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An Anarchist Program For Labor

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An Anarchist Program For Labor



by Wayne Price (NEFAC-NYC)

Today there is a general unrest and anger among working people, even though most workers continue to hold usual "American" views (support of capitalism, the two parties, racism at some level, patriotism, etc.). This unorganized discontent has resulted in a change in the heirarachy of the unions, a move toward a more liberal, more active group of bureaucrats, under John Sweeney. The new leaders are worried about their loss of membership (bureaucrats who cannot even keep their dues base are pretty pathetic). They have managed to link up with college activists (especially on the more affluent campuses) to oppose sweatshop labor, in the U.S. and abroad, and to include environmentalism.

But a conscious movement of worker radicals will develop, in opposition to the union officials (not the unions) as well as the capitalists and the State. It is important that the most radical, militant activists link up with each other, as a nucleus of broader oppositional work. Anarchist workers should not leave the union leaders alone in a mutual non-aggression pact. Union officials, even the most decent and honest, are a layer within the workers' organizations which represent the interests of the capitalist class.

More precisely, the bureaucracy balances between the workers and the capitalists. It needs to get something for the workers (or it would be out of business) but it seeks to keep class conflict within limits. Anarchists should constantly challenge the union officials, criticizing their actions from below. While working as much as they can with others on specific issues, anarchists also must make clear that their program is different from all others. It stands for the complete self-organization of society. If anarchist militants make their program clear, they will rarely be elected for union office above the lowest levels of shop steward or factory committee. Running on a radical program, anarchist militant workers will only be able to unseat the highest level of reformist union boss in times of upheaval and stress, when the ordinary, conventional-minded, workers will take their full program seriously.

While a full program for all of the unions - recognized and as-yet unrecognized - cannot be laid out here, some priniciples can be suggested. Such general principles include militancy, democratization of the unions and the workplace, and solidarity.

Militancy includes a willingness for civil disobedience (breaking the law) when needed. By no accident, many of the most effective tactics of labor are either banned by law or denied by the courts. Even simple strikes are illegal for almost all public employees and frequently banned by court injunction for many other workers. If a strike is permitted, pickets may be allowed for informational purposes - but mass picketing to prevent strikebreakers from entering is illegal. A struggling union may call for boycotts of the bosses' products - but it is illegal to organize other workers to refuse to handle or transport the products or to refuse to bring in necessary goods for the products. These are "secondary" or "sympathy" strikes and injure other bosses (as if the capitalists do not support each other in the event of a strike). In between contract negotiations, local complaints in a particular department must be handled by grievance arbitration, not by mini-strikes or "wildcat strikes." Strikers may picket a plant but must not occupy the plant, because this violates the owners' private property. As if the great industrial unions were not formed in the 1930's by such sit-down strikes! Workplace occupations are particularly effective because they prevent scabs from being brought in, they prevent machinery or offices from being used or even removed, and they limit violence since the capitalists are reluctant to damage their mechanical property.

So anti-authoritarians should urge such tactics as public employee strikes, mass picketing, sympathy strikes, and, especially plant occupations. None of these should be done lightly, of course. They need careful preparation beforehand, to confront the state and the bosses with the greatest possible show of strength.

Discussing sympathy strikes already raises the issue of solidarity. The willingness of workers to stick together, all of those in a plant, or an industry, or a city, is the greatest strength of the working class. It is the counter to the main weakness of the working class, namely its divisions: racial, sexual, occupational, and so on. "An injury to one is an injury to all" must become the workers' slogan. The workers (as workers) must also support struggles of all oppressed people and win the support of every community. This includes opposition to all racist practices within the workplace, including support for "super-seniority" for Black workers' advancement, for example, and opposition to all racism outside of the workplace. Faced with multinational corporations, unions need to organize internationally, and to be prepared to strike internationally.

An especially powerful tactic is the general strike. If most of the workers of a city (or region) go on strike at one time, then the capitalists are severely weakened. The workers can decide what to allow to still run (perhaps the firefighters, food to shelters, or hospitals for emergency. Tthis does not include police unions, since the police, although "public employees," are not workers and will be used against the workers. They should be replaced by worker and community patrols!). It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to enforce court injunctions or no-strike laws. Middle class white-collar working people would come to terms with the organized working class, as public transit stopped, bridges were raised, telephones stopped, and truck deliveries ceased. Computers would stop without the support of the rank-and-file keyboarders. Electricity might be turned off.

Such militant and united tactics as workplace occupation and the general strike are potentially revolutionary. They raise the possibility of the workers not only stopping production effectively, but of the workers starting it up again under their own control. The workers in an occupied factory can decide to start it up, making useful things that people need--but first arranging with other plants to get the necessary materials for their factory, and then arranging for distribution of the product. In a general strike with factory occupations, the workers can decide how to run the whole city or region, economically and politically. It could be the beginning of a revolution.

For such reasons, the capitalist class and the State would not peacefully accept mass picketing, plant occupations, or general strikes. It would attack them with police, the National Guard, and private company police. All these have been repeatedly used in U.S. history. The workers must be prepared to defend themselves in an organized and effective manner. This would be the beginning of a popular milita.

All this raises the issue of democratic organization. General strikes and international strikes will require a certain increase in centralization of unions, which must be balanced by increased local democratization. No strikes should be done without careful planning and organization (with the possible exception of wildcat department strikes which may happen on the spur of the moment). If we are discussing potentially taking over factories and cities, we are considering a lot of organization. Anarchists should want both democratization of the unions and of industry.

Anarchists need to demand democratic control of union locals and of the national (or international) unions, with direct election of all officials, instead of appointment from above. They should call for the end of the single-party system, whereby union oppositions are, at best, shut out of political life in the internal publications of the unions, and, at worst, face violent suppression. They should call for rotation of offices (a different president every year or so - as is usually done in professional organizations of doctors or psychologists). During strikes and even negotiations, they should advocate the election of workers' councils at each workplace, with local decision-making powers, and contacts among the councils. All contracts should be voted on by the membership. If the union bureaucracy does not accept such democratic ideas, the workers should go ahead anyway to elect local councils, support the rights of oppositonists, elect local officials, etc.

The union bureaucrats and bosses usually negotiate lengthy, several-year, contracts, with no-strike clauses. The union then serves to enforce workplace conditions upon the workers. It would be a mistake to return to the historic IWW opposition to all contracts; contracts can register gains for workers. Instead militants should insist on one-year contracts, with the right to strike over local conditions. When the bosses drag out negotiations past the expiration of the contract, radical workers insist on 'No contract, no work.' Contract negotiations should not be seen as business-as-usual deals but as campaigns for which the workers are mobilized.

Specific issues around which unions are organized or strikes called will depend on conditions in each workplace and each industry. There is no magic formula (such as the Trotskyist 'transitonal program' or Maoist 'mass line') for sliding from the concrete needs of ordinary people to revolutionary demands. We just have to keep working at it.

Of course anarchists should be for higher wages, better benefits, and shorter hours. In principle they call for a sliding scale of wages and hours. That is, as inflation increases, so should wages, automatically. Further, as unemployment increases, work hours should decrease, without lose of pay. This is, in principle, the basis of a socialist economy: dividing the amount of work needed by the number of workers available. This is a demand on all of society, including on the state, for public works for the unemployed.

But anti-authoritarians should also raise demands implying worker control of the workplace: demands about working conditions and quality of life. These demands challenge the right of management to decide as it pleases about the working life of its employees. They raise the question of how people are forced to work and how they might work differently, more humanly. Issues include assembly line speed, health and safety on the shop floor, restroom breaks, number of immediate supervisors, and even demands for better products (safer, longer lasting, less polluting, cheaper). The peace movement has offered to work with weapons manufacturers and their unions to plan for a transition to peacetime production. This can be generalized, as unions work with public groups to plan for a transition to a peacetime, nonpolluting, "post-industrial" economy.

Unions of "professionals" (teachers, nurses, or librarians) are the opposite of most blue collar workers in this regard. The blue collars feel it is right to negotiate wages but usually accept that working conditions are "management's perogative." But "professionals" often feel uncomfortable about demanding higher wages, yet feel it is right to demand more control over "working conditions" (smaller class sizes, control over textbooks, a better nurse- to-patient ratio, etc.). Consider the slogan of the American Federation of Teachers: "Teachers demand what students need." Why not "Steelworkers demand what the community needs"?

The demand for workers' control of industry does not mean endorsing the various "equality circle" or "team" approaches of management. These are methods for workers and management to "work together." They deny that there is a conflict of interest between workers and bosses. Activists should participate in these "teams," in order to demonstrate to the other workers that these are devices to increase their exploitation.

Instead, we can advocate the collective contract. Rather than hiring individuals, the capitalists hire a "gang" or group, perhaps through a union hiring hall. The bosses provide the capital, the machinery and raw material, and the goal of so many cars or widgets. The workers divide up the tasks among themselves and set their work schedule. The group may include technical specialists, or the specialists (but not bosses) may be provided by management. Workers choose "supervisors" (coordinators) and discipline themselves. Unlike the "team" approaches, there are no management supervisors on the shop floor. Finally, the capitalists pay a lump sum to the group and the workers divide up the pay among themselves by whatever scale they have decided on.

Such methods have in fact been used occasionally (for example, among autoworkers in Coventry, England), and elements of it have been used in the U.S., such as the union hiring hall. In theory it is not incompatible with capitalism and would increase productivity, but it is hard to imagine capitalists adopting it widely. The collective contract directly exposes the unnecessary role of capitalist management. Who needs them? Just for this reason, anarchist workers should publicize ithe idea and demand steps in that direction (such as election of foremen or of a rank-and-file safety committee, or the
location of factories, decisions to open or close plants, the type or price of products).

Questions arise about whether anarchists should be for making demands on the State. Anarchists do not believe that the solution to capitalism's problems is for the capitalist State to take over the economy - and history has supported this opinion. But what if unions' campaign for public works for the unemployed or for public ownership of certain industries (such as the Tennessee Valley Authority or the British coal industry)? In recent years there has been an ongoing battle over "privatization." The right wing has advocated selling off (or giving away) services run by government, such as schools, transportation, sanitation, maintenance, postal services, etc. This is being presented as ways to increase "efficiency." Since there is no magic alternative way to teach school or clean the streets, the only way the private firm can be more "efficient" is to cut workers' pay and increase their work-loads.

Anarchists should oppose privatization and should make demands on the State. The State claims to represent the community. People should demand that it live up to its claim. Since it cannot, it will stand exposed as what it is, the bureaucratic-military agent of an oppressive minority, the capitalist class and other oppressers. Anarchists should say that workers should not trust the State, and say why, but support the movement against privatization as a struggle in defense of the community and workers' rights.

Most workers in the U.S. do not support proposals for government takeover of new industries, even in areas where it might make sense. The argument that public ownership is inefficient is pretty much accepted by U.S. workers. But they may accept the idea of taking away industry from the rich and powerful (expropriation), to be democratically run by the workers and local communities. There have been a number of instances where failing local industries have been taken over, or tried to be taken over, by unions, or local employees, or local communities. These efforts have often received a lot of public support, unlike calls for nationalization.

Wherever possible, anarchists should raise non-State programs. For example, it is right to support "single-payer" health care programs, which are usually interpreted as government-run health ("socialized medicine"). But anarchists can call for health care run by a national federation of health consumer cooperatives (perhaps with state subsidies). Local health centers could be democratically run by patients (everyone) and medical personnel.

The issue of the State also arises in considering union democracy. Faced with a thoroughly entrenched union bureaucracy, liberal oppositionists have often turned to the courts or government agencies to try to enforce democratic rights. Generally these attempts have gotten nowhere. The government does not like to intervene against established union officials, and when it does, it is so biased, and works at such a glacial pace, that little is achieved.

However, there have been instances where the lack of democracy was so exceptional, and the political climate was right, that the State did intervene in union struggles to increase democratization. One well-known case was in 1972, when it intervened in the United Mine Workers. The incumbent was Tony Boyle who had his rival murdered right after the 1969 election, along with members of his family. As a result of government oversight of the union election, Arnold Miller, leader of the reform group, Miners for Democracy, became president.

Similarly, in the 1990s, the government pressed racketeering charges against union officials of the Teamsters and decided to oversee elections. A decent reformer, Ron Carey, was elected, with the support of the reform group, Teamsters for a Democratic Union.

It is a mistake to call for or support state intervention in the unions. Despite apparent advantages, it means letting an agent of the ruling class make internal decisions about the workers' organizations. The union bureaucracy is also an agent of the capitalist class and the State, but the union is one of the few organizations still "owned" by the workers. Their aim should be to get rid of the bureaucracy, not to increase State intervention. Rank-and-file organizations should be built to fight the bureacracy, rather than relying on reformist labor lawyers.

If the State does intervene, anarchists must decide how to relate to the union reformists. The reformists' willingness to use State intervention is one issue but not the only one (considering that the incumbent bureaucracy is also an agent of the capitalists). Often we may support the oppositionists, in order to open up the union and make room for more militancy and democracy - which should have been done in the miners and the Teamsters' elections just mentioned. But anarchists must warn of the limitations of the reformists' program (including its support of the State, as well as other limitations).

The danger of relying on the State was demonstrated in the Teamsters' Union. After helping Carey get elected, the government overseer of elections banned him from running in the next national election, even though he may have been the most popular candidate! The excuse was his use of some financial tricks to aid his re-election - not nice, but not remarkable in the unions. This guaranteed the election of James Hoffa, Jr., the candidate of the conservative bureaucracy. What the State gives with one hand, it can take away with the same hand.

In conclusion, from their beginnings the unions have had two potential directions. One is to integrate a minorit y of the working class within the capitalist system. It is to build up a weighty bureaucratic layer which lives off the struggles of the workers and which cooperates with the ruling class to maintain social stability. In return they get a certain amount for the ranks, of better job security and a better standard of living, even if within the confines of an oppressive society. However, the bosses regard these business unions as necessary evils at best, to be crushed when times are difficult. Workers’ gains are to be beaten back whenever possible. We are seeing just such attacks on the unions now as they are defeated again and again.

On the other hand, the unions may be seen to be examples of the self-organization of the working class. Potentially they are mighty weapons of the workers. Even to workers who have never read a word of anarchism or Marxism, the unions have political implications. The formation of unions imply that the capitalists and the workers have different and conflicting interests. Their existence implies that individuals cannot do it alone, making personal deals with the boss, but need to cooperate together, to stand in solidarity. By no means are the unions the only forms of popular resistance. Nor are they inevitably revolutionary. But they will play a major part in the North American revolution. And if not, there will be no revolution.


=================

The Northeastern Anarchist #4 (spring/summer 2002)

Magazine of the Northeastern Federation of Anarcho-Communists (NEFAC)

Single copies are $5ppd ($6 international). Subscriptions are $15ppd for four issues ($18 international). For distribution, bundle orders are $3 per copy for three or more copies, and $2.50 per copy for ten or more. Checks or money orders can be made out to “Northeastern Anarchist” and sent to:

Northeastern Anarchist

PO Box 230685

Boston, MA 02123, USA

email: sabate36@juno.com

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An Anarchist Program For Labor | 108 comments | Create New Account
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 03:41 AM CDT
Time for a reality check everyone, and to clarify what I am saying. Keep in mind that this began because the assertion was made that labor dynamics are not important because after the revolution, most production will be ended ... limited to only \"migrant farmwork\" happening as offices everywhere are abolished. Such little work will be done in anarchyland that the historical struggle for workplace democracy is useless, and instead we should defer to the Dilbert-inspired message of randomly stealing office supplies.

