black is saying that his version of postleftism seeks to criticize leftism NOT IN ORDER TO CORRECT IT, NOT IN ORDER TO MOVE IT IN A NEW DIRECTION what almost might seem like CRITICISM THAT IS MERELY DESTRUCTIVE, and then if this criticism succeeds in putting leftism \"on the ropes\", well then Postleftism is also not about creation or a new vision. so where does that lead? nowhere. how long did it take capitalism to perfect itself? how long has socialism under extremely unfavorable circumstances been attempted. has the U.S. and the west aggressively sought to destroy or pervert socialism? you know sometimes change is bumpy and rocky and unpleasant, well then maybe it would be better to just content ourselves with the way things are.
comment by Bullshit Detector
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 12:56 PM CST
Obviously, I am not an \"individualist\" as PS claims, and neither is anyone I would consider a post-leftist anarchist (John Zerzan, Wolfi Landstreicher, Jason McQuinn, etc.)

If anyone has read the interview with Jason McQuinn in \"Passionate and Dangerous: Interviews With Midwest Anarchists\" he states, in no uincertain terms, that he considers himself to be an \"individualist of the Stirnerite tradition\". Sorry Bob.
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 01:27 PM CST
Violation of moderation policy deleted.
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 04:57 PM CST
Rise had his posting privileges suspended this weekend for posting sectarian flamebait, which he has been warned about numerous times in the past. He also violated the moderation policy concerning the posting of complaints to the newswire. We were going to re-institute Rise today, but his temper tantrum today means that he is permanently banned from posting to Infoshop News until he can apologize and agree to follow the guidelines.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 05:04 PM CST
A point of curiosity is -- why do the likes of Staudenmeier and NEFAC WANT to identify themselves as leftists?

To piss off post-leftists.
comment by Bob Black
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 03:28 PM CST
A point of curiosity is -- why do the likes of Staudenmeier and NEFAC WANT to identify themselves as leftists? Leftism is universally discredited. It is now true for the first time that anarchist rejection of the left can be both principled and prudential. We always gave more to the left than we got out of it. We offered up our bodies, they offered us, variously, libels and firing squads. They never accepted you as leftists, they only pretended to on occasions when they wanted to use you, and you fell for it almost every time. You don\'t need them, so why should you even want them? It\'s OUR TURN TO PLAY. We are the only revolutionary game in town. But nobody\'s going to know it if we shamble around in the same old bad company. Open, sharp separation from the left is not only the only principled position, it is a tactical necessity.
Although I am not privy to AJODA editorial policy, I can make a few corrective comments. AJODA is not one of the largest, it is THE largest anarchist magazine in North America. Thus it is comical to hear complaints -- at least once from the same person! -- that AJODA is (1) too esoteric for outreach and yet (2) too popular! When the pseudonymous whiners above publish an anarcho-leftist periodical which outsells AJODA, then they may share their whimperings with us.
Another whine is that AJODA would never publish anything anti-organizational, for instance. That was more than usually maladroit. AJODA devoted an issue to the organization issue, but Jason could not find any organizationalist who would contribute. Ditto for the \"individualism\" issue. On the other hand, I can say from personal experience that no leftist anarchist publication will publish anything critical of leftism.
The idiotic lie that Jason McQuinn is \"primitivist\" is refuted by his critique of primitivism. The other idiotic lie that he is \"individualist\" is refuted by the fact that those he publishes are overwhelmingly, perhaps all collectivists. What this word means to a pseudonymous leftist cretin (probably on campus!) is disclosed by the assertion that the Situationist Raoul Vaneigem is \"essentially an individualist.\" This about an advocate of the worldwide rule of workers\' councils! That being, actually, the unfortunate leftist aspect of Situationism. One begins to wonder who, except Noam Chomsky and Murray Bookchin, is really a leftist.

comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 04:33 PM CST
Infoshop News Moderation Policy

version 0.3 :: February 27, 2003

What is your moderation policy for comments posted after stories?

