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Jason McQuinn - Post-Left Anarchy: Leaving the Left Behind

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Post-Left Anarchy: Leaving the Left Behind



Prologue to Post-Left Anarchy



It is now nearly a decade and a half since the fall of the Berlin Wall. It is seven years since Bob Black first sent me the manuscript for his book, Anarchy after Leftism, published in 1997. It's over four years since I asked Anarchy magazine Contributing Editors to participate in a discussion of “post-left anarchy” which ultimately appeared in the Fall/Winter 1999-2000 issue of the magazine (#48). And it's also one year since I first wrote and published “Post-Left Anarchy: Rejecting the Reification of Revolt,” which appeared in the Fall/Winter 2002-2003 issue (#54) of Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed.

Aside from creating a hot new topic for debate in anarchist and leftist periodicals, web sites and e-mail lists, one can legitimately ask what has been accomplished by introducing the term and the debate to the anarchist, and more generally radical, milieu? In response I'd say that the reaction continues to grow, and the promise of post-left anarchy primarily lies in what appears to be a continually brightening future.

One of the most troubling problems of the contemporary anarchist milieu has been the frequent fixation on attempts to recreate the struggles of the past as though nothing significant has changed since 1919, 1936, or at best 1968. Partly this is a function of the long-prevalent anti-intellectualism amongst many anarchists. Partly it's a result of the historical eclipse of the anarchist movement following the victory of Bolshevik state communism and the (self‑) defeat of the Spanish Revolution. And partly it is because the vast majority of the most important anarchist theorists—like Godwin, Stirner, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, and Malatesta—come from the nineteenth century and early twentieth century. The void in the development of anarchist theory since the rebirth of the milieu in the 1960s has yet to be filled by any adequate new formulation of theory and practice powerful enough to end the impasse and catch the imaginations of the majority of contemporary anarchists in a similar manner to Bakunin's or Kropotkin's formulations in the nineteenth century.

Since the 1960s the originally minuscule—but since that time, ever-growing—anarchist milieu has been influenced (at least in passing) by the Civil Rights Movement, Paul Goodman, SDS, the Yippies, the anti-Vietnam War movement, Fred Woodworth, the Marxist New Left, the Situationist International, Sam Dolgoff and Murray Bookchin, the single-issue movements (anti-racist, feminist, anti-nuclear, anti-imperialist, environmental/ecological, animal rights, etc.), Noam Chomsky, Freddie Perlman, George Bradford/David Watson, Bob Black, Hakim Bey, Earth First! and Deep Ecology, neo-Paganism and New Ageism, the anti-globalization movement, and many others. Yet these various influences over the last forty years, both non-anarchist and anarchist alike, have failed to bring to the fore any inspiring new synthesis of critical and practical theory. A few anarchists, most notably Murray Bookchin and the Love & Rage project, have tried and failed miserably in attempting to meld the extremely diverse and idiosyncratic anarchist milieu into a genuinely new movement with a commonly-held theory. I would argue that in our current situation this is a project guaranteed to fail no matter who attempts it.

The alternative argued for by the post-left anarchist synthesis is still being created. It cannot be claimed by any single theorist or activist because it's a project that was in the air long before it started becoming a concrete set of proposals, texts and interventions. Those seeking to promote the synthesis have been primarily influenced by both the classical anarchist movement up to the Spanish Revolution on the one hand, and several of the most promising critiques and modes of intervention developed since the 60s. The most important critiques involved include those of everyday life and the spectacle, of ideology and morality, of industrial technology, of work and of civilization. Modes of intervention focus on the concrete deployment of direct action in all facets of life. Rather than aiming at the construction of institutional or bureaucratic structures, these interventions aim at maximal critical effectiveness with minimal compromise in constantly changing networks of action.

Clearly these new critiques and modes of intervention are largely incompatible with both the old left of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries and most of the New Left of the 60s and 70s. And just as clearly they are engaging a growing number of anarchists who gravitate to them because they seem to be much more congruent with the global situation we find ourselves in today than the old theories and tactics of leftism. If anarchism doesn't change to address the lived realities of the twenty-first century—by leaving the outmoded politics and organizational fetishism of leftism behind—its relevance will dissipate and the opportunities for radical contestation now so apparent will slowly vanish. Post-left anarchy is most simply a rubric through which many thoughtful contemporary anarchists would like to see the most vital of the new critiques and modes of intervention coalesce in an increasingly coherent and effective movement, which genuinely promotes unity in diversity, the complete autonomy of individuals and local groups in struggle, and the organic growth of levels of organization which don't hold back our collective energies, spontaneity and creativity.

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Jason McQuinn - Post-Left Anarchy: Leaving the Left Behind | 41 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
comment by Robin Banks
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, January 31 2006 @ 06:04 PM CST
I realize this article was posted years ago, but I just now read it. Can someone please better explain what the author means by "reification of revolt?"
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 09:45 AM CST
H\'mm this is a lot more thoughtful then the other post anarchist writings I\'ve seen and perhaps deserves a more thought out response when I have time. I like the explicit rejection it contains of the \'bright, shiny, new\' syndrome that has been all too common a feature of post-anarchist arguments. That is the argument that anarchism is wrong because it is OLD and therefore BORING. Likewise the article avoids the juvinile name-calling \'your really a leninist\' etc that has typified post anarchism.