Any opposition to this vision of the future is \"leftist\" or \"syndicalist\" or whatever. Meanwhile, every possible dig against unions is offered up as an argument against trying at all.

When pushed on the matter, those coming from an anti-work position begin with impassioned pleas such as \"What about the paper and all the products in your office?\" which can only lead one to a resolute stance: \"There is no place for offices in the world I\'m trying to create.\" Since this can never really be a reality when one actually thinks about how a planet with billions of people works, we get a little reprieve: \"Even in an anarchist world there will be tree cut down and welding.\" But don\'t expect any of the anarchists to \"volunteer\" for such work -- they don\'t lower themselves to such pedestrian tasks \"after the revolution.\"

The point is that workers taking control of their lives will include more leisure time, less useless work, less boring work. But how do we collective and get to that point if \"worker organization\" is automatically assaulted with a temper tantrum litany of anti-union rhetoric? I don\'t think that downplaying or refusing to confront the challenge of this critical social struggle is the answer.

And the other point is that the wishful thinking that work can be abolished is idiotic. It can be radically changed, but even in Gandhi\'s Indian communes, someone had to shovel the shit. In my experience, anarchists\' tendency to ignore this unpleasant detail of life has led to a lot of dysfunctional collective situations, mostly revolving around division of labor and working together. In a business environment, the authoritarian dynamics cut through this problem with brute force. How do people do it mutually? Unions and more radical workers collectives are at least an attempt to confront this problem from the other side. To dismiss them completely without an alternative or even acknowledgement that an alternative is needed is pretty frightening to me.

Necrotic, you continue to do this with your last post, in which you assert that everyone doing work today is just shuffling products from one hand to another, working service jobs, and those who do produce things will be rendered useless by your revolution. But I think this closes off a lot of what really goes on in the world. How do you deal with thousands of tons of human waste when people live together? Do you have a \"non-work\" method of doing this? What do you make the pipes out of? Where do you get the materials to make the pipe? How do you provide drinking water to humans living near each other? What is the \"non-work\" way of doing this? Do people with treatable diseases no longer get medication that helps them? How is this made? Who gives me the medication? If I break my arm, how do I get it set? How trains the doctors to do this? What if my house burns down? What do I eat? How is it grown? etc etc etc

Once you accept that living with other humans and just basic day-to-day life creates a hell of a lot of things that need to be done, I think you will see the revolutionary strategy of workplace organizing. As long as there is not some form of anti-authoritarian, collective, sustainable workplace that people can choose and fight for, there will be capitalism. The very definition of \"an absence of anarchism\" implies the lack of workers collectives. Accomplishing this is 90% of any working class revolution that means to be long-term and sustainable. This is not reformist. Nor does it say there has to be \"union leaders.\" And believe me, black and brown people have a problem with their bosses everyday too. Every single worker living under capitalism does. I think there needs to be a better anarchist strategy than stealing paperclips and \"killing your boss.\"
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 01:29 PM CDT
I\'d like to say several things about this article. First of all, it does have alot of good information about traditional worker tactics against capitalism. It includes alot of criticism of the big unions. It does offer some interesting ideas about what anarchists can do concerning labor.

On the other hand, I have the following problems with this article:

1) Reformism - This article is just not very radical, especially when it suggests that anarchists try to reform traditional unions. There is too much emphasis on \"union democracy\" which is a liberal concept, not an anarchist one. I suspect that Wayne\'s tepid suggestions for working with unions is based on his background as a leftist with the Love and Rage project. The traditional left in the U.S. is still very infatuated with organized labor, not realizing that organized labor should be opposed just as much as the bosses. Organized labor cannot be reformed, since it is an important tool of the capitalist class. Of course, workers who belong to unions can be radicalized and Wayne does detail how some of that can be accomplished. But I think that an honest anarchist stance towards organized labor should be a hostile one.

2) Dogma and workerism - In the teaser summary, it is suggested that the revolution won\'t happen without unions being involved. This is an incredible statement of workerist dogma. It completely ignores this history of worker revolt and the role that unions play in co-opting worker dissent. Also, there is language in this piece that suggests that Wayne thinks of workers in the blue collar (i.e. traditional left approach) sense, when most American workers are employed in the service industry or in offices. The traditional methods of organizing workers--even if they were effective-are inadequate to organizing contemporary workers. Capitalism has changed and this article shows little recognition of this fact.

3) Anti-work - Needless to say, this article completely misses the anti-work perspective, which has been developed in recent decades by anarchists, Marxists, and other leftists. This tendency has been an important update to thinking about how to oppose and organize against capitalism. The problem with the traditional union-focused program of creating revolution is that is doesn\'t challenge the very nature of wage slavery and work alienation. These labor traditionalists would have us replace one form of wage slavery with another, simply because they accept the very existence of an industrialized society. This way of thinking is very privileged and ignorant of how industrialized societies are reliant on the Global South to stay in existence. How can an anarchist justify the existence of a factory that requires the extraction of minerals from land in the Global South? Why should anarchists bother to unionize industries and workplaces that wouldn\'t exist after the revolution?

While this article is pretty good if one wants to look at work and labor through a traditional syndicalist lens, it stops short of making some truly radical anarchist suggestions for opposing capitalism.
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 02:40 PM CDT
I agree with ChuckO. The union may be a tool for revolution, but it is certainly not a tool for an anarchist revolution, and probably not even a tool for successful revolution in general. It\'s tendencies are conservative, as even a cursory reading of workers\' history shows. With a few notable exceptions, it should be recognized as well that among the working class, unionized labor is generally the best paid and lives the cushiest lives. Its contracts are really formalized systems through which surplus value extracted from non-unionized labor in the Third World or non-whites in America is channeled to purchase the passivity of the union workforce (in combination with other white supremacist privileges and nationalist flag-waving distractions). It should be remembered that unions can also be important to fascist organizing, which is a tendency I think we see here and pro-union anarchists and leftists seem to want everyone to forget.

Let me relay an incident that happened to me at a recent labor rally in Phoenix. I attended the yearly memorial for fallen workers, which was itself overall very sparsely attended. I, along with other anarchists handed out May Day fliers and pamphlets on class war. A few interesting conversations ensued and then the ceremony started. The names of fallen workers were read, along with police. Politicians spoke and flags were on full display. Despite this group being, it would be fair to assume, the more radical among the workers (because of their attendance at this kind of rally), everyone was noticeably uncomfortable with our presence there.

The fact is, the ten percent of the workers who are in unions are the leftovers of a world we are steadily leaving behind. They are conservative and it shows in their politics and their actions. And well they should be, given that they\'re a dying breed. Their demands are much more likely, as this author concedes, to tend towards statist solutions to problems and to leave anarchists in the roles of conscience and tag-along with regards to a movement that, because of its own inherent politics, marches not towards workers\' control, but rather to increasing government control and bureacracy. Our lot, as anarchists needs to be not with those with an interest in preserving the vestiges of the old order, but with those who have already opted out. We should not try and swell union ranks by supporting membership drives - we should be joining the struggle of those who have already opted out of both union and party democracy. There is a reason these two factors parallel each other so closely and it should not be ignored.

New revolutionary forms must be developed and supported that genuinely come from the current struggle. Old tools can offer lessons, and even provide some useful tactics, but the union as a revolutionary subject should be left in the dustbin of history where it belongs, at least as it concerns the post-industrial first world. For those outside the first world, I would still encourage them to organize mass refusal of the factory system, while they still can (drawing on the experiences of first worlders in the early 19th century as a guide), but I do not presume to speak for them or to predict the forms that their revolution will take.

Probably the best we can hope for from unions is for them to join in a distracting and self-destructive battle with capitalism and the state that will buy time for the real reorganization of society. So, in that sense, union militancy should certainly be encouraged, but it should probably be viewed as part of anarchists\' plans for revolution only as smoke screen while the real work goes on elsewhere.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 02:50 PM CDT
1) \"stance towards organized labor should be a hostile one.\"

Practically, what does this mean? If the anarchist stance to organized labor (and do you mean all forms of organized labor here, every AFL-CIO local, the UE, the IWW, the SAC, Spanish CGT and CNT, and even \"workers councils\" in the council communist sense?) is to be a hostile one, does that mean anarchists should smash unions. Burn down the union halls, break strikes, undermine solidarity through scabbing, not joining the union (if there is one already at your workplace), voting against any union in an NLRB election, rejecting participation in a recognition strike (ie, keep working and scabbing)? What does opposing organized labor as much as the bosses mean practically?

Like much of the post-left rheotic, the practical suggestions are non-existant, and if you guess at what they might be, they sound reactionary.

If organized labor is such an important tool to the capitalist class, then why do capitalists (individually and collectively) seek to weaken organized labor wherever they can. It\'s only when they fail to stop it, do they try and recuperate and coopt it into the system. The neo-liberal program has pretty much been a rejection of capitalists of the capitalist-AFL-CIO cooperation of Keynesism.

Democracy in a voluntary association of workers in reducing their exploitation has often been an anarchist principle. What are the alternatives? An anti-democratic top down structure? Or no collective decision-making structure at all, in which every act of individual worker rebellion is made in isolation. That is not to say that union democracy should have a monopoly on action, but rather... if there is a collective decision, it should be democratic (what kind of democracy workers prefer... concensus, super-majority, whatever, is up to them).

2) Sometimes union officials and bureacracy attempt to coopt worker militancy. The nature of unions is one of mediation between labor and capital. That said, the organized struggle of workers to reduce their rate of exploitation both leads to positive reforms in their day to day lives, but also contributes to the contradictions and crisis of capital, as well as building solidarity among workers engaged in that struggle and showing the value of direct action.

I don\'t see any blue collar bias in Wayne\'s piece. While there are blue collar examples, Wayne also praises the communal interests that teachers, nurses, and librarians put forth.

3) The appeal of anti-work rhetoric is overblown. Organized labor (whether industrial, agrarian, or service) moving from the withdrawl of productive (through sabotage and strike) and organized consumption (tennat\'s unions, rent strikes, boycotts, etc...) leading onto insurrection is the only thing that has ever really challenged capitalism. Workers in the Global South still organize unions, in industries that primarily export to the G-7. Why do they bother? Because that is where they work and where they encounter exploitation on a daily basis. The Bangladesh Garmet Workers Union could teach all the anti-workers in North America a thing or two. They are struggling for basic neccessities like shorter hours, more pay, and not being locked in the factory so they won\'t be burned to death when a fire breaks out. Anarchists don\'t have to justify the existence of a factory, or capitalism... that they exist is already apparent. The question is how to fight them, and anti-work rhetoric is only that and lacks any kind of serious praxis that can actually lead to a future of less work.


Labor and the Left

Much of the authoritarian left (and not so authoritarian) have little to no role in organized labor. The maoists (MIM, RCP) largely reject involvement since they regard all North American workers as hopleless corrupted by capitalism as \"labor aristocrats\". The ISO is based on campus. The Greens are notoriously weak when it comes to organized labor, the same could be said for most of the ecologically centered groups. Much of the \"identity\" politics groupings, with the exception of radicals like the League of Black Revolutionary Workers and the Dodge Revoultionary Union Movement, haven\'t had much to do with organized labor. Anarchists, outside of support for dual unionism of the IWW or IWA have largely rejected articipating in unions as anarchists in any kind of collective way. The CP, WWP, SWP and a few Trot sects still are involved with organized labor, but really thats it. Sweeney is a member of the DSA. If you leave the political space of organized labor only to authoritarians and reformists, don\'t be suprised if organized labor is authoritarian and reformist. What if anarchists had abandoned summit protests after the first first Trot paper seller showed up?

Anyway, breifly explain what an anti-work, anti-democratic, anti-union struggle against capitalism and wage slavery would look like? Most of the attempts to describe an alternative to unions, are unions by another name.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 03:21 PM CDT
\"it should be recognized as well that among the working class, unionized labor is generally the best paid and lives the cushiest lives.\"


Could that possibly be because those workers have organized on a collective basis through direct action (largely the selective withdrawl of their labor and efficency) to reduce their rate of exploitation.


\"Its contracts are really formalized systems through which surplus value extracted from non-unionized labor in the Third World or non-whites in America is channeled to purchase the passivity of the union workforce\"


I would argue that the quest of capitalists for profits, when facing an organized working class domestically is to reconfigure their enterprise by outsourcing both regionally (say break up the plant into smaller pieces and moving it to North Carolina), and internationally (sweatshops of the global south... and thus the importance of trade deals like NAFTA/FTAA and the WTO). The attempt to extract surplus value from the global south is a neo-colonial form of capitalist reaction. A similar situation has been going on for longer in Europe which has a higher union density, more militant struggles... and a growing level of unemployment.


Far from being a passive element in the crisises of capitalism, the proletariat can be quite active in creating those crisises by their growing demands.


\"in combination with other white supremacist privileges and nationalist flag-waving distractions\"

People of color tend to be unionized at a higher rate than white workers these days. Particularly when you talk about growing unions and in a global context.


\" It should be remembered that unions can also be important to fascist organizing, which is a tendency I think we see here and pro-union anarchists and leftists seem to want everyone to forget.\"

Almost anything can be used by fascists for their organizing, particularly post-leftist, deep ecology ideas. We just don\'t toss \"fascist\" around all the time. If you take a look at contemporary fascists in the U.S. they don\'t seem to be doing much in the area of organized labor. Infact, the AFL-CIO has reversed some of it\'s policies in regards to immigration... particularly with growing unions based in service industries like HERE and SEIU. By no means is this a universal. There is still alot of racism and bigotry in the construction unions, for example.


So, the politicians at the Workers Memorial day didn\'t care for anarchists being there. Suprise, suprise. What should have you done? Not attendend and not dialogued with those actual workers that were there. That said, attendance of a labor fat cat affair is no indication of the militancy of the participants (actually, I think it\'s more an indication of their tie to the bureacracy rather than militancy).


Good luck with the real work of opting out!


We have argued previously that if there is to be an \"anti-capitalist movement\" then it must constitute itself as the proletariat, the determinate negation of capital. This would means not only breaking with the liberal-leftist hegemony, but also - and indeed crucially - connecting practically with other sections of the world proletariat.


In terms of breaking with the liberal-leftist hegemony, the emphasis on ideas and ideologues in the present article in part merely reflects the fact that the anti-

comment by giuseppe
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 03:35 PM CDT
poor flint and the rest of the workerists, they just don\'t understand the lessons of the history of organized crime--oops, i mean labor. the union movement in the usa has been tied to organized crime since the end of the 1890\'s (regardless of the previous presence of anarchists and socialists); the notorious deal of the fbi with the atlantic longshore union to purge communists and defeat fascist saboteurs gave \"lucky\" luciano a free ticket back to sicily after the italian surrender in wwii (and from there, he was able to destroy the communist-dominated unions and anti-fascist movements). back in the usa, the purges of any and all remnants of the commies and wobblies from the cio (before it got tacked on to the afl) led to the final demise of anything slightly radical or slightly critical of capitalism within unions in america. even in europe, with a real history of a combative working class (organized in unions or not), unions have put the brakes on all manifestations of proletarian self-organization since 1914. to be radical, anti-capitalist, \"democratic\" etc, workers must organize outside of and even against the traditional formations of the unions--yes, even the syndicalist ones. keeping the system of wages intact (whether determined with money, credits, barter, labor vouchers, etc), keeping the system of industrial production intact (with the resource and capital extraction in the 3rd and 4th worlds), keeping the system of dividing workers from peasants/farmers/unemployed (unemployable) intact, the union is a force for counter-revolution.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 04:06 PM CDT
Poor me. It\'s to bad I\'m such an ignorant worker. Otherwise I\'d realized that organizing on a collective basis with my fellow workers to reduce the rate of exploitation in the present was actually just keeping the system of wages intact and keeping me divided from others.