Grounds for the deletion of posts:
Automatic deletions:
2. Articles posted in the comments section


Do you get it now?
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 04:48 PM CST
Post deleted for moderation policy violations, mostly related to flamebait and name-calling.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 05:44 PM CST
Here goes a response to Anarchy and Bob Black that is relevant to this thread.

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchism/writers/anarcho/movement/AJODAletterPlatform.html
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 07:54 PM CST
As opposed to calling people senile, fake anarchists, and basing personality traits on national heritage?
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 05:17 PM CST
Blah, blah, blah...

For anyone who is interested in reading up on platformism beyond the rants and raves of some sectarian lunatic, feel free to check out:

Anarchism and The Platformist Tradition
http://nefac.northernhacking.org/feature/display/544/index.php


comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 05:20 PM CST
Which is simply just immature.
comment by infoshop moderator
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, December 08 2003 @ 08:25 PM CST
Post deleted for violation of the moderation policy.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 01:23 AM CST
Really well put. What do Anarchists gain by being the direct action-front of the left? Nothing at all, let\'s leave them to their wretched politicking.

-Sk!
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 07:48 AM CST
\"Open, sharp separation from the left is not only the only principled position, it is a tactical necessity.\" I suppose you and the crowd at A:AJODA get to decide what is \"left and therefore gently nudge anarchists towards the right direction. Let me break something to you, no matter what you say some folks are going to think you are a pinko commie bastard. The above essay failed to make substantial critique of the actual set of critiques label post leftism. a real practical critique is that work and yes self-management would be necessary if some industrialism is necessary. now I can\'t say with a l00% certainty that industrialism is necessary for a world of over 6 billion and high concentrations in certain areas which have poor or exhausted resources. essentially I think the burden is on the anti-industrialists to persuasively make the argumetn that we can immediately do without it. or else we are talking aobut self management.
comment by class war anarchist
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 11:52 AM CST
What do Anarchists gain by being the direct action-front of the left?

Um, let\'s see, how about exposure for our ideas, tactics, and methods of organizing among thousands of politicized, yet largely unradicalized, activists.

By all means, let anarchists be the direct action front of the left. The most militant on a picket line. The most radical message at a welfare rights rally. Or an anti-police brutality demo. Or wherever else.

Newsflash: we are currently a fringe political movement, and until we get a whole lot more people into our ranks, we will remain a fringe political movement. If you have problems with liberals or authoritarians (the so-called \"left\") than, rather than abandon areas of struggle as being \"leftist\", shut up and start out-organizing them around some of the same popular issues they are currently able to mobilize people around.

This seems so painfully obvious to anyone who has any sort of strategic sense that is embarrassing that it has to be said in a public forum.


comment by Bob Black
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 01:23 PM CST
Actually, I AM a commie bastard. As was suggested, most (perhaps all) post-leftists are, in traditional parlance, anarcho-communists. I\'ve said so several times. I don\'t go out of my way to use that terminology, but whenever the matter comes up, I accept the identification. But I\'m more reluctant to do so now that campus Platformist cretins have claimed to be -- falsely -- communist anarchists. In fact they are just democrats, which means they are not anarchists, as even Murray Bookchin now admits, and when an outfit like NEFAC manages to be less honest than Murray Bookchin, it is dishonest indeed. Anarchism is hardly mentioned in their statist, Third World nationalist, corporatist Platform.
Let\'s get one thing straight, as Lawrence Jarach demonstrated in AJODA, there is NO \"Platformist tradition.\" Nothing remotely resembling Platformism appeared among anarchists till a few Russian exiles (one a chronic alcoholic, another who was go openly Bolshevik in a few years) concocted it in the mid-1920s. I have already mentioned the overwhelmingly negative international anarchist reaction, even from organizational anarchists like Malatesta (whom NEFAC has the insolence to quote on its website). Platformism sank like a stone until rediscovered a few years ago by some Irish workerist anarchists, who passed it on to the campus left crowd in the U.S. Skirda\'s \"Facing the Enemy\" is goofy to the point of being funny in trying to be the history of a nonexistent phenomenon.
Platformism is the lunatic fringe of anarcho-leftism. It\'s exactly what I\'d like it thought that anarcho-leftism leads to. I couldn\'t ask for a better enemy.
How crass it is for the leftoids, not to answer me here where I can answer back, but to refer people to anarcho-statist links where I am not allowed to be heard, not even when I\'m who\'s being talked about. AJODA has the opposite policy, allowing the lowest of circle-A leftists, like MarC (Marx?) of Lucy Parsons Center/NEFAC, publish lengthy letters (LPC bans my books, a matter discussed here very thoroughly a year a ago). A new AJODA is now going out which contains my most edifying rejoinder to MarxC. (And another one mopping up Bill Brown>)
comment by nil
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 01:38 PM CST
nice ploy, to equate post-leftist anarchy to anti-industrialism. can anyone say \"straw man\"? how about \"guilt by [non-existent] association\"? you are clearly a fraud. or are you suggesting that leftism and industrialism are conjoined twins? if so, this may be the shrewdest analysis of leftism yet. but i doubt that was your intention. oh well.
comment by Duke
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 02:33 PM CST
Good issue except that MaRK edited out three hilarious paragraphs from the introduction and left the boring stuff. Harumph!
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 03:49 PM CST
Yawn.