The major problems remains though that post-anarchism is no more then a critique of anarchism and \'leftism\' rather then an alternative method of overthrowing capitalism. I guess this essay suggests that such an alternative method needs to be created but its very hard to see how this can be done without repeating the compromises it rails against.

The issue of individual V mass organisation for instance is hardly a new one for anarchism. So simply restating it as the essay does gets us nowhere. At least the historic tradition represents attempts to overcome this contradiction through the creation of mass organisation compatable with anarchism, eg http://anarchism.ws/platform.html

Anyway if I can steal some time I\'ll put up a more thought out response
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 10:24 AM CST
Andrew: This is about \"post-leftism,\" not \"post-anarchism.\" Perhaps you\'ve been reading those new articles on post-anarchism and transcribed the terms?
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 10:57 AM CST
No, as I\'ve argued before an ideology that bases itself on attacks on the historic/existing anarchists movement is best described as post-anarchist. It claims to be in advance of anarchism as it has and now exists, hence POST-anarchist. This isn\'t necessarly an insult and if anything ties into the rather obvious post-modernist base of what is being said.

\'Post leftism\' is a very general term as every anarchist from the time of the split in the 1st international was \'post leftist\' in the sense that it is being used (marxist concepts of mass organisation). I know that there is probably an intention of \'guilt by association\' behind the use of this label for what is really post-anarchism but I choose to reject that.

I\'m also somewhat aware of the stuff that chooses to go under the label \'post anarchist\' and it does seem to come from a very similar place. If you think it is very different maybe I should call this variation neo-anarachism or something similar.

BTW for those interested in the history of these discussions I\'ve constructed an archive of links to the various articles and replies to the post-anarchist debate on infoshop. Its at http://anarchism.ws/postleft.html
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 07:14 PM CST
There may be a crossover for some writers, but not for all of us. I find the post-leftist critique to be valuable, but I have no interest in post-anarchism of any kind. I also don\'t agree with everything Jason McQuinn or Hakim Bey writes. But I think the important thing about post-leftism is that it can help us evaluate our politics and process and tactics.
comment by Morpheus
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 08:34 PM CST
\"Post-Anarchism\" refers to anarcho-postmodernism. Postmodernism is a metaphysical philosophy which basically rejects _all_ universals and takes an extreme anti-realist and anti-materialist position. Postmodernists are famous for making things more confusing then they need to be. Most postmodernists are not anarchists, but a minority are.

Post-Leftism is a vague term that can refer to several different things. It can refer to the philosophy advocated by Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed & folks like Jason McQuinn. This includes positions like anti-organizationalism, anti-technology, anti-\"workerism\" and anti-ideology. Others use it to refer to other philosophies. Chuck0 basically uses it in a broad sense to refer to any anarchist who concieves of themselves as being outside the traditional left-right spectrum - ie. is equally opposed to both the right & the left. There are multiple \"post-leftisms.\"
comment by Hakim
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 01:52 PM CST
Actually Hakim Bey, who is routinely published in Anarchy Magazine, was the first one to use the term \"post-anarchism\" long before the current batch of writers in his 1987 essay \"post-anarchism anarchy\" which, if you read it, is making many of the same arguments made by the post-left anarchists against \"ideological anarchism\" and for \"anarchy\" instead, so there may be more of a crossover than you imply Chuck 0, though it certainly is not cut and dry; also, like the post-left anarchism argued for by McQuinn, most of postanarchism\'s main theorists today such as Koch, May and Newman, see Stirner as the most important precursor to what is coming into being in the present.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 05:09 PM CST
i guess it\'s beyond the dogmatic and limited imagination of comrade flood to acknowledge that calling someone (or a tendency) by a term that they haven\'t chosen for themselves is AUTHORITARIAN...

but i have to say this: if anarchism in the 21st century is to be relegated to the rigidified and stodgy caricature promoted by comrade andrew and the rest of the platformist gang, then i, for one, will gladly accept the label \"post-anarchist.\" why should i have to constantly explain to curious potential allies that, no i\'m not one of THOSE anarchists...

fortunately for now that\'s not the case, and those of us who are truly interested in expanding the edges (and relevance to \"normal people\") of anarchic theory and practice are content to know that comrade flood (for all his huge volume of contributions) has little to say to anyone not already in his clique.

comment by Chekov
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 09:41 PM CST
Firstly, thanks morpheus for your description of \'post-anarchism\'. If it does mean what you describe, then I can\'t see how it can possibly have anything to do with anarchism, since individual freedom and equality are surely universal values that we would hold up. Personally, beyond its rather obvious observation that we all view the world through culturally-tinted glasses, I think that post-modernism is a load of academic crap designed to exclude the non-enlightened from the discourse. I\'ve never come across anything worth saying that can\'t be said in simple terms.

Then, since apparently Morpheus\'s description of post-leftism doesn\'t hold up, I\'ll deal with the last response. It has always seemed to me that the term \'left\' was one that holds many different meanings to different people. Personally I think the most widespread meaning of the term refers to where one sits on the question of the division of wealth. The more that you think it should be divided equally, the further to the left you sit. According to that definition I\'d consider myself on the left. I\'m sure that there are other definitions of the term that you could come up with according to which I\'d consider myself to be outside the left, although if they aren\'t definitions that are in common usage, I don\'t see the point. Are there other widely held meanings of the term?