Actually, I\'d argue that organizing to decrease the rate of exploitation actually works to throw capitalism into crisis. And further, that organizing on a basis of class does much to unite the divided proletariat (including farmers, students and the unemployed) as struggles grow, rather than dividing it.


If the removal of radicals from the union movement caused a reduction in the militancy of unions and a loss of criticisms of capital... (as was intended by those doing the purging) then it would sound like the reintroduction of anarchists into popular broadbased struggles of our class would have the opposite effect of helping to radicalize those struggles.


Also, there is the annoying fact that the level of sabotage, work stoppages and hidden resistance to capitalism by workers is higher in those workplaces that have a union, compared to those that do not.


THE REFUSAL OF WORK: MYTH OR REALITY?

This seventies-era \'The Refusal Of Work\" has to be looked at in its specific context, steering clear both of over-exaggeration and under- appreciation. Despite the surface radicalism in form, underneath of all the labor militancy of the late 60s was still was a belief in sharing a bit of the pie, in other words, the form may have been more radical but the content was not. This is not to deny the importance of the 1960s era struggles but to merely approach these struggles realistically, acknowledging them for what they were rather then retrospectively over-estimating them for what they were not. As The Sojourner Truth Organization, a group influenced by CLR James and one of the few groups who were involved in factory organizing during this period, could write at the height of the 70s \"refusal of work\":


\"From the beginning of our work we have had practical evidence that we were wrong in the assessment that the unions would be an important initial obstacle to organizing workers along our perspective. On the contrary, the reality of low levels of struggles, of primitive forms of struggles and of sporadic and episodic character to struggle have been much more striking than has the ability of trade unions to suppress struggle. Frankly, there isn\'t all that much to suppress.\"(\"Production Work\", 1973, \"Workplace Papers\")

Truthfully, this \"refusal of work\", to the extent that it existed, was much more widespread in those sectors of industry that were already unionized and guaranteed. \"The refusal of work\" rarely surfaced in the wider range of workplace settings where no such guarantees existed; the \'secondary\' tier tackled in the labor market segmentation analysis. This secondary tier of jobs was present in manufacturing and elsewhere, but especially visible in retailing, distribution, services etc. where wages were low, protections few and a system of bureaucratized administration absent; in what has been aptly described as a labor market divided into a core and several peripheries.


As an under-legal working age teenager, I was hired on in several Baltimore plastics factories during this \"refusal of work\" period in the mid 70s. At the time, the draft was still in effect even if you weren\'t subject to being called-up for active duty This meant that to get most jobs, you had to produce proof of your registration status at the time of employment. Since I was ducking draft registration, the only jobs that were open to me were in this secondary, non-unionized sector. Working in these plastics factories, which intentionally hired young people like myself who were avoiding the draft, meant you were at the mercy of the harshest working conditions. For example, no breaks or no lunch hours were ever provided; if you were lucky you had to squeeze in the time to eat at your machinery - if you could find the time, that is. Ditto for bathroom breaks. Unsurprisingly, there was no \'refusal of work\" ever shown in any of these settings. That today, these same plastics factories are most likely hiring undocumented immigrants, who also are a bit short of another kind of \"the proper papers\" strikes me not so much as a case of qualitative shift as much as it is a case of a HORIZONTAL shift in oppressive conditions. \"

Fragile Properity, Fragile Social Peace: Notes on the U.S., Curtis Price, Collective Action Notes

comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 04:14 PM CDT
When you think of poor non-whites as having always been the true revolutionary (that is, the most exploited, from slaves to current Mexican immigrants) subject in America, and combine that with the way that unions act in terms of corralling and pacifying resistance among workers, it should not be surprising that unions are turning their eyes towards recruiting more non-whites. Their job, like that of political parties, is to preserve capitalism, after all, so it only makes sense that they would focus on pacifying this super-exploitated segment of society (even so, though, we are talking about a tiny minority of workers, white or non-white, who are in unions). Capitalism uses different tactics on different groups. For instance, for blacks in this country capitalism and the state have opted to utilize prisons and militarized law enforcement as the primary methods of keeping them down. Genocide and the reservation system has been used against indigenous people.

However, that does not change the fact that white supremacy has traditionally been the glue that held this American capitalist society together, whether we\'re talking about union or non-union labor. I have done enough work with union rank-and-file (as well as having spent time working in a union shop - which really turned me against unions, by the way) over the years to know this is true both first hand and from readings of history (and it only makes sense that these two would compliment each other, after all). It is the special privileges given to white workers that buys their loyalty to capitalism here. Those privileges in the context of the union come in terms of first hired/last fired and a small (albeit pathetically small) bit of surplus value that has been taken from the most exploited at the bottom. Outside of the workplace, such privileges manifest in terms of better housing, better access to schooling (which provides access to better jobs - and of course schools are how society domesticates children, so we should not be for more schools) and relative freedom from police harrassment and brutality (which poor whites often approve of when its applied against non-whites, thus betraying their loyalties).

As an aside, one thing I am really noticing a lot of is the tendency of left anarchists to assume that simply because one does not advocate work through unions or other traditionally leftist methods of organizing, that one is inactive or dropping out. When I refer to opting out above, what I mean is that the super-exploited here, and most people in general, have determined for themselves that unions and parties are irrelevant to them and simply decided not to participate. To refuse, that is. And that\'s not a bad thing. I know many people, myself included, who reject the conventional leftist dogma about what struggles are worthwhile and yet have found no shortage of places to put their energies towards revolutionary ends. Issues surrounding police brutality, homelessness and gentrification are big issues here in Phoenix, for instance. As what would be probably considered an \"anti-organizational anarchist\" by leftists, I certainly find plenty of such projects to work on. The leftists need to get off their high horse. And, by the way, the challenge is not for me to opt out, but rather for left anarchists to convince everyone else to opt in. Although, much thanks for the wishes of good luck anyhow (although Flint may not like the use to which I put it).
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 04:14 PM CDT
There is a lot of jumping around on this thread so far. Basically it sounds like everyone just wants to say what they think the word \"union\" means rather than deciding what it means and forging ahead strategically ... which is a shame, because I think this article is meant to provoke discussions of strategy rather than the typical post-leftist bickering.

Flint is right -- organized collectives which do work *is* anarchism. I suppose you could have an organized collective which only does leisure activities, but that won\'t put bread on the table. The people in these organized collectives who do the work are *workers*. We cannot dismiss the entire history of thought on what it means to be a worker, how to organize ourselves so that work is fair.

How can anarchists positively impact unions they might be in? Is it worthwhile to start a traditional unionizing campaign with the hopes that anarchist tendencies can overwhelm it? How can anarchists become active in revolutionizing the situation of the growing service sector workers?

I\'m sick of hearing people say that such-and-such is \"counter-revolutionary\" without providing a positive analysis of what should be done. If you have no thoughts on anarchist strategy, then you arent an anarchist in my book -- you are a philosopher. Get out of the way.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 04:40 PM CDT
Flint writes:

\"Practically, what does this mean? If the anarchist stance to organized labor (and do you mean all forms of organized labor here, every AFL-CIO local, the UE, the IWW, the SAC, Spanish CGT and CNT, and even \"workers councils\" in the council communist sense?) is to be a hostile one, does that mean anarchists should smash unions. Burn down the union halls, break strikes, undermine solidarity through scabbing, not joining the union (if there is one already at your workplace), voting against any union in an NLRB election, rejecting participation in a recognition strike (ie, keep working and scabbing)? What does opposing organized labor as much as the bosses mean practically?\"

When I use the term \"organized labor,\" I use it in the popular sense, i.e. big labor and its role in the capitalist system. To some extent, Wayne\'s piece advocates a critical stance towards Big Labor, but it isn\'t even as hostile as the stance promoted by anarcho-syndicalists. I\'m talking here of the big unions: AFL-CIO, Teamsters, and so on. On the practical level, I can\'t say much because not much has been done in this area. I would imagine that we need some kind of network of radicalized workers who are organizing and dissenting on the job. At the same time, I think we should be hostile towards reformist attempts, including anarchists, to get workers into \"official unions.\" As some of you know, I\'ve been very critical of the IWW\'s recent slippage into legitimizing the role of the NLRB in representing worker interests. Even if we are going to support the idea of radical unions, there is simply no reason why any radical union should participate in the capitalist system of determing union \"legitimacy.\"

\" Like much of the post-left rheotic, the practical suggestions are non-existant, and if you guess at what they might be, they sound reactionary.\"

Flint, I take this as a diss of the post-left tendency, which is certainly not as monolithic s some anarchist reactionaries would characterize it. The post-left tendency is made up of a diverse network of radicals who are interested in talking about anarchism and activism in the era of post-Leftism. We are not *against* the Left, rather, we are interested in exploring ideas and practical strategies that are needed in the post-Left world. In other words, ten years after the fall of the Soviet Union and in an era where the old authoritarian left is dying out, what should we be doing differently?

\" If organized labor is such an important tool to the capitalist class, then why do capitalists (individually and collectively) seek to weaken organized labor wherever they can. It\'s only when they fail to stop it, do they try and recuperate and coopt it into the system. The neo-liberal program has pretty much been a rejection of capitalists of the capitalist-AFL-CIO cooperation of Keynesism. \"

The role of the AFL-CIO and other mainstream unions in policing worker revolt is pretty widely known among radicals. Capitalism requires some kind of safety valve to divert worker revolt and dissent. Organized labor has played this role for a long time, in fact, this is why the capitalist class accepted the legtimacy of the AFL-CIO in the 1930s. The alternative was the IWW and illegible and uncontrollable worker revolt. Unions work with the capitalist class--they do not oppose capitalism.

\"Democracy in a voluntary association of workers in reducing their exploitation has often been an anarchist principle. What are the alternatives? An anti-democratic top down structure?\"

The alternatives are organizations and forms of association that meet the needs of workers. Democracy is a nice idea, but democracy in a hierarchical organization should not be the project of anarchists. In other words, subvert the AFL-CIO to radicalize workers, but don\'t waste your time trying to reform the institution.

\"Or no collective decision-making structure at all, in which every act of individual worker rebellion is made in isolation. That is not to say that union democracy should have a monopoly on action, but rather... if there is a collective decision, it should be democratic (what kind of democracy workers prefer... concensus, super-majority, whatever, is up to them). \"

I don\'t think we disagree about the need for democratic decision-making, but Wayne is simply suggesting that anarchists continue the Left\'s project of engagement with the traditional, hierarchical unions. Given our resources, it doesn\'t make any sense to reform labor institutions that should be eliminated.

\" I don\'t see any blue collar bias in Wayne\'s piece. While there are blue collar examples, Wayne also praises the communal interests that teachers, nurses, and librarians put forth.\"

There is plenty of evidence that Wayne is thinking about labor in traditional forms. Where is there any mention of office workers? Where is there any recognition that capitalism no longer resembles the capitalism of 100 years ago?

\" 3) The appeal of anti-work rhetoric is overblown. Organized labor (whether industrial, agrarian, or
service) moving from the withdrawl of productive (through sabotage and strike) and organized consumption (tennat\'s unions, rent strikes, boycotts, etc...) leading onto insurrection is the only thing that has ever really challenged capitalism. Workers in the Global South still organize unions, in industries that primarily export to the G-7. Why do they bother? Because that is where they work and where they encounter exploitation on a daily basis. The Bangladesh Garmet Workers Union could teach all the anti-workers in North America a thing or two. They are struggling for basic neccessities like shorter hours, more pay, and not being locked in the factory so they won\'t be burned to death when a fire breaks out. Anarchists don\'t have to justify the existence of a factory, or capitalism... that they exist is already apparent. The question is how to fight them, and anti-work rhetoric is only that and lacks any kind of serious praxis that can actually lead to a future of less work.\"

This has nothing to do with anti-work \"rhetoric\"--Flint is constructing another workerist strawman against those of us who talk about anti-work. The fact is that workers are as much against work as they are about having control over their labor. All of these tactics--sit down strikes, general strikes, slowdowns--are related to the idea that wage slavery sucks. The radical labor movement even has a history of anti-work sensibility--look at all of those iWW songs from the early 20th century.

If we are serious about creating an anarchist world free of bosses and capitalism, then we have to recognize that the ongoing struggle against work is an important one to support and nurture.

>>Labor and the Left

\"Much of the authoritarian left (and not so authoritarian) have little to no role in organized labor. The maoists (MIM, RCP) largely reject involvement since they regard all North American workers as hopleless corrupted by capitalism as \"labor aristocrats\". The ISO is based on campus. The Greens are notoriously weak when it comes to organized labor, the same could be said for most of the ecologically centered groups. Much of the \"identity\" politics groupings, with the exception of radicals like the League of Black Revolutionary Workers and the Dodge Revoultionary Union Movement, haven\'t had much to do with organized labor. Anarchists, outside of support for dual unionism of the IWW or IWA have largely rejected articipating in unions as anarchists in any kind of collective way. The CP, WWP, SWP and a few Trot sects still are involved with organized labor, but really thats it. Sweeney is a member of the DSA. If you leave the political space of organized labor only to authoritarians and reformists, don\'t be suprised if organized labor is authoritarian and reformist. What if anarchists had abandoned summit protests after the first first Trot paper seller showed up?\"

Flint again misses my point. Yes, the authoritarian, sectarian left has little impact these days on organized labor, but I\'m talking about their theory and practice towards labor. Yes, the ISO is mostly a compus-based movement, but they still have a program of trying to influence and reform big unions. The socialists and communists in America used to have more influence on organized labor and they haven\'t forgotten this. What\'s important to look at is their rhetoric and how closely it resembles the workerist rhetoric and practice of some anarchists who haven\'t adopted a critical post-leftism stance. This can be seen most clearly when some anarchists make dogmatic pronouncements that \"unions are the only way to organize an anarchist revolution.\" Why? What kind of evidence and experience supports this? We haven\'t had an anarchist revolution, so it\'s incredibly arrogant to say that there is only *one way* to achieve revolution. What\'s more annoying is how these purported advocates for workers throw around words like \"class,\" \"labor,\" and so on, like these are immutable concepts. Class in America is certainly different than it was 20 years ago. Organizing workers into workplace-based unions makes little sense in a capitalist economy where the bosses don\'t give a damn if they have to fire unionizing workers. They have so de-skilled labor that it just might be that workplace-based unions are an anachronism.

\"Anyway, breifly explain what an anti-work, anti-democratic, anti-union struggle against capitalism and wage slavery would look like? Most of the attempts to describe an alternative to unions, are unions by another name.\"

It\'s kind of unfair to characterize alternatives to unions as being \"unions by another name.\" My original post was even about unions in general, it was about organized labor and suggestions that anarchists should reform these big unions.

It is quite dishonest to characterize my post as being anti-union and anti-democratic. Please read what I\'ve written before characterizing labelling me. This doesn\'t surprise me, since it seems to be a new trend within anarchism: label and mischaracterize your opponents instead of addrssing their arguments.

I picked up the new issue of ASR this weekend and see that there are several knee-jerk attempts to mischaracterize the post-left tendency. I look forward to making mincemeat out of these rants.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 04:41 PM CDT
No one is denying the existence of white supremacy, nor that labor unions in the U.S. have often been divided by race. The IWW and other radical unions fought for mixed-locals. In the 60s and 70s in the face of racist strikes by whites to keep black workers out of the factory, out of the better jobs and out of the union... they were opposed by the likes of the League of Black Revolutionary Workers. While the organized \"outside the union\" to the degree that they organized a seperate political organization, they did so to influence their fellow workers and change the union. The Dodge Revolutionary Union Movement had a program in regards to the UAW which is worth looking at today.