Hey Bob, you really need to work on some new material. What\'s it been, like 2-3 years and you are still desperately clinging to the same old cliches, slander and strawman arguments.

Now considering us \"leftists\" are \"on the ropes\" and in our death throws, you would think it would not be a top priority for people such as yourself (the great innovator, and bringer of fresh ideas to all that is anarchism!) to spend so much time flinging shit our way. From the perspective of your post-left political determinism, we will all just quietly pass on due to our own irrelevancy and contradictions, right?

As for those of us who identify as platformist, well you have said time and again, we are tiny fringe that apparently have been already discredited long ago by the superstars of the international anarchist movement. So, I am left wondering, why exactly has it became your life mission to engage in public tirade against us? If I didn\'t know any better, I would think you are quite threatened by the growing influence of both platformism specifically, and \"leftist\" ideas in general.

Briefly touching on your weird insults and slander...

1) I am one of a very small handful of people who formed NEFAC. Although I do live in Boston, I don\'t have one drop of Irish blood in my family line (contrary to your weird claims above). My family is Eastern European, mainly Polish (with a small amount of Lithuanian). Many of the other original NEFAC people who helped to shape the federation from the start are French-Canadian from Quebec City.

2) I have never attended college, and indeed, never finished the tenth grade. Most people in NEFAC are workers. There are some students, but they are a minority. I would argue that there are proportionately far less student activists in NEFAC than there are in the general anarchist movement.

3) There is nothing in NEFAC\'s politics that could possibly be misconstrued as statist, third world nationalist, or corporativist. If you feel you can back up this statement with any real sources, by all means try. No one likes a liar.

4) Lawrence Jarach didn\'t demonstrate anything in ADOJA other than he is an idiot, and a dishonest one at that. What constitutes a political tradition in your eyes? You see absolutely no distinct line of politics between the original Dielo Trouda group, the FoD, the French platformists around the FCL and ORA, the British AWA, up through present-day platformist groups around the world (such as NEFAC, WSM, FdCA, ZACF, CUAC, etc)?

Really, do you think the \"Irish workerists\" unearthed a copy of \'The Platform\' in some ancient church ruins or something? If you did a little research (you know, the kind of thing honest academic do), you would know that folks in Ireland were influenced by earlier British groups like the ORA/AWA who were distributing English copies of \'The Platform\' in the 1970s, long before the WSM was founded. Where did this people get their hands on this document to translate it into English? France. Yep, there were French groups influenced by platformism going back to the 1940s. Go figure. Is any of this starting to resemble a political tradition yet?