Then, you say that left anarchists \"share more assumptions concerning organizational forms, ideological conformity, the role of work (among other topics) with authoritarian leftists than they do with other anarchist communists\" - what are these assumptions? And finally, I think that getting rid of the ruling class would be inevitably a \"a total break with the way capitalism has organized the world\", whether we like it or not, so I don\'t see the distinction and really can\'t imagine how you could have \"the current set up without bosses and landlords\" (I assume you also include the rest of the ruling class like politicians) and can\'t imagine any anarchists advocating this. Please explain.
comment by Chekov
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 05:50 PM CST
calling someone by a name that they haven\'t chosen for themselves is not authoritarian - in many cases it\'s just honesty. For example, the Neo-Nazi British Nationalist Party have undergone a recent makeover. They now claim to be a democratic nationalist outfit. I still call them fascists because that\'s what they are, despite the fact that they don\'t like being called fascists (it\'s not too good for getting votes you see). When coming up with descriptive terms to apply to a thing, all that we can do is to honestly try to assess what the thing is and choose the term that we feel most accurately fits. There is nothing authoritarian about that. If somebody decides that they are a horse, I\'m still going to refer to them as a person.

For all the abuse that gets heaped upon platformists here, I still think that yez are mainly charging at windmills. As I see it, all that platformism really says is that we should be as organised as possible, it places no limits on our inventiveness, creativity or imagination. Concepts like collective responsibility are, as far as I know (correct me if I\'m wrong), universally accepted principles. Maybe if some of ye could see the types of things that we are up to on the ground, you\'d have a more balanced view.

As for post-leftism and post-anarchism, despite reading a fair amount of the literature, I still don\'t have the foggiest idea of what the difference is. I also don\'t have any clue what they amount to. I am fairly sure that they are against formal organisations, although I could be wrong, but don\'t have any idea of what they are for. Sure they\'re for creativity, unleashing the power of spontaneity and all that, but who isn\'t? Beyond these platitudes, I really don\'t have any idea of what these theories propose. Perhaps somebody can enlighten me (and since I\'m allergic to the phraseology of post-modernism and critical theory, hopefully in small words!).
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 06:34 PM CST
I just bring this up because post-leftism is not the post-anarchism that is associated with post-structuralism and post-modernism. It doesn\'t help to change the name of something if we hope to discuss the ideas being put forward.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 08:36 PM CST
it\'s one thing to label your clear enemy. i have no problem calling the newly remade NP \"fascist,\" since their pedigree is obvious to anyone bothering to investigate. they have only tried to alter the window dressing of their loathsome ideology. it\'s quite another to label your supposed allies in a way that is meant to dismiss and denigrate. when i call someone who promotes the platform a platformist, for example, that is a neutral label; they have chosen it for themselves, and i\'m happy to acknowledge the accuracy of it. it would be unfair, inaccurate, AND authoritarian to call them \"anarcho-bolsheviks\" (even though there were plenty of anarchists who did that back when the platform was first published). when comrade flood calls post-left anarchists \"post-anarchists\" he\'s not allowing post-left anarchists the ability to put themselves within anarchist history. he is disallowing them the ability to identify with a political philosophy that (as he himself admits) contains a heathly dose of suspicion for certain kinds of organizing. that there are some people in cyberspace who call themselves \"post-anarchists\" is true, but i don\'t know that they also identify as post-left anarchists. i would think not.

seems to me that one of the propositions of post-left anarchist discussions is that left anarchists (those identified with syndicalism and certain styles of communism) share more assumptions concerning organizational forms, ideological conformity, the role of work (among other topics) with authoritarian leftists than they do with other anarchist communists (and certainly with individualists). and that it is precisely in those areas that left anarchists doom themselves to irrelevance. it is a given that there has been a tension among anarchists historically between the individual and the group; it is a given that there has been a tension between spontaneity and formal organization; it is a given that there has been a tension between those who want the current set-up without bosses and landlords and those who would prefer a total break with the way capitalism has organized the world. it\'s not even a question of reform versus revolution--it\'s about what \"revolution\" means, what it looks like, what its characteristics are (or might be, or can be). post-left anarchists seem to be more willing than left anarchists to dispense with the kinds of projects that have led us into dead ends and defeat.

hope those words were small enough. i have probably not answered half the questions you might have, but hopefully i have helped you to understand a bit of what i understand as post-left anarchism.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 09:15 PM CST
Post-leftism is not about anti-organizationalism, anti-technology, and anti-\"workerism.\" Please read what post-leftism writers are writing about instead of conflating different ideas based on your perceived association between writers.
comment by post-French post-theorist
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 10:56 PM CST
Postmodernism is a metaphysical philosophy

And here I thought that postmodern philosphy had always framed itself as moving beyond traditional Western metaphysics! So much for Derrida\'s \"rupture and redoubling,\" Morpheus has provided us with the real definition of \"postmodern philosophy.\"
comment by Alcoholocaust
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, November 12 2003 @ 11:37 PM CST
I have a book thats been amorously stewing in my mind on this and many parallel topics. It\'s sort of a \"History of Solutions\", I guess, to swipe a throwaway foucault phrase that struck a cord with me.

Not to toss humility to the wind, but I\'m convinced a unified theory of ideologies can be reached, rooted in a multivalent utopian society that doesn\'t require a new totality to own everything. Procrastination will probably kill this idea, it\'s been the death of many of my projects. This one is increasingly important to me though, so I\'d ideally like to at least get some notecards down before I burn out on politics again.
So, Hopefully before I die...