  • The complete accountability to the Black majority of the entire membership
  • All union decisions will coincide directly with the wishes of that majority.

  • Advocating a revolutionary change in the UAW (including a referendum vote and revive the grievance procedure).

  • Public denouncement of the racial practices within the UAW.

  • A refusal to be dictated to by the International staff of the UAW.

  • Total involvement in policy by that workers as opposed to dictatorship by the executive board.


Basically an democratic, anti-bureacratic, anti-racist platform. I don\'t know what world some people live in, but alot of folks end up in a lot of jobs that are fucked up in alot of ways. The question is if you move on to somewhere else and opt out (if you have that privilege!) or if you fight where you are.

I think many workers find unions much more relevant to them, than they find the anarchist \"movement\". That\'s why they union rate has remained constant in 2001 at 13.5 percent of wage and salary workers, unchanged from 2000; despite the attacks of capitalists on unions through downsizing, outsourcing, etc... there is enough growth to hold steady. That\'s some 16.3 million people. Some people do fight for unions in their workplaces. And those struggles have done more damage to capitalist\'s profits than all the broken windows of all the globalization protests.

I really do encourage your involvement in struggles against police brutality, homelessness and gentrification. I\'d suggest that going about such activity in an organized basis would lead to more success, but you\'ll probably disagree with me on that.

comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 04:42 PM CDT
No one is denying the existence of white supremacy, nor that labor unions in the U.S. have often been divided by race. The IWW and other radical unions fought for mixed-locals. In the 60s and 70s in the face of racist strikes by whites to keep black workers out of the factory, out of the better jobs and out of the union... they were opposed by the likes of the League of Black Revolutionary Workers. While the organized \"outside the union\" to the degree that they organized a seperate political organization, they did so to influence their fellow workers and change the union. The Dodge Revolutionary Union Movement had a program in regards to the UAW which is worth looking at today.

  • The complete accountability to the Black majority of the entire membership
  • All union decisions will coincide directly with the wishes of that majority.

  • Advocating a revolutionary change in the UAW (including a referendum vote and revive the grievance procedure).

  • Public denouncement of the racial practices within the UAW.

  • A refusal to be dictated to by the International staff of the UAW.

  • Total involvement in policy by that workers as opposed to dictatorship by the executive board.


Basically an democratic, anti-bureacratic, anti-racist platform. I don\'t know what world some people live in, but alot of folks end up in a lot of jobs that are fucked up in alot of ways. The question is if you move on to somewhere else and opt out (if you have that privilege!) or if you fight where you are.

I think many workers find unions much more relevant to them, than they find the anarchist \"movement\". That\'s why they union rate has remained constant in 2001 at 13.5 percent of wage and salary workers, unchanged from 2000; despite the attacks of capitalists on unions through downsizing, outsourcing, etc... there is enough growth to hold steady. That\'s some 16.3 million people. Some people do fight for unions in their workplaces. And those struggles have done more damage to capitalist\'s profits than all the broken windows of all the globalization protests.

I really do encourage your involvement in struggles against police brutality, homelessness and gentrification. I\'d suggest that going about such activity in an organized basis would lead to more success, but you\'ll probably disagree with me on that.

comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 04:44 PM CDT
I\'d like to mention that I\'m re-organizing Infoshop\'s \"Labor Kiosk\" into a new project I\'m calling \"Workers Against Work.\" While I intend to remain an IWW member, I\'ve decided that my labor activism would be better spent developing a network of radical workers who seek to challenge capitalism in the workplace, without allowing their anger to be co-opted into unions.

The URL: http://www.infoshop.org/labor_kiosk.html
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 04:45 PM CDT
Not to dominate this thread (I\'ll stop posting for a bit after this), but I think the point of what I was saying was that I do not believe union organizing to be a place where anarchists ought to be focusing their energies, for all the reasons listed above. Instead, I encourage anarchists to look to other struggles, like police brutality, for instance, and to put their energies into those precisely because they challenge the state, provide a critique of capitalism, and deal directly with the issue of white supremacy. In a post-industrial society, after all, what\'s the point of spending all our energy collectivizing what we\'re just going to abandon once we\'ve overturned capitalism and the state. Work has little meaning for people, these days, in terms of personal fullfillment and relationship to real needs. Why should we make it our primary arena of organizing, then? There are two collectives here in Phoenix that do police brutality organizing that involves directly and routinely confronting the cops. One is based on traditional leftist organizing methods, and one is based on \"anti-organizational\" methods (the only one that is explicitly anarchist). I am involved in both, although my preference is obvious, I\'m sure. But, of course, workers will collectivize whatever work still needs to be done after the revolution (however little that is - see ChuckO\'s post). I\'m not arguing with that. What I am arguing, however, is that the union is not the tool to do that with. It is still possible to be organized informally in your workplace and there are all kinds of sabotage and theft that take place in shit jobs through informal networks like hook-ups and discounts and \"lost merchandise\". I find these types of organizing preferrable because they are not so open to disruption by the union leadership or the boss. So, unions have no monopoly on resistance (although history shows they\'d like to have one). And, in fact what I am saying is that I reject union organizing as a strategy for revolution.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 04:48 PM CDT
I\'d like to mention that I\'m re-organizing Infoshop\'s \"Labor Kiosk\" into a new project I\'m calling \"Workers Against Work.\" While I intend to remain an IWW member, I\'ve decided that my labor activism would be better spent developing a network of radical workers who seek to challenge capitalism in the workplace, without allowing their anger to be co-opted into unions.

The URL: http://www.infoshop.org/labor_kiosk.html
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 05:00 PM CDT
I\'m glad to hear somebody here saying that they reject union-organizing as a road to revolution. Fortunately, more anarchists are coming around to this point of view. We have very little practical knowledge about how to organize the \"revolution,\" but we do have over a century of experience with the approach of using unions to achieve this goal. The verdict is not pretty for those who favor unions as the method for achieving radical social change. The supporters of this strategy will argue that radical unionism has been eclipsed by big unions and that if they only had the chance, radical unions would be an effective strategy.

This, of course, misses the lessons we learned from history. There are solid reasons why radical unions like the IWW were eliminated and refromist, pro-capitalist unions like the AFL-CIO were embraced by the capitalist class. This is a basic aspect of political power and there are other lessons that go back for centuries. Capitalism needs a release valve for worker dissent and unions fill that role. Flint questions why capitalism has so weakened unions, suggesting that unions are not a safety valve. Actually, the capitalist class *has* gone too far in weakening unions, to the point where worker revolt and actions is bound to rise out of control in the near future. The people at Focus on the Global South have a nice handout about this, which talks about the \"weakening of the social conract.\" It includes a timeline that nicely illustrates this dance between excessive boss power and worker dissent.
comment by dadanarchist
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 05:12 PM CDT
The problem with most unions I\'ve ever encountered is that they start of revolutionary and slip into reformism. At least in the U.S. Perhaps this is a reflection of the general level of political consciousness of the American working class (while often anti-corporate, they are also anti-left) or perhaps it is a function of capitalist cooption, or both, I don\'t really know. The problem is that unions to be effective and to attract membership need to deliver solid gains - and that involves negotiationg with management and through the NLRB, the government. Once radical unions get tied down in fighting over particulars and small gains, and the revolutionary aspects remain solely in the domain of rhetoric. There is lots of revolutionary sloganeering, very little revolutionary action. Though the IWW here in Portland did carry out workplace occupations over greivances. And they also submitted to NLRB adjudication. So we have two trends - direct action and government regulation. Direct action is anarchist - there is absolutely no way any government arbitration can be considered anarchist. Anyway.....

I think that anarchists wanting to work with the labor movement should give up on the dreams of anarchist unions, at least for the time being, and work on forming groups within workplaces. Be it a reading group, lecture group, cultural group, council, what have you, some sort of non-official organization that could serve to encourage self-education amongst the working class on issues of labor, anarchism, socialism, unions, etc. The advantage to this is that less energy has to be expended on workplace struggles or defending gains, and more emphasis can be placed on raising class consciousness. Eventually, such a group could form a caucus within the local union - what they could achieve is questionable, as most locals are authoritarian through and through.

What\'s the problem with being anti-work? Most of the people on this planet are anti-work. Work sucks, even if you are unionized, like myself.
comment by js
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 05:23 PM CDT
anti organizational, workerist, blah blah blah blah. Why doesnt everyone in this thread go out and actually figure out what works best instead of arguing with each other about pointless things. One thing i find pretty funny is the definition of \"anti-organizational\" what the hell does that mean. I find that people who claim to be \"anti-organizational\" have just as much or more formal organization compared to a left organization. If were talking about phoenix organizing, its completely ignorant to not recognize the correlation beetween pac(an organization) and a dramatic spike in anarchist and radical activity.
p.s. i have a gigantic 30 gallon tub of pamphlets destined for your house necrotic state.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 05:32 PM CDT
The IWW\'s (and other unions) uses of the NLRB comes from a point of weakness, rather than strength. Some folks think it\'s a shortcut and \"easier\" than organizing a recognition strike. In some ways it is easier, but the you can end up with recognition, but without a union of workers willing to engage in militant action. Some of the AFL-CIO, like HERE, CWA, SEIU, and UNITE have abandonened the NLRB election in favor of winning card check nuetrality through direct action or outright recognition strikes.

Like you I would advocate the formation of anarchist groups (on the basis of their politics, no less!) within our workplaces, and that they remain seperate from the union bureacracy. That those groups advocate anarchist principles, raise class conciousness, and seek to expand our struggles. That said, whether we are anarchists or not, when there is a workplace struggle, or gains to be defended--we have to expend energy in that struggle--or it will fail. Unless workers organize to either create a new form of workers organization that is anti-authoritarian in their workplace, or reform the existing one to an anti-authoritarian structure; then we should be suprised that they are authoritarian through and through.

I like to say, \"the revolution does not compromise\". What I mean by that, is while we as individuals have to survive under capitalism and the state, that often requries alot of compromise. As such, the institutions we create to get better compromises, are by their nature compromising. The revolution is a process and an idea, and really can\'t be embodied into the monopoy of one organization, but rather when it happens it supercedes those structures that we created to survive with. I think we get to that point by winning reforms that build dual power through direct action that is organized directly democratically. We gain confidence, experience and our gains work to throw capitalism and the state into crisis.

As to the labelling that goes about, I don\'t think most people on the planet identify with the \"anti-work\" political philosophy. Just as I don\'t know of many folks who would choose the label \"workerist\". Rather, those are labels the self-identified post-left places on others. While I greatly want to reduce the amount of work I have to do, I realize that it\'s total elimination (renaming it \"play\" not sufficing) is impossile; but if we want to talk about total elimination of the alienation of labor... we\'ll that\'s going to mean the abolishment of capitalism. Anyway, my problem with \"anti-work\" rhetoric is it has often struck me as a horribly academic and semantic debate.

comment by hpwombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 06:10 PM CDT
From my own experiences for tactics the workers themselves would use, the workers would collectively steal from the workplace and sell the product for extra money. This continued for a good while until they hired in an unnecessary supervisor to make sure we don\'t steal stuff...though that wasn\'t his \"official\" reason for being there. Taking in my constiuency, primarily professional thieves and drug dealers, along with two anarchists, and two reformist socialists (all just happened to fall into the same workplace) I decided to use an insurrectionary mutualism, exposing the huge amount of money we would would be making if we didn\'t have these bosses and ran it ourselves and how utterly useless they all are and we\'d be better without them. Expose that this supervisor is just an unnecessary thug and back up everything I said with things that the bosses said at meetings or how they acted and telling them all that the bosses would do to sell the product (it was a warehouse), so they\'d know they are being ripped off by some scheisters.

What really made them go, was all this knowledge, and then not getting the raises they needed along with changing the day for our checks. So we walked out. After a hour and a half, we came back, sat down at the lunch table, and discussed amongst ourselves what to do. And we decided we needed a union, rumors that cameras were going to be put in, along with rumors that they might fire the whole crew made it necessary that we seek help. We fought over which union, and because of the disagreement over Union, we never organized in time. They picked off the main suspects one by one over a month, along with hiring on the management\'s family and friends of the family which made the rest stop activities, and all talk of a union was over, we had been suppressed.

So anyways, illegal activities really empower those that take the risk, but if it makes a real impact, its lack of outside solidarity could just get everyone fired or an increase in security that would make it ineffective.

Had we organized the union, the plan was to stay collectively organized in resistance to the union and the boss as if we were the controllers, and force the unions to compete for our dues if they didn\'t agree to the terms we demanded they demand from the boss.

Would this attempt be concidered anti-work or organizational?
comment by too tired
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 06:27 PM CDT
While Chuck and some others have commented heavily on how unions are a tool to suppress workers rebellion and is part of the capitalist oppression machine (rightly so) Flint was initially really pointing out why this was the situation and was offering perspectives on how to change this situation. It\'s not like he\'s advocating a membership drive into whatever idle union, he\'s advocating a plan of militancy through unions.

I respect and identify the stance of being anti work, especially if its \"workers against work\" lie chuck puts it. I don\'t want to be doing the same shitty job in an anarchist society. However the only way I\'ll ever get rid of this job could be organizing in a union, because all of those demands or \"reforms\" really end up being impossible for the state and capitalism to satisfy, and that could create what Flint calls a \"crisis\". As far as I\'m concerned, when I join a union, I\'m still as anti-work as I was before.

If anti-work is something like \"dropping out\" of the system, I think that is just a middel class youth\'s priviledge and ignores the fact that it\'s not like I chose this shit job because I\'m secretly a freedom hating wanna-be-slave but because I need to make a living...

take it easy, and discuss to cooperate...
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 06:28 PM CDT
Sounds like a good scam.

To bad you couldn\'t keep it going.

Seems like you got all the workers together, made a decision to look the other way as you all lifted stuff, and when that came under fire from a new boss, made a collective decision to walk out. You then collectively decided you needed a moral formal organization to collectively bargain with your boss to hopefully to get your raises (since theft was becoming impossible) and hopefully get rid of the new supervisor.

And then, when it got to the question of how to organize (or rather, which pre-existing union to seek support; you could have setup your own independent union), you all couldn\'t reach a collective decision. I imagine the choices were form an independent union, got IWW, or go for a more reformist union that had more resources but where you would have lost some of your autonomy.
It\'s a decision you didn\'t make in time, it seems. Any of those decisions would have worked (or atleast worked more than not making the decision).

Got to have unity in workplace actions. It\'s too easy to pick off individuals one-by-one.

I\'d say you were going about it in an organized fashion. But the lack of ideological unity (what kind of union you wanted) led to a lack of tactical unity (actually organizing the union), which led to defeat.

It sounds like your idea of keeping the folks together in opposition to the union bureacracy and the boss, even after you set up a union to formalize the collective bargaining, was a really good idea.
comment by Duke
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 07:01 PM CDT
Wow. I honestly don\'t know where to begin in commenting on this thread. Its all over the place. If the point of many of the posts here is to say that unions are bureacratic and the leadership are selling out the working class... well, duh. What\'s your point. Who argues against that? Certainly not the rank and file in unions. If the point is to say that unions are not revolutionary... again, who contradicts that? The issue is whether people organizing collectively can help create a class conciousness and further revolutionary goals. This happens in union organizing. I can\'t give you any theoretical reasons why that happens. I don\'t have any degrees. I don\'t intellectualize the whole world around me. I worked in shitty jobs, unionized some of them and lived the rise in militancy, strength, and power that went along with us taking control of our work lives. Pro-union anarchists aren\'t workerist (whatever that means). Organizing reduces the amount of work we have to do to support ourselves and our families under the oppressive system of capitalist exploitation.