5) I don\'t care what you write about me in ADOJA. I am sure you will just embarass yourself, so go for it. Maybe you can make some more ethnic stereotypes about my Irish heritage. Ha, ha...











comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 09 2003 @ 06:27 PM CST
if a person rejects completely work and organization, then obviously industrialism is also out of the question. Moreover postleftists do have a critique of industrialism, such as Sasha K and Wolfi Landstreicher. These are all good critiques: the critique of work, organization, and industrialism. They all make perfect sense, however, industrialism is something that must be continued for some time to come if mass die off is not to occur. Well, if industrialism continues then all those old fashioned lame workerist ideas and tactics become relevant. Self-management, unalienated labor. Let me say that Black is an excellant writer his \"abolition of work\" is brilliant, but, he and other postleftists sometimes seem like answermen and for a movement which seeks to empower individuals that is a problem. Campus cretinous platformists is a disrespectful way of approaching those with which you disagree. Anarchy is not about or should not be about your I.Q. or any other measure of visible superficial quality. Anarchy is, in my view, about community and freedom.
comment by HPWombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 07:59 AM CST
\'Really, do you think the \"Irish workerists\" unearthed a copy of \'The Platform\' in some ancient church ruins or something?\'

Dungeon Master: You are traveling through the hills of the Green Leprechaun. The hills seem to roll on forever. The grass on the hills make it seem as if Emeralds fell from the sky and blessed this area. As you continue your walk, a building off in the distance can be seen. It is a squat building with the cross of the great martyr on top of it. The ancient stories of the God of Vengence striking down his only son hop to your mind, but so does the stories of water magically being turned into wine. You approach the building of the great martyr in an anxious hurry for a drink of this blessed wine. The door stands tall, and creaks loudly when you open it. You look inside and see the book of the great martyr burned, perhaps weeks, if not months ago, and another ancient text sits in the book of the great martyrs place. You walk up closer, seeing that no wine is in this building (probably drank by those that placed this document you are approaching). You read the title. It says \'Organisational Platform of the Libertarian Communists\'. After paging through it, you realize that this is indeed a magical book, capable of creating great wars. That is when you are enveloped in its power, and you have no other desire but to organize others to follow this great document. You leave the building of the great martyr in a hurry, hoping to run across anyone that will listen to you and read this document, then you are savagely beat to death by Orcs.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, December 11 2003 @ 06:10 PM CST
Got the new AJODA\'s in at the Lucy Parsons Center today. Man, you were right Bob, that letter is, uh, quite a doozy. It was probably one of the more pathetic things I have seen put to print in quite some time! It was hard to not picture you throwing some kind of infantile temper-tantrum while writing it. Indeed, it reads about as factually accurate as your average temper-tantrum.

Have you just given up on fact-checking altogether in your old age?

Who said the Lucy Parsons Center has only 5% anarchist material? Anyone who has ever visited our bookshop would know this is total bullshit, and that you are a complete liar. You have never been to our bookstore since I have worked here (since 1996), so why would you think you are in some kind of position to make a statement on our stock?

In case you were wondering, as far as I know, you are the only author banned from the store. It would probably be easy enough to over-turn this ban, but since most of the current members in the LPC collective have probably never even heard of you, there is no rush to do so. I am certainly not going to initiate it (for the record, far from being personally involved in banning your books - another lie - I abstained from the vote when it took place).

In case you missed that last part, I said the reason the ban remains is because most current collective members HAVE NEVER HEARD OF YOU. That would be because you are apparently NOT ESPECIALLY RELEVANT. A wash-up. A has-been. You get the point. I assume this is not isolated to Boston, because I often see you books discounted elsewhere, which leads to believe they have been remaindered. You know why people remainder books, right? It\'s because they sell poorly. Must really hurt inside, huh?

What other lies to dispel? Well, there is hardly some NEFAC cabal controlling the LPC. This is another lie, coupled with complete fantasy. Running a bookstore is hard, often unrewarding work. It is currently done by about two dozen people (a small minority of which also happens to work with NEFAC). What exactly would be gained by ensuring NEFAC-dominance over the LPC? All that work day in/day out so we can ensure that our magazine can be displayed a little more prominantly on the shelves? Are you serious? I worked at the LPC long before NEFAC formed, as did most collective members who also now happen to be in NEFAC.

And who ever said we were unaccountable to the anarchist movement? You came up with this on your own. Another lie.

A majority of our stock is black nationalist, Third World national, Maoist, liberal feminist, etc? News to me. Sounds kinda like your full of shit (Re: lying). And what exactly do we have from Bob Avaikian other than the two copies of the Revolutionary Worker that get dropped off each week and don\'t sell? Nothing. Liar.