I feel I need to learn a great deal more before I attempt to work out the specifics of this project. The emptiness left after my day jobs is invariably filled with drugs or comfort in others, as opposed to the education I had been using to fill it during my youth. So I haven\'t been getting a lot done lately.

The name of the book is \"Utopiates\", if anybody steals this name I\'ll thereupon have to send them one of their moms toes, just so they know I mean business.

Email me if you want to talk about it. I really need to talk about it with likeminded people because I know of no other way to iron out the contradictions. I\'d take a dialectical pro/con
approach, but my conflicting personalities really hate eachother lately, so I\'d wind up sabotaging the whole thing before it gets off the ground.

Suicide_Green@hotmail.com
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 01:07 AM CST
A \"utopirate\" might steal your \"utopiate\", or your \"utopia\" for that matter. Watch out. Shiver me timbers.
comment by shutthefuckup.
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 02:59 AM CST
NO-ONE here seems to refer to the only time the anarchists won an election.
In Barcelona, just before the civil war `36, the anarchists won an election, refused to take power, and shut down the city governance.

They told the population that there were no rules, just be kind to each other.

IT WORKED, everyone just carried on, EXCEPT, for the lawyers and judges, who got real hungry, the stock-owners and capitalists left town and the DOCTORS? got pissed off and said they were better than anyone else and wanted MORE!

Then along came franco, and shut them down.

Any person who reccomends a system, usually sees themselves as an operator of the system, NO SYSTEMS, only communities.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 03:38 AM CST
well that was rather insane of you.
comment by Ooooooh
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 04:09 AM CST
Blum, Richard and Associates.
Utopiates: The Use and users of LSD 25.
New York: Atherton Press. (1964)

comment by pr
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 04:31 AM CST
As the left started out with French political representatives sitting on the left and then moved on through the extreme statism of the Stalin era we really need to show daylight between ourselves and all leftists don\'t we?
Left authoritarians killed more last century in worse ways than right authoritarians.
What\'s left of the Left seem\'s to need us more than we need them too,I share comrade McQuinn\'s optimism about a strong universal post left anarchism.I don\'t actually believe anarchism at it\'s heart was ever really \'left\' anyway.

\"\'Left\'?...we don\' need no steenkin\' \'Left\'!\"

Long live anarchism.
comment by Alcoholocaust
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 05:37 AM CST
Many Anarchists broadened their leftism and saw Anarchism as a logical extention. Even Anarchists that didn\'t enter from the left understand that a great deal of leftist ideals interscede with our own. Many Anarchists never leave the left, either as agitable rabblerousers or as Leftism\'s conscience.
But as for value of leftism itself, Even with radical ideals, its all just a manner of stratifying what is \'good idea, bad idea\' and holding it in place. This is where morals come from, being moral is the act of adhering to somebody elses ethics; often millenia old.

Or, to take a page from my personal ethical treatise, nothing can even be construed as \"wrong\" unless it harms somebody else. That doesn\'t mean it necessarily is, it may be fully justifiable, but therein lies the starting grounds for consideration.

therefor, helpful vs. harmful.

The right and the left need their analogies, the right and left are anachronistic analogies in the first place. Politics is a straight line with a center thats antiquated to whatever the mainstream give and take has arrived at, mediocrity without the fringe extremes. So we have this tug of war where one side wants one thing, another side wants the other thing, and they manage to balance eachother out evenly so that nobody gets the world they want to live in.

Whats right and whats left simply isn\'t a rewarding way of approaching a complicated world. You, in taking an ethical stand, are rewarded with a token enemy. These opposing factions demonize the others viewpoints to a degree that simply leaves no grounds for rational discourse, because most of the time they\'re arguing against the characiture that they\'ve concocted to fight against. \"I\'d like to raise the minimum wage, he\'d like to dump toxic waste into the coral reefs.\"
Look at the abortion rift, they\'re not pro-choice, they\'re anti-life. Whereas those that would prefer to be coined \'pro-life\' are anti-choice. Its such a rigid contrariety that they become impossible to deal with, they can\'t fathom treating what can only be the enemy as another person. I grew up as a fundementalist christian, I have changed, there are innumerable things I would like to share with other people but they\'ll stratify me as part of the opposition and no discourse is possible. Human beings are royally fucked up. Santa Clause deems whether you have been \'naughty\' or \'nice\' and you adhere to the objective standard of Leftism.

I applaud leftism, I\'ve taken great strides to understand its roots and I marvel at what it has achieved. But I\'m disecting information and acting under my own accord, I no longer have time to wonder if it meshes with Leftism.
comment by Alcoholocaust
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 06:23 AM CST
Oh well. I don\'t imagine they\'ll sue me after such a lengthy epoch. If they do I\'ll just play it up for controversy and use the publicity to sell more books. But anarchist theory is so marginalized that they\'ll likely never find out.
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 06:26 AM CST
Well first off I choose to only post under my first name in part because while most of those I discuss with know who I am it makes it a lot more difficult for employers/journalists. When posts are time stamped as on infoshop this can be quite important for people posting from work. So please respect this and stop sticking my second name all over the place, especially as whoever is doing so is choosing to be completely anonymous themselves. (Chuck doesn\'t infoshop have some sort of policy about this?)

To deal with the more substantial point of labels.