Why do so many anarchists see the world in single issue terms? The call to avoid unions to do copwatch or some other type of great organizing doesn\'t make sense. We need to be doing anarchist organizing, outreach, and education in the totality of our lives, not just parts of them. Confront police brutality. Confront racist dominance. Confront male dominance. Confront the state. Confront ecologic destruction. Confront our fucking bosses. Revolution isn\'t going to happen piecemeal. We need to confront our destruction and exploitation as a whole. Everything we do isn\'t going to be directly revolutionary, but it will forward the cause of destroying the various ways that ruling elite (corporate, state, union bosses, etc.) divide us. If we look at single issue approaches only, we will lose. If we organize collectively in all these aspects of our activism, we can at least have the hope of winning. Personally, I refuse to allow the bosses to drive me out. I take a stand. I fight them in their own court. Millions of people do it every year. Honestly, I don\'t care if anyone joins some official union or not. I think its more practical to do so, but if you don\'t want to then form a group of workers at your job and confront the bosses that way. It isn\'t that hard. You don\'t need some union fat cat to tell you how to do it. The same tactics that work against the police and nazis work against the boss.

I constantly see debates on this site between anarchists fighting over which part small part of our lives we should be organizing around. Destructive technology dehumanizes us. Bosses dehumanize us. Cops and the prison system dehumanize us. Patriarchy dehumanizes us. Etc. Yeah. We need to take all of that on to reach a point where rulers of whatever sort don\'t exist. This anarchist anti-union stance is intellectualism at its worst. Some people need to stop their economic exploitation directly and really can\'t sit around theorizing about why they shouldn\'t.

Duke
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 07:05 PM CDT
Just for the record:

1. Sitting around stoned in a convenience store with 3 of your friends stealing Slushies is no more or less revolutionary than trying to organize each other.

2. \"Anti-work\" sounds stupid to me, most probably because it is so often built on stupid ideas. When there\'s no more capitalism, where will Food Not Bombs get its food, since all the actual workers will now be standing in line behind you, waiting to get the \"non-work\" food that no one worked to grow and therefore there is none? Or will it be like the \"democratic\" anarchist organizations of today, where the group is 90% slackers and 10% people who actually do something?

We need to think a lot harder if we think that a 100-year tradition of militant union organizing is going to be replaced \"you know, anti-work, man\" ...
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 07:28 PM CDT
Again, I would like to comment on the tendency of some to point to anyone who questions the learned anarchist traditionalists and to label them as intellectual non-doers, or just talkers as if it is not possible that these ideas come out of real experience in the world. As if somehow its impossible to put these ideas into action. For instance, even when I highlight several specific ways to do such organizing, it is pooh-poohed as coming from book-learnin\' rather than real experience. As if I couldn\'t have learned to hate the cops from experience and must have read it somewhere in a book. Do those types of people really believe that such conclusions cannot come from experience, or is it more likely that they are dogmatically defending an anarchy of old that is fading away?

In my own case, my perspectives on work come precisely from working one shit job after another. When I first read the \"Abolition of Work\", many years after becoming an anarchist and after many years of working (and after already having decided to avoid the 40 hour week at all costs), I found myself nodding along to almost every point. I knew most of the points intuitively, as do most people I know who read the essay. Good political commentary ought to be rooted in experience, after all.

And, as I said, my positions on unions came initially from my experience working in union shops (before that I generally supported them, even though I was skeptical of their potential for real change), and my experience doing support work for unions like the Roofers here in Phoenix. It just so happened that when I really began reading labor history in depth, it turned out that my experiences jived with the history. Likewise when I began to investigate the syndicalists mythology surrounding the Spanish Revolution. Big surprise. People ought not be faulted for that, and no class of anarchists should set themselves up as the vanguards of the shining path to anarchist enlightenment. Not all workers become anarchists. And not all anarchists radicalized from experience become syndicalists or anarcho-communists. To suppose so is ridiculous.

I think it is interesting to note that most of the posts here from anarcho-communists and syndicalists end with jabs at those with opposing views as inactionary intellectuals. Well, if that\'s the case, just where do all the syndicalists and anarcho-communists get their experience with, for instance, revolutionary syndicates, because I sure don\'t see any around in America outside of the history books?

But, I think it\'s important to recognize that it IS possible to focus on different areas of struggle that anarchists have traditionally ignored. While I don\'t think that anyone said that there is only one type of organizing that people should be doing (I listed three things, for instance), it should be remembered that this discussion is taking place within the context of unions. As such, I am contrasting other strategies to the topic on hand. I am not opposed to independent and informal workers councils or study groups. And, many people, white males in particular, get most of their experience with oppression in that setting. And, of course, these can happen either within the context of a unionized workplace or in non-union shops. For instance, anti-white supremacy and anti-patriarchy organizing in workplaces would definitely be worthwhile, in my opinion. However, I am saying that I believe that the struggle to build a revolutionary union movement has had its day and it failed. And in my opinion it is certainly no more relevant now then it was back then.
comment by anti-work worker
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 07:55 PM CDT
The union tradition replaced a much more militant workers tradition of informal sabotage and revolutionary violence (i.e. the Luddites and others). I\'m not saying this to be dismissive of radical unions, but rather to point out that unions replaced something that was arguably more revolutionary by nature. John Zerzan, despite his primitivism, gives a very important overview of the history of class-struggle and unionism in his book \"Elements of Refusal\". Similar writings have appeared in various anti-state communist and non-orthodox anarchist papers, like Mordicus and Wild Cat, for instance.
Anti-work ideas are foolish if they lack class-consciousness, just as syndicalist ideas are foolish if they lack class consciousness. The people who adhere to these ideas tend not to be working-class people (at least not in America), but rather middle-class intellectuals. I think that anti-work ideas are very important, because most people hate work, but the \"radical subjectivist\" attitude of \"just quite your job\" is ridiculous and counter-productive.
I think the remarks above about \"how will we get food without work\" are ridiculous because work is more than simply doing something to meet your needs. Work is forced labor, wage labor, not merely any kind of human activity. See the Anarchist FAQ link on the opening infoshop page, which makes the case that all anarchists are against work, whether green, red, or whatever, since we\'re all against wage labor and other forms of forced labor.
comment by giuseppe
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 09:40 PM CDT
poor flint. you will continue to remain as ignorant as you think you might be if you continue to identify yourself in terms of your exploitation...

and yes, organizing (collectively with your fellow workers or not) to reduce the level of exploitation really does support the wage system. any adjustment to the regime of capital is used to bolster (and extend if possible) its domination. this is the contradiction of agitiating for reforms while espousing a revolutionary perspective. pretending that such organizing is sufficient to throw capitalism into crisis is the main problem with any unionist project. capitalism is thrown into crisis for numerous reasons, not the least of which are its internal contradictions (like that between prices and wages--independent of demands for an increase in wages, which can easily be offset by an increase in prices; just look at what happened in france after the may \'68 events that nearly toppled the state). it\'s easys enough for the bosses to sack all the organizers and union members, close the shop and move it overseas to somewhere that offers a totally docile workforce (while unions offer a partially docile workforce). the idea that re-injecting anarchists (how many do you think exist in the usa? and how many of them are interested in entering the unionized workforce?) into unions in order to foment some imagined crisis for capital is the height of delusion. an extreme minority (anarchist unionists) within another minority (unionized workers in actual productive labor that might create some problems for the bosses if they went on a real strike) within yet another minority (american workers) is supposed to make anyone tremble? get real. my sense is that the increased level of slacking and sabotage at unionized shops has more to do with not being fired immediately if you\'re caught. surely you\'re not trying to create the impression that unionized workers are intrinsically more prone to sabotage? that unionized workers are more antagonistic to the bosses? man, you must be very inexperienced in the real world of real work. in my own experiences of working in open shops the union workers were the ones who policed the rest of us, getting us to be precise in our break times, making sure we didn\'t slack off, etc. they were both secure in their jobs and insecure about the non-unionized workers. why they didn\'t agitate for a closed shop i don\'t know, except for the fact that the union was for the skilled workers only. you live in a workerist fantasy land.
comment by giuseppe
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 09:46 PM CDT
it\'s telling that flint (and many other organizationalists) use the league of black revolutionary workers as their example. this outfit was a trotskyist gang that found the right place at the right time. the struggles that the league engaged in were primarily an organizing tool, to gain more members for their leninist grouplet and further their own particular agenda of creating a dictatorship of the proletariat. if you understand the goals and tactics of trotskyism, you will take a very different view of this \"democratic\" \"anti-bureaucratic\" gang.
comment by Wind
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 10:23 PM CDT
There seems to be a lot of confusion about what being anti-work means here. Anti-work does not mean sitting around apathetically. It means doing things for their *intrinsic* value rather than for the sake of obligation, status, being economically forced to or other reasons external to being happy. It requires the cultivation of what psychologists refer to as \"The Autotelic Personality.\" That is, an intense curiosity and focus on the pleasure of creative activity. Play. Yes it does change things *a lot* when they are approached as play.
I currently live a zero-work lifestyle and I am a busy person. Writing flyers and printing them up, wheat pasting, cooking for FNB, counseling friends, keeping up with the state of campaigns I work on. I could look at all of that as \"work\" and thereby play the pathetic role of self-sacrificing \"revolutionary\" martyr but what the fuck would that do for me or the movement? These things happen to be what I am good at. They make me happy. Maybe you are good at other things. Cool. Do what you love and what gives you pleasure and then find the intersection between those activites and the greater liberation project.
The best thing about that is that you develop a presence. People can tell that you are on to something in your life and they want to know about it. Non-anarchists who are not politically aware will develop respect for you and they will honestly listen to you when you talk politics. They can sense that most politcos are neurotics and it turns them off.
The real question is not which tactics are \"right\" the question is, what makes youn happy and how can that be used to help others. It becomes \"right\" as you get good at it.
I don\'t doubt that someone is going to figure out some incredible new way of approaching labor organizing. I have a sneaking suspicion that it will happen after non-labor organizing has evolved a lot. Community gardens, babysitting, farms, cultural projects, skillsharing and other activities that are both mutually pleasurable *and* reduce the cost of physical survival enough that workers can breathe easier and look at their condition with a more empowered perspective.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Monday, May 13 2002 @ 11:51 PM CDT
I really don\'t want to be totally dismissive of union organizing as a strategy for working towards an anarchist revolution, since many anarchists are involved in this work. I think we have to dismiss those who argue that union organizing is the *only* way to achieve the end of capitalism. This is dogmatic arrogance that suggests that we have plenty of empirical evidence of what works best in achieving a revolution. We have little to no knowledge of what would bring about an anarchist revolution.

Let\'s say, for example, that *revolutionary unionism* might be one tool in our revolutionary toolkit. What would this strategy look like and how is it different from the Left\'s current uncritical support for big business unions?

Here are some factors that I think need to be considered:

1) Hostility towards big unions (organized labor) - There is simply no point in working with, or trying to reform, large pro-business unions like the AFL-CIO and Teamsters. These institutions are too wedded to capitalism to be changed from within. While it might be worthwhile to educate and radicalize individual workers who belong to these unions, it is a waste of our resources to think that anything can be done with these dinosaurs.

2) Anti-work attitude - Revolutionary unions are only going to reach the hearts of workers if they recapture that anti-work (anti-wage slavery) attitude that characterized the unions of a century ago. Workers want to work less, or not at all. If we oppose capitalism and bosses, then we have to oppose wage slavery and alienating work.

3) 21st century capitalism - Advocates of revolutionary unionism need to realize that capitalism of the 21st century is different than 100 years ago. Capitalism is global and mobile--labor is not. With the deskilling and automation of work, capitalists have no reservations about firing anybody who tries to organize a union on the job.

4) Revolution not reformism - While reforms are good for workers in the short term, revolutionary unionists simply don\'t have the resources to replicate reformist unionism and have a revolutionary program at the same time. This is the trap the IWW has fallen into, with it wasting time and resources on stuff like NLRB hearings and getting contracts with employers. Those of us who are IWW members should stop fooling other workers that we have the resources to organize regular unions in their workplaces. The IWW would be better off (and might gain more members) if it ended this charade and focused on a program of revolutionary unionism.

5) Illegibility - If anarchists oppose the state, then why are labor-oriented anarchists wasting their time trying to organize unions that have official contracts and are recognized by the state? A program of revolutionary unionism should incorporate the lessons learned froma century of labor organizing, the chief one being that the state and bosses can easily crush anything with a name and address. I think we should abandon attempts to organize workers into unions that have contracts with employers and instead organize covert workplace unions, associations, and networks that are illegible to the bosses. This is one thing that capitalism cannot stand: illegible worker revolt cannot be co-opted into boss-sanctioned outlets, i.e. business unions.

6) Direct action gets the goods - We need more direct action and fewer people talking about direct action. Workers aren\'t helped either by organizations who preach direct action and who don\'t have an organized plan on how to make direct action happen.

7) Local not industrial - The idea that workers should be organized into industrial unions is an anachronism. Capitalism is much different now than it was when industrial unionism was in its heydey. Perhaps we need revolutionary unions that are community-based and that cut across occupations.

8) International solidarity - We need more international solidarity between working people, which is the best way to confront globalized capitalism. But we need to put out money where our mouth is (i.e. the IWW needs to translate materials and use non-english languages instead of issuing meaningless solidarity statements about international solidarity).

Those are just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
comment by Oncall
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 01:10 AM CDT
I think the word anti-work is stupid as well. The difference between the working class and the ruling class is we work and they don\'t, they live off the surplus labor value they expropriate from workers due to their capital rights.

I thought anti-work was stupid until I read what it meant. It\'s kind of a more radical form of \"improving work conditions\". Improving working conditions continually until work becomes less drudgery and more fun, creative and so forth. Eventually it will almost all fun play-type activities in an idyllic future. Calling this anti-work is bad PR and pisses off a lot of people who take pride in the fact that they work and the ruling class doesn\'t. Unless spelled out, it sounds very bourgeoisie. It\'s better called improving working conditions so required tasks at a job are not as boring, monotonous, menial, repetitive, not to mention difficult or even dangerous. The ruling class does no work, so they are anti-work, for themselves at least.

People on the Internet express \"anti-work\" views tend to piss off rank-and-file laborers who are proud to be workers unlike ruling class parasites. You guys should take a cue from Chomsky and explain it the way he does, which doesn\'t piss off labor - he says he wants work to be improved so people don\'t have to do menial tasks any more, and maybe eventually it will be evolved to an ideal of people do whatever they want all day. It\'s a long way from here to there, but improving working conditions is a first step.
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 01:23 AM CDT
I disagree with Flint that the example of organizing the workplace was an organized strategy. It clearly looks like you followed an anti-organizational strategy to me, and that it was only when you sought to formalize it that things fell apart. That is really what anti-organizational means - informality. I probably shouldn\'t have used that word, but I used it in reference to what other left anarchists call that type of organizing.

There are a few key parts to informal organizing, and the first is that things not be formalized (as in affiliating with a union - signing a contract, etc). Another important one is there can\'t be a formal membership (no union card). Those are the most important ones.

The strengths of this kind of organizing have already been highlighted, so I won\'t go into them again, but in my experience it is the best way to organize. The way you dealt with your situation at work was completely in line with informal organizing. You had an informal workplace theft network (formalizing it would have been a serious security risk). You informally (through direct action) expropriated from your boss to supplement your pay. You used a wildcat strike technique to exact concessions from the boss. The difference, had you been formally organized, would have been that your leadership of whatever union you joined (had you successfully done so) would have pretty much worked to stop any future wildcat or rank-and-file resistance. They would have replaced your direct action with arbitration committees and grievance resolution systems. That is, they would have pacified you.