Brazen fund-raising appeals to anarchists? Well, a couple of anarchist websites and email lists got a copy of our fundraising solicitation, as did dozens of other non-anarchist sites and lists, and also the thousands of people on our mailing list. I think even AJODA was nice enough to print it. That Jason McQuinn is a nice guy. He doesn\'t tend to lie either. I like him.

In closing, no one has ever said the Lucy Parsons Center was an anarchist bookstore. If you were under that impression, that\'s your problem. We are a non-sectarian, independent, radical leftwing bookstore that happens to be run by anarchists. A brief check of our website (http://www.tao.ca/~lucyparsons) would\'ve clued even the slowest among us of that fact.

Okay, hope you come up with some better material to hit us with next time. Until then, fuck off!
comment by nil
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, December 12 2003 @ 04:11 PM CST
you are doing what is called a strawman argument: who exactly has called for a complete rejection of work (and what do mean by work? alienated and compulsory labor, as written about in \"abolition of work\" or the scientific fundamentalist definition of \"a transfer of energy\"?) and organization? having a critique is not necessarily the same thing as rejecting the thing being critiqued--unless you live in some ideal world of dualistic polarity. you are correct that many (but almost certainly not all) postleftists have critiques of work, organization and industrialism. so do leftists. so do those on the right. what\'s your point? all it seems like to me is that you are using such a strawman argument to try to show that the postleft discussion is contradictory. what discussion isn\'t? this is just a smoke screen, like your unprovable assertion about some kind of \"mass die off.\" if i may indulge in a bit of \"guilt by association\" myself, let me remind you that the quickest dismissal of pro-statists to the anti-statist critique is that \"people would run around killing each other if there were no state to keep the peace.\" your outright rejection (even perhaps a knee-jerk reaction) of the possibility of rejecting \"industrialism\" (which, since you haven\'t said what you mean my that, is just another idealized concept) makes you sound just like anyone who\'s afraid of the disappearance of the state. that old sentimental humanism comes out: \"people will die if we don\'t do X or Y or Z.\" this is the oldest excuse for maintaining the status quo that there is. if you claim any affinity with anarchism, you need--at the very least--to reexamine you allegiance to such deep-seated ideological justifications.
comment by Bob Black
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, December 13 2003 @ 08:41 PM CST
I\'ll be brief. The main source of my knowledge of the Lucy Parsons Center and NEFAC is -- the debate which took place here a year ago when LPC was soliciting anarchists for money and somebody (not me) asked how anarchist Lucy Parsons was if it banned the books of an anarchist like myself. The main spokesman for LPC was MaRK who reported he was the only member of the LPC collective who was there in 1996 when my books were banned. As is obvious, he\'s never had a problem with that. In the course of the argument information came out about how overwhelmingly statist/Marxist/Third World nationalist LPC actually was. LPC spokesmen asserted that their store was not anarchist, it was a service center for the local left. I only reported what the LPC leftists said here. As for NEFAC, which in the Boston context is difficult to distinguish from LPC, just read the Platform of the Platformist -- you will be halfway through it before \"anarchist\" is even mentioned. I would be happy to provide a \"Critique of the NEFAC Program\" if a NEFAC publication guarantees in advance to publish it.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 12:13 PM CST
LPC spokesmen asserted that their store was not anarchist, it was a service center for the local left. I only reported what the LPC leftists said here.

Once again for the slow-wits: the Lucy Parsons Center has never, ever claimed to be an exclusively anarchist bookstore (despite the fact that we have more anarchist books and publications in stock than any anarchist bookshop in the English-speaking world!). Check our website. Really. It\'s all right there.

I am hardly the main spokesperson for the LPC. I just happen to be one of the few who tool around on this website from time to time.

No one ever said our book stock was \"overwhelmingly statist/Marxist/Third World nationalist\". You made that up completely. I said we carried a VARIETY of literature from DIVERSE sections of the left, which yes, includes SOME statist/Marxist/Third World nationalist titles. So what? We probably don\'t have anymore of this material than, say Left Bank Books (Seattle) or Librarie Alternative (Montreal).