Unfortuantly the \'post-left/anarchist\'s started off the misues of labels here. Calling themselves \'post-left\' is intended to start off the discussion by labelling the rest of us as \'left-anarchists\'. The only other people who try and label us \'left-anarchists\' are the \'libertarian capitalists\'. I\'m therefore not willing to accept \'post-left\' as an accurate label for debate on these grounds alone.

Secondly in terms of what is being argued it is clearly a post (or if you prefer) neo position in relation to what anarchism has been and is. Like the lib-caps there is also a \'pre\' element in the sense of the individualists of the late 19thC. So there is an accuracy in the prefix \'post\' in terms of where these arguments are coming from in relation to the existing movement.

This does not in itself prove these arguments wrong and nor as has been suggested does it cut them off from anarchist history. By definition anything that is \'post\' something shares the history of whatever that something is (but is a development of it.)

There are other labels that they could adopt, can I suggest \'post organisational anarchism\' as one (but perhaps it should be spelled \'post organizational anarchism\'). I wouldn\'t feel the same way about being labelled an \'organisational anarchist\' as I do about being labelled a \'left\' anarchist.

Use of an agreed terminology is important if you want constructive debate. Right now the terminology is contested something I\'m marking by using the term \'post anarchist\' to describe the ideas I\'m arguing against just as they use \'post-left\' to describe the ideas they are arguing against.
comment by Alcoholocaust
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 06:51 AM CST
Try tossing a modicum of wit into your humor. I appreciate wordplay as much as the next nerd, but these are failed puns, granted they\'re in response to a pun, but one which I find quite suiable for the overall theme of the book.
Now, given that puns are already the lowest form of humor, you\'ve inadvertantly stumbled onto the comedic equivalent of a twofold fuckup. And to what greater purpose? Just to be obnoxious?
comment by Alcoholocaust
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 07:09 AM CST
terminology isn\'t really important to me. I don\'t shirk away from \'anarchist\' because I find myself agreeing with the basic tenets of anarchism. I attempt to live my life within the confines of modern society to the greatest extent that I can in an anarchist manner. Therefor, \'Anarch\' doesn\'t bother me either. I routinely skip across the \"unbridgable chasm\" of lifestyle anarchism and social anarchism because its quite narrow where I\'m at currently. I\'m antagonistic towards primitivism but find that the rest of the post-left is at least asking the right questions at this particular venture, regardless of wether they have the right answers. I\'m captivated by Anarchy but haven\'t the slightest idea how to move it forward in any real world sense, and half the milieu would denounce such steps as counter-productive anyway. In short, I am a slave to a beautiful idea.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 08:17 AM CST
Infoshop News does not allow people\'s real names to be revealed, or aliases to be linked to real names. Violations of this policy are grounds for deletion, or editing of posts.
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 09:04 AM CST
I thought so, thanks!
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 09:49 AM CST
When you say, \"left anarchists (those identified with syndicalism and certain styles of communism) share more assumptions concerning organizational forms, ideological conformity, the role of work (among other topics) with authoritarian leftists than they do with other anarchist communists (and certainly with individualists).\"

Could you please be more specific.

When it comes to organizational forms, most authoritarian leftists believe in vanguardist/leninist parties; and their relationship to mass organizations is one with tne eventual subservence of that mass organization to the party and/or the state. Some anarcho-syndicalists believe that the mass organization should be structured according to anarchist principles and actively hostile to the state and political parties. Some anarcho-communists feel that a mass organization is destined to engage in some kind of reformism because of it\'s mass nature and its role of mediation with capitalism, until there is a social revolution; so they call for the formation of specific organizations that agitate for revolutionary ideas among the base of those mass organizations and social movements. All that those three ideas have in common is that they acknowledge that mass organizations exist and on some level interact with them.

Ideological conformity? Well... best I can tell is that some post-leftists are claiming not to have an ideology, when it\'s pretty clear that they do have one; one that is increasingly rigid. Some anarcho-syndicalists don\'t ask for ideological conformity, but do advocate a directly democratic structure in their mass orginazation (the union)... and that members keep to the decisions made; some of which are ideological. For instance, one of the biggest debate among anarcho-syndicalists is whether to participate in work-council elections, and if so... how to make those elected to the work council accountable to the base. Anarcho-syndicalists have an ideological opposition to unionizing cops... and will go so far as to explicitly prohibit it, even to expelling a section that does so. Modern platformists want to develop theoretical coherence within their specific organization, but also recognize a revolutionary pluralism (that is that this or that particular individual or group doesn\'t have all the right ideas); as such we can work alongside groups that we have enough in common to work with. For example, NEFAC can participate in say an Revolutionary Anti-Capitalist Bloc... even though we might disagree with some of the ideas of some folks in the IWW, or FRAC. Further, our magazine is open to debate... for instance with Bring the Ruckus, Participatory Economics, New Socialist Group and even Zerzan! However the idea of reaching for theoretical coherence within an organization is to give a common basis to our activity. If the organization doesn\'t have a theoretical agreement on labor unions, then it makes it very difficult to be involved with union work as a collective (rather than say as individuals who might even work at cross purposes). If the specific organization\'s theoretical coherence deviates to much from an individuals own ideas, than both the individual and the collective are better off freely disassociating from such an intimate level. It is often implied by some post-leftists that one of the strengths of affinity groups IS their agreement, and that such agreements are easier to achieve among a few people, rather than a large number of people. The authoritarian leftists? Well... the most Leninist of them will \"re-educate\" or shoot you if you don\'t agree with the ideas of the party and/or state.