For instance, when I was working in a APWU shop, they management decided to lay of fifty workers because our jobs had been automated. Some of us who were going to be laid off tried to organize some kind of resistance through the union but the shop steward refused to do anyhthing, insisting that if we had a greivance that there was a procedure for that. No one else felt it was their responsibility to act, so fifty (later it was more) people were laid off without even a whimper of dissent from the union.

In this sense, unions could be seen as similar to voting in that it takes what could be revolutionary acts (direct action) and substitutes them with ritualized, regular and tightly controlled outlets for dissent and limited participation. Informal organizing avoids that pitfall by requiring, due to its informality, direct action as the only means of dealing with problems. Negotiations with management are not handled by union big shots, but are rather handled by the rank and file, through delegation backed up every time by the threat of direct action.
comment by anti-work worker
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 02:09 AM CDT
I\'m honestly not trying to be rude or hostile, as I don\'t have the desire to engage in that type of the discussion. However, since when has Chomsky been read by rank-and-file workers? And how many rank-and-file workers are aware of zero-work theories or anarcho-syndicalism? It seems that you may be putting words into peoples mouths. But maybe I\'m wrong...
comment by Mata-Ricos
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 02:22 AM CDT
oye, ustedes no mas mi dan un dolor de cabeza!!!!! no mas andan de criti criti criti, ya callense pues.
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 02:41 AM CDT
Chuck0, many of your arguments about unions would be agreed upon by lots of people. John Sweeney would probably agree with those labor trends. The differences are not in the obvious observations we can make, the differences are in planning what to do now.

To me, anarchist union campaigns are frequently disappointing. But that doesnt mean that people should just quit -- we should take these criticisms and figure out a plan. It looks to me like this NEFAC person posted an article on the topic of anarchism & unions, gave their opinion on what anarchists could do, only to be hit with a bunch of messages which basically boil down to \"unions suck man\".

The average anarchist has no place telling a union worker that their union is terrible -- the union worker already knows it a thousand times better than the anarchist does.

If we, as anarchists, do not have a better plan (and might I say that the tired idea of random \"workplace sabotage,\" which is also encouraged in Dilbert comic strips, doesnt quite cut it ... then we should be strategically careful about criticizing people who are making an attempt.

Necrotic, you write that why collectivize what we are going to abandon? Most societies dating way back have some form of home builder, medical personnel, etc etc etc. This will not be \"abandoned\" in any revolution I am taking part in. If you don\'t think that fighting for people\'s right to own their own labor is important, then dont work on it. But I dont think it is right to look down on people because they are fighting in this age-old struggle. Police brutality and the other things you mention are also critically important. But every single person under capitalism either works for a living, suffers because they dont, or lives off of these people\'s work/lack thereof. It is at the core of anarchist revolution ... to me.
comment by hpwombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 05:22 AM CDT
I like your points. 1 and 2 are good ways to organize and radicalize at the same time. Backing up the theory and rhetoric with workplace and local experiences expose a reality to what you are talking about, so you don\'t seem like a crazy person and that the pattern you are drawing is real and exists in their reality. 3 is a point that needs to be recognized by all existing unions as well as (hopefully) new ones. I think 4 and 5 can exist easily with the workers if you don\'t actually attempt to organize a legal union. The workers themselves probably wouldn\'t even recognize it as a union necessarily...but this group would have to somehow connect with the outside. Perhaps an underground workers\' network that cooperates and resides within the local area (which is number 7, a good point made) is needed, and should have the secrecy of a tong web. 6 is a good point, and would of course have to be used more given that legal support doesn\'t exist. Though I am uncertain of how to impliment 8 unless this was the function of the web. Perhaps anarchists need to organize themselves outside the workplace first so that this web can form between the various workplaces, and then connect them through various functions. Any members that leaves could attempt to organize their workplace into the web, so that it grows. I don\'t know if such a thing could be very big, concidering the high need for secrecy, but multiple workplaces organized into multiple local webs that grant solidarity to as many local labor actions as possible could shake things up and would probably be more effective than a single union federation ran with a fat bureacracy.
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 06:27 AM CDT
From the outside it appears to me that anarchism is the US spends far too much of its effort directed into the anarchist movement and far too little directed in US society. Most publications are written for anarchists, very little seems to be written with the view that the \'man on the street\' might read it. So what tends to bring people to anarchism is the \'spectacle\' of the black bloc and/or a discovery of the ideas in your local radical bookshop/on the web rather then a sense that anarchism provides answers for the problems they and their workmates or neighboors face.

This brings problems for the movement, in particular meaning it is quite seperated from society and so forms its own sub culture where the degree of seperation from society becomes a test in itself. In that context any attempt to advocate that anarchists should finds way to address mainstream society are seen as selling out or reformist. Individuals end up doing a lot of good work but they do it as individuals who happen to be anarchists rather then as part of anarchist organisations.

To address \'mainstream society\' you have to address where the working class (by which I mean 80%+ of US society) is at, not where you want it to be. Theoretical schemes for revolutionary unions or rebellion against work mean nothing unless you can convine the mass of workers to try them out.

Right now some 13% of US workers are unionised. That is where they are at. Telling them that they should be in more radical unions like the IWW has not been successful and results in anarchists standing outside the working class organisations with a limited ability to address those inside. For anarchists to gain a real audience there they have to be inside (where this is possible, I\'m not advocation a maoist style \'send the students to the steelworks\' strategy). And as part of this they need publications that address the problems of ordinary people and not just the problems of \'the movement\'.
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 09:30 AM CDT
this is a really good discussion!

Flint wrote: \"If organized labor is such an important tool to the capitalist class, then why do capitalists (individually and collectively) seek to weaken organized labor wherever they can.\"

Of course there are many, many instances of labor unions actively suppressing dissent and organizing in collusion with workplace bosses. That\'s what provoked the Jeffboat wildcat strike, as you well know, Flint.

Chuck asked: \"There is plenty of evidence that Wayne is thinking about labor in traditional forms. Where is there any mention of office workers?\"

from the essay:
Computers would stop without the support of the rank-and-file keyboarders.

It\'s good to move beyond the traditional concept of the \"working class\" as a bunch of men in factories or on farms. Now if only we could move beyond traditional concepts of revolution as well.

Many anarchists like to dismiss the ideas of Adbusters, Crimethinc and other anti-consumerist tendencies as \"privileged\" or whatever, but it seems to me that conscious cessation of consumption is at least nearly as damaging to capitalism as conscious cessation of production.

I agree that the \"anti-work\" tendency is unfortunately named, but I\'m pretty sick of all the people who assume that its advocates will be helpless without the shadows of capitalism in which they survive. There are people out there (like me) who enjoy gardening and hunting and fishing, who are perfectly capable of feeding ourselves and who would be able to do so if there weren\'t (1) a government that forbids living off public lands and (2) capitalists and corporations that OWN all the land. If the land is free, then free people can live on it.
comment by Wob
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 10:02 AM CDT
The truly scary thing about this article is that Wayne calls for democratic centralism - althugh he does it in an underhanded way by calling for \"centralization\" and \"democratization\" simultaneously - and it has gone completely un-noticed in this whole discussion about \"workerism\" and such.

And, as for you NEFAC folks who seem to want to defend soem of the more unbelievable parts of this article - like, say, the Fosterite \"bore form within\" crap and the utterly discredited \"democratic centralism\" - Wake the fuck up! Two of you who have been posting I know for a fact are IWW members and you\'re on Infoshop espousing Fosterism?! For chistsake, have you no shame? Just because Price has \"NEFAC\" after his author line doesn\'t mean that you have to uncritically defend every word the man says!
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 10:35 AM CDT
Jeffboat

I think Jeffboat is a great example. The mob-controlled Teamsters local president tried to sign a backroom deal the bosses for a bad contract. In the past, the IWW had been involved in workplace stoppage around health&safety issues, as well as trying to reform the local democracy and kick out the corrupt local president. When the contract got rammed through, the shit hit the fan. The workers wildcatted, and the IWW was in involved in agitating about it, spreading the word, trying to get strike support. Ofcourse, Jeffboat had a history of militant struggle long before the IWW was involved, and is known for the occasional wildcat. But, the wobblies were in there put out a radical anti-capitalist perspective. So what happened? The wobblies talked to their fellow workers about decertifying with the Teamsters, and going IWW. The IWW wasn\'t really prepared for what would happen if it\'s membership doubled because a bunch of angry shipyard workers just joined up, and the amount of support coming in from the IWW was not enough. Anyway, the Teamsters International shit a brick, flew down the suits, sacked the old corrupt president, released strike funds to the strikers, and negotiated a return to work under the old contract (instead of the new worse contract) until such a time as a new contract could be democratically agreed to by the workers. And the workers went back to work.

I can\'t really see how anarchists could have acted in a better or more principled manner. It also shows the real limitations of the IWW right now, and the real unwillingness of workers to give up a corrupt anti-democratic union local and hierarchial bureacracy because of the very real resources that come along with it. At the same time, they are willing to challenge the union bureacracy and the bosses through wildcats and sabotage to act both against the bosses and the union bureacracy. Far from rejecting Wayne\'s program for labor, I think the Jeffboat examples is a great way of supporting his argument.

For all the \"hostile to organized labor\" rhetoric on here, when push comes to shove, I see very little practice being offered as an alternative.

Many people all over the world are able to cease consumption, and they often do so involuntarily. Keynesism is dead. Fordism is dead. Get over it.
You individual actions of non-consumption don\'t make a damn bit of difference to capitalist state. Now, the targetted collective non-consumption (as in a boycott), can be an effective if difficult tactic to organize to win demands. Ultimately, tying both boycott and strike together can be a winning combination. That\'s what we tried to do with the Up-To-Date Laundry campaign.

Points 1 and 2 that stop you from \"anti-working\" are the reasons people were forced into serfdom and then proletarianized (and indigenous communities all over are being forced into into being proles). I\'m all for occupation and land seziures, and such have often been key parts of insurrections. I think it has atleast as much potential as general strikes, occupation and expropriation; indeed... in both cases it\'s about the proletariat (lumpen or otherwise) siezing capital (whether it\'s the factory, the tennement building, or the land) and self-managing it for our own needs.
comment by Flint
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 10:40 AM CDT
I wasn\'t aware that there was a ideological unity requirement for being in the IWW.

That said, I think there is a difference between what Wayne suggests and democratic centralism or Fosterism.

What do you think all those dual carders in the IWW are doing in practice?
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 10:50 AM CDT
Having followed the material published on \'Fosterism\' in ASR and other IWW sources over the last couple of years it is obvious that some on the IWW feel recent (lack of) results are putting the traditional strategy under pressure. In fact this attempt to label anyone who dares to raise the idea that anarchists should work in the unions as \'Fosterism\' is deeply dishonest. Fosterism was not primarly a willingness to work in unions, it was a strategy of accepting positions in unions that were not recallable by the membership.

There needs to be some honest debate in this issue rather then this crass attempt to avoid discussion through invalid historical analogy. In European terms Foster stood from a \'Broad left\' aproach to union organistion rather then the \'rank and file\' network approach.
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 12:31 PM CDT
When I ask why collectivize those industries that we are just going to abandon, I mean that, when I look at post-industrial America, I see that most of the work that is done by the most oppressed (revolutionary) segment of society is largely useless paper shuffling. The most notable exception is perhaps migrant farm workers (and there are perhaps a few others, but I still see no reason why that work needs to be unionized). What I\'m getting at is that I believe that informal organizing is the most likely to resist the conservative tendencies of both the union leadership and the political parties when (if) we finally get the chance to have our revolution so that everything is up in the air for re-evaluation and re-distribution. The history of revolutions shows that it is generally one of those two factions within the revolution that stop the masses of workers from overturning society. Outside forces that seek to crush it are obvious: police, army, the State in general. But if we want a revolution to succeed, then we need to make sure that it is organized to succeed. And from my reading of history, that means it must be organized informally in such a way that is minimizes the influence of parties and unions.

I am not opposed to resistance cells within industries. In fact, I think it\'s vitally important. However, I do not think they should be organized within unions because the unions have every time opted to maintain their role within capitalism than to abolish it. Formal organizations seek to preserve and perpetuate themselves (someone above acknowleged this in pointing out the reasons for the new ALF-CIO membership drive). I\'m always amazed at how much resistance I get on this point from anarchists because I\'m basically applying the same critique we make about political parties to unions.

Some may argue that syndicalist unions are different and have revolutionary potential, but my reading of anarcho-syndicalist history tells me that they\'re don\'t tend to lead towards revolution. In Spain the CNT/FAI sought to cut deals with the government and then to join it. When it had the opportunity to push the revolution forward the leadership opted out, suckered by bourgeios calls for anti-fascist unity. The same thing happened in Mexico with La Case, the anarcho-syndicalist union there, during the revolution. These are not exceptions to union history, they are union history (which makes perfect sense once you begin to see unions as tools for maintaining capitalism rather than tools to dismantle it). Which is why I advocate informal organization that can accomplish the goals of unionism that are worth keeping (like democratic control, direct action, expropriation) without all the baggage and inertia of affiliating with the union. Once the State and capitalism are brought down, the business of reorganizing society can begin in earnest without all the bullshit unions, parties and capitalists getting in the way.

So what I mean by not bothering with industries we are just going to abandon is that I do not trust the unions to take the jump into revolution. But even if they did, I do not trust them to dismantle their own power base afterwards. I do not trust them to start sending workers home for good because they are a power unto themselves and to do so would undermine their authority and power. Unions routinely come in and undermine wildcat strikes (look at Flints own example at Jeffboat). Informal organization can be unified behind common goals and ideas and yet remain flexible and independent enough to just abandon what work is meaningless without waiting for an order from the leadership. But of course, some work will be necessary, from my perspective, no matter what. But informal organizing allows the flexibility it takes to reorganize that easily and democratically so that as little work as necessary is done by each person. Plus, it\'s entirely possible that once building houses, for instance, stops being a job, that people may wish to do that for the pure enjoyment that they get in terms of expressing their artisanal and artistic tendencies, from the exercise and time outdoors, and any number of other reasons. However, I doubt they will want to do it all day, five days a week. But, then, are we expecting a housing boom after the revolution? The way I see it there\'s already plenty. If I could just stop paying rent I\'d be happy. I don\'t need a new house.

But, I have to say I agree most with the person who said that we need an honest assessment of where things stand now (and we need to begin dialoging with the people outside the anarchist scene - which is why copwatch has been so great in my opinion). And when I look around I see widespread disillusionment with unionism and other forms of electoral politics. And yet direct actions and sabotage happen all the time, despite most the workforce being outside the control of unions (we\'ve heard examples on this list). This tells me that people are already organizing informally. If that\'s the case, shouldn\'t we recognize that fact and build off that rather than convincing people that to take control of their lives that they need to first give some up by joining a union and then fighting to democratize it? In France \'68, people seem to forget that only 2 million of the 10 million workers on strike were union. My understanding of events in Argentina is that the unions and the parties are both trying to sabotage (along with the governmetn) the neighborhood assemblies because they are threats to their power. This is what I am talking about.