How is LPC difficult to distinguish from NEFAC? One is a independent radical bookstore, the other is a political organization. There are also a number of anarchists from synthesis groups like BAAM! and the Jamaica Plain Anarchist Group, as well as Food Not Bombs, the IWW, South End Press, etc. None of these people have any difficulty disguishing the LPC from NEFAC... but what do they know, they only work here.

As for publishing your writings in the NEA... fat chance. Go publish your crap in Anarchy.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, December 16 2003 @ 08:54 PM CST
MaRK makes the typical mistake of an organizationalist in thinking that a person who is not part of the editorial decision making body of Anarchy magazine (Bob) can \"publish [his] crap\" there. I\'m sure that Anarchy magazine\'s editor(s) don\'t publish Bob\'s letters because he has some kind of power over them--unlike the gangsters of NEFAC, who seem to have an uncanny ability to distance themselves from any article that is questioned by other anarchists, by saying things like \"but that article was only written by one person in the organization. It doesn\'t reflect the views of the organization as a whole.\" From an outfit that yearns for ideological and tactical unity (read conformity), that rings far too hollow. Yet Anarchy magazine is singled out as a monolithic entity with a will of its own, even though there are clearly contradictory essays in it all the time. MaRK must think everyone who reads this board is as stupid as he thinks we are. Sorry, dude, there are some folks here who are wise to your deluded fantasies.
comment by MaRK
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, December 18 2003 @ 04:24 PM CST
What a weird comment (although unsigned, it reeks of Bob Black).

Who said Bob was on the Anarchy editorial board, or he has some kind of power over them? I certainly didn\'t. They do however happen to be one of the few publications that does actually publish his books and essays, so they must have some interest in his ideas. Given this fact, I would think this would be the most likely venue for Bob Black to publish some tired diatribe against NEFAC. Or maybe not, I don\'t know, or fucking care either way.

I don\'t like most of what runs in Anarchy, but I respect the publication itself. Who ever said they were a monolithic entity? I definitely did not. I mentioned the magazine once, in a six word sentence. Perhaps it is your own deluded fantasies that somehow construed this web of unfounded accusations out of a six word sentence...

I acknowledge the fact that AJODA publish some diversity of thought in their pages, while still keeping a general \'post-leftist\' editoral line. Same goes with the Northeastern Anarchist. We publish a diversity of thought within a general class struggle/anarcho-communist editorial line. Not too hard a concept to grasp, I would think. Especially because it is spelled out in plain English in every issue.

If NEFAC had to federally ratify everything that went into the NEA, we would probably get one issue out every decade or so.

How does having essays representing the views of individual authors in a MAGAZINE ring hollow in light of NEFAC\'s emphasis on tactical and theoretical unity in the ORGANIZATION. We have magazines to explore ideas and raise debate, not lay down a political line. We have POSITION PAPERS, a CONSTITUTION, and a binding statement of politics in our AIMS AND PRINCIPLES as a guide for our activity (political line, whatever you wanna call it). These are federally ratified documents. They are different from theory/strategy magazines.
Do you understand the difference? I don\'t know how to explain this any more simply other than using lettered children\'s blocks or something.

comment by Pat Murtagh
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, February 01 2004 @ 06:54 PM CST
The second from last post was definitely NOT from Bob Black. As another \"old wash-up\" (and happy to be one unlike Black) who has watched Black\'s career for over 30 years I can attest that he has a certain writing style that he could NEVER disguise, just like his \"personal style\". You are incredibly lucky that he has never visited your bookstore. Unless, of course, you enjoy minor vandalism and harassment carried out via ratting to law enforcement agencies.
By the way MaRK I love you. I\'ve been watching Black since before you were born, and I\'ve rarely seen such an effective putdown of his psychopathology. Should I ever despair of the anarchist assertion that criminals and the congenitally cruel be handled WITHOUT the use of prisons then I merely have to look at the MAJORITY response to Black over the years, not that of another person discussed above who, whatever his other merits, deserves to go down as one of the most fundamentally flawed judges of character in human history-and not just because of Black.