The role of work? That depends... are we talking about the semantic confusion that relatest all alienated labor to the title of \"work\", and all non-alienated labor to the title of \"play\". If so, I think almost all anarchists are very critical of work, and productivist ideas. One difference is that some anarcho-syndicalists and anarcho-communists are actually involved in collectively fighting day to day struggles to reduce the rate of exploitation, sometimes through mass organizations (probably the only place they overlap with the authoritarian left). Another difference is that some anarcho-syndicalists and anarcho-communists actually propose some ideas about alternative ways of structuring the economy so that it is not capitalistic and hierarchial... through concepts like cooperatives, communes, self-management, etc... this is quite different than the authoritarian left which advocates a state-capitalism with a top down command structure (one man factory management), centralization, taylorization, forced labor, etc...

Relevancy. While I might disagree admantly with the ideas and actions of authoritarian leftists; they certainly have been relevant in the past as the conquered half the globe; the other half being held by authoritarian rightists. No, it is we anarchists who have faded in and out relevancy. Some anarchists would argue that it when we have been most organized, with strategies and relationships to social movements engaged in class struggle--is when anarchists have been the most relevant to people\'s daily lives.

comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 14 2003 @ 06:13 AM CST
It is quite difficult to be polite to those who insist on calling you a leninist. If I seem a bit harsh on the post-anarchists this is a good part of the reason why. I think my remarks on Jasons essay were more constructive precisly because he avoided such labelling this time around.

It is a simple fact that the only other political grouping that use the label \'left-anarchist\' are the libertarian capitalists. This is not a fact I created and its use by them predates Jasons chronololgy of the development of post-anarchism. Given that both movements are based in the US he and the others writers much have already been aware that the \'lib-cap\' crowd used this term but still went ahead and choose to use it. In other words this confusion/conflation is their problem and not something of my making. And I do think there are reasons for both choosing such a term which I have expanded on before here (and I believe reprinted by AJODA).

As to outing pseudonyms I accept this was probably not your intention. But it\'s really up to me to judge whether I\'m being paranoid or they might be out to get me :-) I do know several people who at this stage have had their jobs threatened as a result of internet postings, right back in fact to 1994. And the anarchist movement in this country has come under a huge amount of heat this year. We have had people raided, jailed, summonsed to the high court and all the usual crap that comes with doing stuff the state finds annoying. We\'ve had several press scare stories run on us, our reply to the one a couple of weeks back can be found at http://struggle.ws/wsm/anarchistnews/29/sindo.html

Right now we are organising for a blockade of Shannon airport (refuels US Iraq bound war planes, over 60 arrests this year) on Dec 6th, blockading bin lorries (22 jailed for this in last month or so) and preparing protests for the EU summits in Ireland next year. So there are plenty of reasons why they may be out to get us, see http://struggle.ws/wsm/news.html for more on all of these.

Bottom line, there is plenty of reason to believe they might be out to get us! But IMHO in all cases one should respect the decision of other anarchists to post anonoymously, even if you think they are just being paranoid.
comment by Chekov
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 08:44 PM CST
http://www.eclac.cl/povertystatistcs/documentos/dikhanov.pdf Tables 4 & 5 in the appendices show pretty clearly (if you know some statistics) that the communist block had a more equal distribution of income than any other region in the world. The comparison of capitalist property against communist perks would be very unlikely to change this balance. Although obviously all statistics have to be taken with a pinch of salt, this is not from a left wing bunch.

By the way one clarfification, when I said \"while they often referred to themselves as \'left-communists\'\", I was referring to the \'ultra-left\'.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 11:29 PM CST
Post-leftists cannot agree on what they mean by \"post-leftism.\"

That\'s because it isn\'t some kind of unified ideology, which Jason points out in his essay. And as for Anarchy magazine saying this or that thing--Anarchy magazine doesn\'t have a trademark on the idea of post-leftism. I happen to be one \"post-leftist\" who disagrees with most of the post-leftist\" writers published in Anarchy, including Jason McQuinn.
comment by Morpheus
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 06:56 PM CST
I have had people who call themselves post-leftists tell me that post-leftism is about anti-organizationalism, anti-tech, anti-workerism, etc. Not every post-leftist agrees with your conception of post-leftism. Post-leftists cannot agree on what they mean by \"post-leftism.\"
comment by Morpheus
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 07:28 PM CST
Anarchy magazine has published many essays linking Post-Leftism to anti-organizationalism and other things.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 07:33 PM CST
\"Firstly, thanks morpheus for your description of \'post-anarchism\'. If it does mean what you describe, then I can\'t see how it can possibly have anything to do with anarchism, since individual freedom and equality are surely universal values that we would hold up.\"

Well, they reject hierarchy so that makes them anarchists no matter how screwed up their philosophy may be.
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 07:45 PM CST
\"The distribution of wealth was far more equal in the USSR than it has ever been in any capitalist state.\"