As far as alternatives, I\'ll try to explain better. We need to build solidarity, certainly. But we must do it outside unions. There is a publication here in Phoenix called Tempe Class War that is trying to do that by getting the word out about what would otherwise be individual acts of resistance so we can start creating a climate of solidarity of purpose and to dispell that sense that people are resisting alone. From bank robberies to sabotage to workplace theft it all gets covered in there. Second, we should be encouraging those people who are already organizing informally to conceptualize it as a revolutionary act and the develop revolutionary goals. Those who are not yet organizing that way should be encouraged to do so. Informal hook-up networks should be set up. Sick-ins, direct action, sabotage should all be encouraged and linked to larger goals.

The good thing about that is that since its all organized informally, it requires less work and encourages direct action. There is no union boss to check with or to come in and tell you your actions are inappropriate - only your co-workers. There is no bloated union bureaucracy to support and certainly no dues (convincing 5 to 7 dollar an hour workers that they should be spending MORE out of their checks for the privilege of having TWO bosses instead of one is a really hard sell).

But, I still believe the real energy for the revolution will come from organizing outside of work. Probably from confronting police brutality and prison work. Anarchists need to stop spending so much time looking to Europe for examples of how our revolution will go. Our revolution will not look like Spain \'36. It will not look like the Paris Commune or the Russian Revolution. It will reflect our own particular history, circumstances and culture which is quite different that anywhere else. Most anarchists seem to be in denial about what those things are.
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 12:40 PM CDT
Another example of direct action that I saw recently from one of the most oppressed sectors of the population that does what some would call meaningful work happened recently with the non-affiliated largely immigrant roofers who are fighting their boss over shit wages and workplace conditions (and this is in Arizona, where it gets really damn hot on those roofs). Recently they staged a wildcat walkout to get their demands heard. Now, why should I, as an anarchist who recognizes that these workers have already developed a militant perspective, convince them that they should now mediate that sentiment by affiliating with a union that will in all likelihood issue a strike ban as soon as the union cards are signed (it makes contract negotiations with the boss difficult, they say - more likely it makes the union officials feel out of control and undermines the sense they have that they are equals with the bosses [i.e., above the workers]). Shouldn\'t I be telling them (and workers like them, since these roofers are already being courted by the Roofers Union) that they already have all the benefits of a union that are worth getting and that they should continue to use direct action to extract and keep concessions from the boss? This is the case I need to hear made from those interested in building a revolutionary union movement and I\'m not hearing it. I\'m not hearing what advantages they will get that they couldn\'t get by keeping the spirit of militant direct action with them. But I do see a lot of disadvantages.
comment by dadanarchist
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 01:03 PM CDT
Now don\'t take me for some sort of Maoist, but I think that it is important to point out that the nations where there was some sort of revolution (not necessarily anarchist), for example, Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua and even Spain, were largely agricultural nations. Am I saying that only the peasantry are revolutionary subjects a la Mao? No, I\'m just saying its important to note this tendency. Revolutions in industrial nations are generally stymied in two ways, often in combination: 1. the revolutionary organizations are smashed by the power of the state and 2. the moderate left moves into occupy that vacuum and \"carry on\" the revolution but moderately, in government. This happened in Germany, France, Mexico, South Korea etc etc. I think it is important to note that no revolution of any flavor has ever succeded or even come close to succeding in industrialized countries.

I saw a documentary on Jewish anarchists a few weeks ago, called \"The Free Voice of Labor.\" The filmaker interviewed an older Jewish anarchist, lifetime IWW member, class stuggle anarchist etc. He said that the very process of work innures the worker to the work process, brings him into the capitalist economy, enmeshes him into the means of production, makes him part of the system, and that is why the worker rarely revolts. There becomes no reality outside the factory - only improvements to the situation. This gentleman was arguing for a recasting of anarchist theory and organization to account for this problem. Take that for what you will.
comment by Wob
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 04:59 PM CDT
That\'s exactly what you should tell them and goes back to what ChuckO said earlier about where the IWW went wrong in trying to get NLRB recognition and such.
comment by Union Organizer
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 10:18 PM CDT
The comments against the \"reformist\" AFL-CIO and organizing unions in general are amazing. It seems like people do not have an understanding of how unions in this country work and do not have many converstaions with workers. It is not the labor boss who is the biggest obstacle to workers. Many times it is not even the capitalist state. The primary obstacle is the workers themselves. Anybody who has spent anytime organinzing an unorganized person/worker in this country, knows that mobilizing that worker and any significant number of co-workers in action is a far greater obstacle then the \"union bueracracy\".

What is needed is a lot of sweat, energy and new ideas to engage the American working class into action. Collective Action.

The immature and ignorant, disrespectful comments made about unions failures ignores a reality of what unions have done for millions of Americans. As far as those roofers in Arizona, or any exploited workers, Who is going to provide the network to take on the capitalist class, if not a union. Provide an alternative or join the struggle. Unions are not the enemy-Get real!
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 10:20 PM CDT
But that\'s the point, isn\'t it? If they\'re already getting results without a union, then there\'s absolutely no reason in the world for them to join one. That is, I\'m still not hearing what advantages they will get by joining one except another boss to tell them \"now is not the time\".
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 11:38 PM CDT
I also must say, I am amazed at some of the naivete expressed here.

The fantasy that \"after the revolution,\" there will be no houses to build or repair, no need to collectively work together. How in the hell do you think you get the stuff you have ... like, for instance, electricity, water, medical care, a toilet to shit in, a functioning waste management system, roads, food ... ?? Do you think these things magically happen? No -- society and people working together provide that. This naive and, dare I say, spoiled outlook on life is what fundamentally bothers me about an \"anti-work\" perspective. People are so accustomed to having shit workers provide these things for them that they don\'t even see the labor issues present there. Necrotic, whether you see it or not, there are a hell of a lot of things that need to be done, and finding a collective, equitable way to provide them together is the crux of anarchism.

I agree with \"Union Organizer\" who says that the points here are \"immature, ignorant and disrespectful.\" Everyone knows that unions in the US are fucked ... everyone. But the sense I get from these messages is that no one here really knows that they are fucked from being involved in labor campaigns, they just assume they are fucked from an elitist anarchist perspective that presumes to pass judgement on all other forms of activism which are -- like it or not -- 1000 times more effective than contemporary anarchist practices at achieving concrete goals. The reason SEIU has thousands of members and the \"anarchist labor campaign\" doesnt? SEIU works better. It is more relevant to working class struggles. Period.

Necrotic, your assertion that you would feel bad telling roofing workers to organize in a union. Where will you be when they are sacked and kicked out because the community doesnt support their wildcat strike? And maybe next time, you will think, \"gee, if we had a little bit of organization maybe we could *get* that community support for a more effective wildcat direct action\" but then you would be a \"bureaucratic union hell-bent on acquiring power\" ...

I think the Tempe Class War magazine is a good idea, but I dont think trashing union organizing without at least some semblance of experience or strategy is a good idea at all.




comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 11:49 PM CDT
Ummm, anarchocommunist, you misunderstand and misrepresent the anti-work argument. Being against work means being against wage slavery, not against the basic work needed to keep people alive. When we say that we are against work, we\'re talking about being against a capitalist system that exploits people and makes them work for a pittance in office jobs. This is different than work that is necessary to feed people, keep them warm and dry, and keep them entertained. Perhaps there needs to be a better word to describe this kind of work, but nobody who is anti-work is against doing stuff in a community that meets basic human needs.

The reason why there is an anti-work tendency within anarchism and libertarian socialism is because there are plenty of anarchists and leftists who seek to replace one form of wage slavery with another. A worker-controlled factory is still a fucking factory, which is something that free people would want to stay away from. A worker-controlled office building is little different than one controlled by the capitalists. What difference does worker control make if you still have to spend 20-30 hours in an office?

There is nothing \"immature\" or \"elitist\" about anti-work arguments. These are just knee-jerk evasions written by people who refuse to listen to anti-work arguments, or simply don\'t understand them, or are wedded to a dogmatic ideology about work and labor. Frankly, this seems pretty clear to me.

comment by Durruti's Love Child
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 14 2002 @ 11:57 PM CDT
Unions suck man.
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 15 2002 @ 01:54 AM CDT
Geesh, this is why I hate talking with left anarchists almost as much as I hate talking to socialists. In one ear and out the other everytime.

Anarcho-commie and others, please refer back to my previous posts. I mentioned that I have worked in union shops and done work supporting union actions, from strikes to lame-o labor day marches to boycotts. The whole gamut. Please get your facts straight. I know its much easier to pretend that because I disagree with you that I don\'t have practical experience that informs my opinions, but that is just not the case. I\'ve (as do many who disagree with you) worked in union shops, non-union shops, shit jobs and pretty good paying jobs. I\'ve been laid off twice in two years, once in a union shop and once in a non-union one. So, don\'t pretend that you can shoo away my arguments that easily. I don\'t know how simply disagreeing with you can be naive. Naive to me is clinging to a failed methodology.

I\'d also like to point out yet again how dismissive the left anarchists are of people who dare suggest that organizing around the workplace is not where its at. This level of dogmatism and intolerance is usually reserved for, well, the left (maybe that explains it)... I keep hearing people say reactionary things like \"if you have no alternatives get out of the way\", etc, even though people have proposed alternatives. I suggested that anti-patriarchy and anti-white supremacy work within the unions would be worthwhile (that is, it would be supporting organizing outside the workplace rather than the other way around, where we are all just supposed to drop everything we\'re doing and support the wise machinations of the learned union organizers who have yet to deliver on their long overdue promise of revolution - despite all their learned-ness, of course). I also suggested that, as opposed to centering our struggle around the workplace (which has less and less meaning for people everyday), we should perhaps consider organizing around other ideas, like police brutality and prisons.

But, unfortunately, the left-anarchists don\'t want to hear alternatives that dare to critique their sacred cow of labor organizing. Right now, for instance, by focusing on labor organizing, these anarchists are largely expecting that people will self-organize their own community self-defense teams, etc, after they collectize the workplaces (the more important work in the eyes of these particular left anarchists). Well, what if instead of centering our efforts building an anarchist critique at work and hoping it will trickle down to other areas of society (especially since so many people don\'t want to work and especially since so many oppressed communities have high unemployment rates), what if we opted to organize around police brutality and prisons and showed people that they can take that example (that militancy), which is part of a larger critique of society that includes workers\' control, and take it to work? Why must we start at the workplace, especially given its failed history as a locus of revolution?

After all, copwatches could pop up everywhere, in affinity group style. These copwatches could very easily make the switch to militia units when necessary and drive the cops out of the communities if properly prepared. Then, with the cops gone, who will protect the property of the capitalists? Instead, union organizers\' solution is to occupy the workplace. Then the cops come in and bust it up. These differences are not failures to offer alternatives, they are differences in strategy and need to be recognized as such. The dismissive and arrogant attitude of the left anarchists is really growing tiring. They keep asking us to offer solutions when they\'ve been applying the same tired old model for a hundred or more years without success. As if the burden is on us anyhow. Meanwhile, most workers are moving forward, with or without us (and generally, and wisely, without unions).

The real reason all the left anarchists are so pissed off is because, while they claim to be asking for alternatives, what they really want is for us to mimic their strategy and tell them a slightly different way to organize with our focus around the workplace (which they will then claim to be the same thing as their strategy). Well, even though some have been suggested (informality is a genuine alternative to conservative unionism and), what they\'re really unhappy about is someone suggesting that organizing workplaces should not be a primary focus of our energy.

And, if that\'s what they want, then they\'re not going to get it. If union organizing were the spark that were going to set off this fire, it would have happened long ago. As anarchists, we need to be critically evaluating how things have changed since the Great Uprising of 1877. Or how its changed since 1917, or the Seattle general strike, or the strike wave of the mid to late 1940\'s. Things are not the same.

However, no one is saying that there aren\'t positive things to be learned and applied from those experiences. But what some people seem to be saying (and I definitely am) is that to say that we must either take or leave unionism and its lessons, all or nothing, is a big lie perpetuated by uncreative and dogmatic anarchists trapped in the past. We can take the general strike without also having to organize workplaces (in fact, we can decide never to go back to work at all if we want - which ought to piss off the union boss). We can take the wildcat strike (which, as was already pointed out, precedes unionism in fact, as do many of these tactics that we now associate with unionism) without signing union cards.

If you work, sure, you should try to radicalize your co-workers (as you should do with your neighbors and your friends and people on the street). But should you try to organize a union? No, I don\'t think so. Should we support strikes, especially wildcats? Yes, of course. Should we organize unions? No, I don\'t think so. So many of the old left anarchists are so black and white that it\'s really annoying. I defy their all or nothing worldview. I\'m interested in putting practice and theory together in ways that work, not in dwelling on our depressing, defeated past. And I sure don\'t want to repeat it. I want to win. And for the last time, please don\'t say that people who criticize unions are naive or privileged or armchair quarterbacks. We just have come to different conclusions than you and your elitist attitude screams of the vanguardism that so many of us see in unionism in general. Why are you all so defensive, anyhow?
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 15 2002 @ 03:39 AM CDT
Chuck0, read this statement from above: \"I mean that, when I look at post-industrial America, I see that most of the work that is done by the most oppressed (revolutionary) segment of society is largely useless paper shuffling. The most notable exception is perhaps migrant farm workers\" ... then tell me that the anti-work position doesnt have some naive rationalizations to postpone ever thinking about how to collectively work together.

Granted, there are a lot of useless industries. But to go so far as to say that \"paper pushing\" would be solved by the revolution is pretty utopian. I work in a lot of anarchist collectives, and I certainly do my share of necessary paper pushing.

Necrotic -- your alternatives are ... 1) focus on police brutality (again dismissing the valid and necessary component of workplace organizing) and 2) apply CWS to labor organizing (very original).

I will not go on to try and find strategic value in this discussion. I disagree that anarchists should give up on some form of organizing in the workplace. I disagree that labor is unimportant to people\'s lives. And I disagree that focusing all energy on police brutality is the answer to everything.





comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 15 2002 @ 04:18 AM CDT
Anarcho-Commie:

Ever done food service? What does your plan to collectivize McDonald\'s look like (and what do third world peasants think of it)? Can I still get a Big Mac after the revolution (we\'re going to collectivize it, right)? How many slurpy meetings will I have to attend each week when you collectivize my 7-11? Will my insurance job be preserved (after all, that\'s why I\'m collectivizing it, right)? What if I want more say in my workplace, but only so I can vote to send everyone home for good. Where are the answers to these questions from the anarcho-left?

By the way, I again encourage you to re-read what I have written. I did not say that there was only one thing to be done. What I said was that things need to be re-prioritized and that unions were not a path to revolution. It\'s ironic that you so steadfastly defend workplace organizing as paramout and yet attack me as arrogant or naive for suggesting something else might be. I used police brutality organizing as one example (among three - actually four - that I offered) of how to re-prioritize. If you don\'t like it, critique it. Your dismissals strike me as defensive and largely bankrupt.

You intimate that I am opposed to people working together because the only area in which you see collective action as revolutionary is in the workplace. I disagree. I spoke at length about collective action. I just don\'t disagree where the emphasis should be.

Again, more reaction from the left. You guys continually disappoint me with your inability to evaluate ideas and actions outside of your extremely narrow and self-congratulatory worldview.

The leftist strategies look to me like one collosal and never-ending pat on the back, despite the preponderance of evidence to the contrary. As long as we all pretend that we\'re relevant, it\'s so, right?
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 15 2002 @ 05:11 AM CDT
anarchocommunist: \"Necrotic -- your alternatives are ... 1) focus on police brutality (again dismissing the valid and necessary component of workplace organizing) and 2) apply CWS to labor organizing (very original).