You got some proof of this? Party leaders had all sorts of priviledges - their own giant estates, servants who would click their heels for their \'comrade masters\', etc. Some lived in mansions while others starved.
comment by Stirner
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 11:00 AM CST
The funny thing is that, as a class-struggle revolutionnary \"platformists\", I always bump into the same problems you mention. I always have to say to potential ally that I am not one of THOSE anarchists (\"those\" in this case being individualists, anti-organisational, post-left anarchists). That\'s why I prefer to call myself a libertarian communist, or anarcho-communist, despite the bad \'vibe\' generaly associated with the word \"communist\"... ;-)
comment by self-flagellant
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 12:34 PM CST
andrew, i\'m so sorry that i insisted upon using your last name in my posts. i had no idea that 1. your boss(es) were regular readers of infoshop.org and 2. that your ideas and assertions about internal anarchist debates were so dangerous to the smooth functioning of capitalism that they could possibly get you dismissed from your job. mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. if this were a more public forum (instead of an auto-marginalized one), i would certainly be counted on to respect your privacy. i am no fan of people who burn the noms de guerre of others.

in any case, your attempt to conflate the \"post-left\" discourse with the absurd notions of the \"libertarian [sic] capitalists\" is blatantly unfair and dishonest. i know of not one \"post-left\" anarchist who is pro-capitalist. all you do by this clumsy attemt is discredit your otherwise legitimate concerns with what you see as a wrong-headed discussion. it is an embarrassment.

the only place that the terms of the discourse seem to be contested in in your posts and letters. you need to accept the good faith of at least some of the \"post-left\" folks, otherwise you wind up sounding like a crank.

comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 02:11 PM CST
I have to disagree with Chekov. I do not think leftism can really be meaningfully tied to distribution of wealth, except maybe between elite classes. The communists do not want a more equal distribution of wealth. What they want is to take the wealth from the owning class and put it in the hands of the bureaucratic and intellectual class.

Of course, they use the argument that the party is the people and therefore since the party runs the government that therefore the people own the property, but it\'s bullshit, of course. Capitalists use the very similar rhetoric, really, when you think of it. Consider the logic of trickle down economics: cut taxes at the top and it benefits all of us.

In my opinion, it is precisely because this property relation does not change (workers/renters still do not own their workplaces under communism any more than they do under capitalism) that communism inevitably recuperates capitalism. That is - it\'s a capitalist ideology, when you get right down to it. It\'s just more like monopoly capitalism than supposedly free market capitalism.

Maybe you can say that leftism is tied to which elite class owns the wealth, but not in terms of real distribution since neither ideology would allow a meaningful division of the wealth - that would be suicide.

In the end, my biggest problem with leftism is that it is a useless duality, and as a duality it pits one side against the other and forces artificial alliances made of otherwise contradictary interests. In the end, it looks a lot like a dialectical relationship to me, but one that takes us further towards elite domination because it is elites that dominate at each end of the spectrum.

I\'m not saying I\'m against adversarial relationships - I\'m for the killing the bosses and landlords as much as any anarcho-commie - I just don\'t think the left-right dichotomy leads us to it.

Of course, in the end, I think it\'s practical to ditch the left-right bullshit anyhow, since most people don\'t give a shit about it. It\'s a ideological formation which, aside from the other points I\'ve mentioned, serves to create an internal dialogue and reference point for those in the know - i.e., seperating those specialists who see themselves as the ones who will make change from those who will be excluded.
comment by Chekov
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, November 13 2003 @ 06:26 PM CST
Necrotic State, I think that you are wrong in pretty much everything you say. To elaborate:

\"I do not think leftism can really be meaningfully tied to distribution of wealth, except maybe between elite classes.\"

The distribution of wealth was far more equal in the USSR than it has ever been in any capitalist state. Even within the confined spectrum of capitalist governments we can clearly see that those to the left have presided over states with much more equal wealth distributions than those to the right. For example Wilson\'s labour administration of the 1970\'s in Britain saw the gap between rich and poor actually steadily decreasing, which was completely reversed by Thatcher\'s right wing administration of the 80\'s. Also consider the obvious differences in wealth distribution between the left-capitalist (social democratic) regime in Sweden in the 1980\'s and the right-wing Reagan administration in the US at the same time.

The interesting thing is that most people in the world who know anything about politics would instantly recognise the Swedish model and the Wilson\'s Labour government as being to the left of Reagan\'s and Thatcher\'s. In these cases the right-wing governments were actually much more authoritarian than the leftist ones. However, considering that most people would also consider Stalin\'s Russia to be on the left, the authoritairianism of the regime does not seem to come into play when discussing the rightness or leftness of the regime - just the distribution of wealth.

\"The communists do not want a more equal distribution of wealth. What they want is to take the wealth from the owning class and put it in the hands of the bureaucratic and intellectual class.\"

The Leninist regimes never had as simple a relationship between wealth and power as exists in capitalism where the two are almost equivalent. Certainly there was an elite class with enormous power, but this was always difficult to transfer into individual wealth. The dissonance between the official rhetoric and conspicuous consumption simply didn\'t allow the same levels of accumulation as more right-wing administrations allow. They may give the odd nod to theories of trickle down, but at the same time they hold up the example of the super-rich as the creative spark of the economy, which had no parallel in communist states. The people certainly did not own the wealth, but neither did the bureaucracy in nearly the same way as they do in capitalist states.

It is also interesting to note that Lenin himself and the rest of the Bolshevik bandits referred to those who were in favour of a quicker move to communism without an intermediate period of the continuation of the wage system as the \'ultra-left\', while they often referred to themselves as \'left-communists\'.

\"In the end, my biggest problem with leftism is that it is a useless duality\"

I think that the problem with this is that there is no such thing as \'leftism\'. I mean, I have never heard of anybody describing their politics in absolute political terms as \'leftist\'. Unlike say anarchist, or communist, or even socialist, it has no absolute meaning. It merely situates one on one side of a particular political spectrum, in a particular political context, rather than the other. As I pointed out above, I don\'t think that this label says anything about one\'s position on the authoritarian-libertarian spectrum, or any other spectrum for that matter, and I don\'t think that anybody has ever thought that it did. I mean you will never hear an anarchist describe their politics as leftism, but you might just hear them say that they are left-libertarians, although I have never heard of this before.

\"and as a duality it pits one side against the other and forces artificial alliances made of otherwise contradictary interests.\"

I don\'t think that the fact that anarchists might consider themselves on the left has forces any artificial alliances. I mean when we have right wing governments in power we will obviously be fighting against the same things as the leninists will, simply because both groups will be defending attacks on the distribution of wealth, but if we had an extremely authoritarian government we would also find ourselves fighting against the same things that right-libertarians would be fighting against. There is nothing artificial about this. Just because we share a relative position on one spectrum of political division with some other group does not mean we should ally ourselves with them.

\"Of course, in the end, I think it\'s practical to ditch the left-right bullshit anyhow, since most people don\'t give a shit about it. It\'s a ideological formation which, aside from the other points I\'ve mentioned, serves to create an internal dialogue and reference point for those in the know - i.e., seperating those specialists who see themselves as the ones who will make change from those who will be excluded.\"

Actually, I think that if you asked people the question \"do you think the right or the left are more committed to distributing wealth equally\", the enormous majority would answer \'the left\'. Therefore, I think that the term left is actually useful in general as it does start to convey some sort of idea of where we are coming from in a useful shorthand. On the other hand, calling yourself a \'post-leftist anarchist\' is going to be comprehensible in any meaningful way to a few dozen people in the world. Which do you think is more likely to exclude?

On the other hand I think that if you asked people \"do you think the right or the left are more authoritarian\" you would get a mixed response, at least in Europe anyway. I know that when I\'m seeking allies in new workplaces I start by introducing myself as a leftie, rather than an anarchist, simply because this is a more concise way of letting them know that I\'m looking to cause trouble for the bosses! Perhaps in the US this would be different, but I think that is more to do with the strength of cold war propaganda there and the fact that most people genuinely believe that it would be impossible for people to share wealth more equitably without being forced to do so by a dictatorial government. To my mind, avoiding the term \'left; is simly avoiding this real problem.

Okay, that basically sums up why I think that there is no point in ditching the term \'left\' (although I don\'t think anybody considers themselves a leftist), but I still don\'t have any real idea of what a post-leftist is. The funny thing is that the only description so far that I think actually meant anything (from Morpheus) gathers together ideas that would generally be considered \'ultra-leftist\' in Europe!
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 14 2003 @ 01:19 PM CST
Chekov, I think your point about things being different because I live in the US and you do not may explain a lot. Things are quite different here, and I think that is an important point that even most American anarchists have yet to recognize, sadly. The European model of revolution is not necessarily a model that even applies here in the US of A. And, of course, there is no social democracy ar labor left to speak of and, with rare exception, never has been.

I see your point about distribution of wealth. But, I wonder if the figures you use include the control over production? Do the figures you cite include the ability to appoint the factory foreman, or the Stakhnovist aparatchik, or to vote on the 5 year plan, etc? These are all things that the capitalist class does here in the US, though, granted, it happens through two parties rather than one, with the capitalist class itself maintaining a certain amount of independence.

It seems to me that your critique of the division of wealth fails in this respect. That\'s important because the division of wealth in the US would certainly have to include property ownership, else we would certainly get quite egalitarian figures as well. I doubt that your figures consider managers as owners under communism, even though the workers in general clearly are not. A top down economy needs owners and managers, so we know they\'re there. Is it a game of labels, then? Likewise, I doubt those figure consider party five-year planners as owners either. Those figures are skewed because of that.

This is why I pointed out how the average person\'s relationship to property does not change under communism. It\'s not enough to consider wealth as mere property. It\'s also the relationship to property.

But, clearly, as has been admitted by several people in this discussion, post-Leftism is an ongoing dialogue. It seems to me that one of the main criteria that should be considered is the person or movement\'s relation to state power. Leftists in general should be defined as vying for state power.

Of course, all anarchists say that they aren\'t vying for state power, but from our history I don\'t think that this works out so well in practice.

I don\'t identify to people as a post-Leftist anarchist. I tell them I am an anarchist. And I make it clear, when I have to, that the leftists will fuck them as much as the rightists will, and that the left exists primarily to accomplish what the right can\'t get away with. For me, post-Leftist is a strategic orientation, not an identity.

But, I think you are making a major mistake when you single out authoritarian distributions of wealth from the division accomplished under supposed democratic regimes. Both are very much coerced. That is a fundamental anarchist critique of the state after all: the state is always coercive. Taxes are coercive. Rents are coercive. Laws are always dictatorial. Even democratic socialist governments are dictatorships for the excluded class.

I suggest that it is precisely this leftist orientation amongst so many anarchists that explains why we have been part of so many struggles that led to left governments but so few that led to the smashing of the state and the distribution of wealth by the people themselves, through expropriation and mutual aid, which are not authoritarian precisely because they are unmediated.
comment by Magic Missile
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, November 14 2003 @ 09:39 PM CST
We call the US \"democrats\" (i.e democratic party) corporate assholes all the time, that\'s authoritarian too? A duck is still a duck even if it tries to bark.