I will not go on to try and find strategic value in this discussion. I disagree that anarchists should give up on some form of organizing in the workplace. I disagree that labor is unimportant to people\'s lives. And I disagree that focusing all energy on police brutality is the answer to everything.\"


Necrotic State: \"You intimate that I am opposed to people working together because the only area in which you see collective action as revolutionary is in the workplace. I disagree. I spoke at length about collective action. I just don\'t disagree where the emphasis should be\"

Yes, emphasis. The problem I see is that dismissing unions doesn\'t handle the problem of workplace oppressions. Workplace direct actions are one way, but without solidarity, such workplaces can be cleaned out in 21st century america, happens all the time. I propose an underground web, but I\'m not certain of how realistic that is in actually fighting capitalism and/or able to make real wins in the workplace that the workers appreciate, both are criteria in developing a radical solution. 21st century capitalism can resort to temporary services, or pulling workers from different locations to handle slack from mass firings.

It is necessary that a cohesive strategy be developed that is both anti-work and is a way to solve workplace oppressions. Otherwise, even if you do propose an anti-work ethic, you will be dismissed by the more relevant unions in the workplace.

It has been suggested that fighting other workplace oppressions, such as sexism or racism should not wait til after the revolution...I tend to agree. An anarchist culture has got to be a real popular culture if anarchy is to be achieved, so identity oppressions must be erased by either ethic. These oppressions ensure a greater atomization, as well as perpetuates characteristics that fascists and nazis take advantage of in their own organizing, and it as well fragments people into smaller minorities that may not which to work with other bodies. It would be great if fighting identity oppression extended into both the service and the more industrial industries because here is perhaps where the largest populations are exposed to such oppressions.

comment by Wikk
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 15 2002 @ 08:32 AM CDT
Your missing the piont, unions in theory at least are more anarchist than marxists which gravatate more to formming political parties. While marxists seek apoliical programme anarchists seek to organize the rank and file against ownwers or unelected administrators. In other words against athuority. bosses are athuority managers are athority, school administrators are authority. This is to both inprove the lives of the subjegated in the short term but in the long term, when the time is right to end subjegation and create a coopertive society.
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 15 2002 @ 08:37 AM CDT
in regards to sparking revolution via union organizing:

\"the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results each time.\" -- attributed to Einstein.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 15 2002 @ 09:49 AM CDT
You say that anti-work advocates are not thinking about how we can work collectively together? That\'s bogus, because we recognize that there are many anarchist and egalitarian ways to work together, including anarcho-communism. After our theoretical revolution, there would be many ways to organize our lives, but we are arguing that some anarchists aren\'t being oppositional enough when it comes to work and wage slavery. I have no problem with organizing a food co-op along anarcho-communist lines after the revolution, but I have problems with those anarchists who think we can have a collectived semiconductor plant after a revolution. There are many jobs and industries that would have no place in an anarchist society after the revolution, simply because they are alienating jobs that nobody would want to continue. If the revolution has freed people to have control over their lives, which syndicalist gang is going to force people to work in the car factory? Perhaps people will continue to tinker with cars to keep them running, but who would want to keep an industrial society going? You do know that many people around the world live on the land without all the trappings of American consumer society, right?

As for paper pushing, I was not arguing against paperwork that is needed to keep a project organized. I was talking about alienated paper-pushing that is a job in and of itself. I don\'t understand why this is confusing. There is no place for offices in the world I\'m trying to create.
comment by Ratman
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 15 2002 @ 09:20 PM CDT
Hmm. I keep hearing folks like Chuck and Neurotic State doing exactly what they accuse \"left anarchists\", \"workerists\", \"organizationalists\", etc of doing. You guys whine when somene criticizes your pro-primitivist, anti-work position, yet you use every chance to blatently lie about those you oppose. So we\'re always the liars, but you guys uphold holy truth.

It should be obvious that the term \"union\" can mean beuracratic, pro-capitalist unions like the AFL-CIO, or it can mean revolutionary/libertarian socialist organizations like the IWW. Chuck suggests there is a difference and then steps back and demolishes this by basicly saying that everything the IWW really stands for, or has stood for, must be abandoned. We\'re told real anarchism is anti-organizational (i disagree, I feel real anarchism is totaly pro-organizational, and always had been... you know, it\'s possible to be an individualist, egoist, even hate work, but still believe in forming formal anarchist organizations of workers that fight capitalism at the point of production).

For Chuck, it seems he has no problem with the idea of the IWW in some abstract sense, and he doesnt attack 3rd world poor workers who form unions, but he really hates the idea of anarchist unions, and wants us all to abandon them. It seems that he\'d like the IWW, or any anarchist organization to simply be symbolic, and in fact be
something totaly opposed to what such organizations have been for the last 150 years.
I hear this same sentiment from a number of people who joint he IWW because they realize the IWW has a lot of respect and good principles, yet they seem to feel it\'s neccesary to make the IWW or anything like it into it\'s opposite.. something totaly differerent. Why not simply create a whole new organization? (but of course doing such would suggest a pro-organizational stance).

For me, if people like Chuck ever succeded in turning anarchist unions, federations, communes, etc into simple TAZs, primitivist clubs, or isolated cells intended for spontenious activities, I myself would simply find them useless and leave, and form a new organization. I\'m sure if such a new organization succeeded using the traditional anarchist methods (grass roots democracy, direct action, general strike, solidarity), Chuck would try to join such a group and do the same thing he did with the IWW. It\'s sad. I dont get why he feels the need to do this.

For someone to say that organizing industrialy is totaly wrong and should be abandoned or is anti-anarchist seems increadible to me. How can one waste time arguing with someone who says such things over and over, never caring what arguments or explanations are used to explain it? He doesnt seem to care what other anarchists feel or think or why we think the way we do.

And also I\'m seeing the same old crap used by Bob Black, etc by folks like Neurotic State here.. the thinly vieled suggestion that all the anarchists he disagrees with are \"leftists\".. of the authoritarian type, that they support capitalism, authority, fascism, etc.. yet he complains that he\'s being characterized unfairly if the same arguments are thrown in his direction. What gives?
So we\'re all just stalinists, and because we like to use terms like \"union\", \"organization\", \"undustrial\", etc we have sinister movies, we\'re all the same as the traditional authoritarian or reformist left, and nothing we do or say will change his mind. He just doesnt give a shit.

So we are \"dogmatic\" but of course Neurotic State is never a dogmatist. Huh.

I also see the old tricks: claiming that the ideas the anti work/anti organizational folks dislike are \"old\" they are being \"abandoned\", they are \"out of date\".. \"more and more anarchists are rejecting organization\", etc. Where is the proof? I have seen the opposite, but I\'m sure Neurotic State and Chuck dont care what I say, or wouldnt pay attention to any proof. They just talk past people like me. These cliche claims are the same things the advertizing/marketing industry uses for psychological effect: to present something as better by suggesting that it is \"new\", that it is \"popular\"... so the rest of us who want to be \"with it\" must do whatever folks like Neurotic State or Chuck, or the other folks supporting them here say, or we\'ll be \"old\", we\'ll be \"outdated\".
I could just as easily say that stuff like primitivism/anti-organization/dumpster diving/anti-work are \"old\" ideas that are being \"abandoned\" and people are \"seeing the light\" and \"choosing another path\". I\'m not convinced such statements have any value other than emotional/psychological. I might still use them against people like Neurotic State if he keeps using them against people like me, but basicly as a tactic to show him how it feels, and how it isnt really a convincing argument to people who know better.

It is hard to organize a (anarchist) union... but that doesnt mean the idea needs to be abandoned. But the difficulty, boredom, etc. seems to be just a side-note.. the real point here is that I think these people just dont like the idea of working with other people in a formal, responsible way at all.... even if it is in a libertarian way. When they reject \"democracy\" it isnt simply the sham \"Democracy\" based on government representatives and lots of money we have in the USA, but it is the very basic idea of a democratic process. Hey, if I\'m wrong, let me know. To me, democracy simply means that the people affected by a decision will have a real say in how that decision is implimented. The problem here is that primitivists/anti-work/anti-organization folks dont like the idea of a process where what they want may not happen because people simply dont agree with it. It is much esier to demolish your opponent by discrediting them/demonizing them, and feel that everyone will just naturaly accept your ideas by \"concensus majority\", because what you believe in is so just, so right, so correct that anyone who would disagree is obviously wrong, not an anarchist, a closit capitalist, authoritarian, fascist, etc. A real democratic process doesnt make life so simple. It\'s about compromise and determining the truth, through debate and hard work. (And I dont think \"democratic centralism\" ever meeant anything other than \"Centralized, top-down party rule\"... it\'s an oxymoron and shouldnt be confused with bottom-up democracy, no more than anarcho-syndicalism should be confused with AFL-CIO style business unionism).

I myself dont pretend that a number of people in the anarchist movement will ever feel comfortable in formal organizations, and I have no problem with them staying independant of them. It\'s important that the anarchist movement have an organizational aspect and a non-organizational aspect, so that at different times one strategy can work where the other does not. But to insist, which these sweeping statements like \"anarchism is anti-organizational\" or \"anarchism is anti industry/factory/civilization\" suggest that we all have no choice but to accept this perspective, or we are not valid anarchists, seems puzzling to me... Zerzan himself has said that primistivism is the only valid form of anarchism, yet I dont hear Chuck complaining about that.

Let me also point out that I do not think it makes sense to take so much offense at Wayne statement that unions are so crucial to revolution, and feel that this is an unfair, absolutist statement or implies that people like Neurotic State or the editors/writers of Anarchy magazine must join and support anarchist unions. I think it is true that some massive form of union activity is cruicial to revolution, but that in now way means that other forms of activity are invalid. What also amazes me is this assumption that groups like the IWW or NEFAC are one-note songs that only focus on labor/class struggle and dont do just as much artsy, fun, spontenious things that any other anarchists do. I\'m seeing a dichotomy set up here that suggests that \"Workerists\" are stodgey and boring but anti-work anarchists are where all the new, original and cool ideas come from. Well, it\'s not true, and you can keep telling yourself it is that way, but I can tell you it\'s not.

As for Chuck being upset about the new issue of ASR and wanting to rip the criticisms of post-leftist anarchism/primitivism to shreds, I dunno Chuck, every time someone complains about an article that attacks anarcho-syndicalism from a primitivist, or when someone complains about someone making an unfair statement attacking the IWW, Chuck goes into defensive mode and says its no big deal, be quiet and dont complain, the argument is valid, the argument is only one person\'s opinion, etc... ok, so how about extending some of that sentiment to the criticism of primitivism/post leftism? Let\'s be fair here, after all. Unless you want to tell me outright that you totaly oppose anarchist unions, formal organizations, federations, grass-roots democracy, etc and always will, and will base everything you say in some polemical way on that. Perhaps that is how you feel and what you want, but at least try not to be surprised when you see anarchists opposing what you stand for with just as much conviction.

Lastly, if trying to spark revolution with union organizing is \"insanity\" because it\'s \"doing the same thing over and over\", how is doing what the anti-organizational anarchists do over and over any better? I dont see Zerzan\'s strategies getting us closer to revolution, though I guess Zerzan and his supporters insist that they will if they can just convince people like me to abandon the history of anarchism, abandon most of it\'s ideas, reject everything and do whatever they say and feel is right. I came to the point where I am because of how my life worked out, and based on my observations and experiances. I\'ve read tons of stuff by anti-organizationalists and I\'m just not convinced they know what is best for me or for anarchism in general. So? Now what do we do?

Why cant you just let anarcho-syndicalists be what they are, let NEFAC do what it will, and do what you want to do? I suppose thats impossible because you want to occupy all the same ideological and physical spaces we inhabit, and push us out... you want to rewrite history to highlite the spontenious, anti-organizational, anti-work, anti-organizational aspects, and ignore anything that doesnt fit that model. I cant say I\'m happy with that prospect. I cant speak for other anarchists as a whole but, hell, I dont think we all want that.

I understand that people on this forum who are pissed at the followups to pro-primitivist/post leftist articles feel the need to attack anything the IWW or NEFAC might say (especialy Chuck, who wastes no time denouncing such posts right away, or picks them apart), perhaps to \"get back\" at those of us who do the same thing to you. I just want to remind you that those of us on the other side of this little war are real people, with real anarchist feelings and ideas, and people like Neurotic State who try to dehumanize us with labels like \"workerist\" (and imply that since we are not saying we are \"anti-work\" that we are somehow \"pro-work\" or that we weant to force them to work) so we are easy to attack and think little of should realize that things arnt so easy and simple as simply telling people that your worldview is correct and everyone else has to accept it and that\'s that. (If this was a battle between capitalists and anti-capitalists, or anarchists and fascists, I am sure it would be different.. but I like to think that this is not the same.)
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 01:18 PM CDT
Oh, come on.

\"Are people who are liberated from capitalism and have lots of free time on their hands, going to volunteer to work in a plastic factory?
I think not, which is why you really haven\'t thought out your politics vis a vis capitalism.\"

I dont understand capitalism? Your vision of anarchist society sounds more like a commercial for a retirement home ... \"sit around in luxury, never lifting a finger, blah blah\" ... in the wonderful anarchist world where you go to the doctor and they saw off your leg instead of taking out your tonsils because ... oops, there\'s no paperwork in the anarchist society, \"you know man, paperwork is oppressive\" ...

And dont worry, we wont have need for resource extraction anymore, no need for fuel or energy, we\'ll all float on to our destinations on magic anarchist clouds which pick us up and take us to where we\'re going. Did I mention these clouds have smiley faces?

\"You know, the human species has gotten along fine without computers, cars, and George Lucas flicks for thousands of years. And the technology and comforts that many of you think we can maintain in an anarchist society are based on a capitalist system that steals resources from the Global South.\"

Keep in mind that this is your big rationale for why we shouldnt attempt worker collectivization ... there is no underlying reason here, you are just saying that \"labor is bad\" and therefore \"to be an anarchist you have to wipe out all technological production\". Let me tell you, I know quite a few geeks from the Global South who will be surprised to hear that do-gooder anarchists from the industrialized countries want to smash their computers and tell them they cant use computers anymore.

And let me finish by saying this ... dont tell any normal people about your wingnut plans of never working, living like \"the Global South does\" (a condescending remark if you understood how much technology actually exists throughout these parts of the world) and smashing all technology, medicine, etc. If you keep telling normal (i.e. non-political) people this, no one will ever take us seriously. And why should they? It is a bunch of loony babbling about nothing.

I do not glamorize \"alienated labor\" ... but I am also not so wrapped up in my own theories to think that people are going to throw away these thigns you are talking about ... people in the North or South. It isnt that hard ... people want a fair social system. Everything else can be decided by the new democratic anarchist societies, and not a bunch of petty tyrant philosophers on an internet chat board.
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 10:42 AM CDT
anarchocommunist, you might be able to find several dozen computer geeks who would work in a liberated, worker-controlled semiconductor plant. but I seriously doubt that you would be able to get the materials and power that you would need to make semiconductors. and what would you do with all of the toxic waste produced during the construction process?

I strongly recommend that you read the book Stuff: The Secret Lives of Everyday Things to learn exactly what it is that goes into your car or computer. Chuck is right -- you need a global system of resource extraction on a massive scale. Why mine for silicon if you\'re not going to be mass-producing computers on a worldwide scale? The effort just isn\'t worth it otherwise. And it\'s precisely that large-scale effort that has such tremendous impact on the ecosystem.

Looking ahead to the lauded time \"after the revolution,\" I could easily see people maintaining their existing machines (cars, computers, factories, etc.) to the best of their abilities. But there is no ecologically sound way to continue manufacturing computers, cars, and other complex technologies on a large enough scale to make them available to all.

Arrrgh ... why do so many interesting debates always end up in some ridiculous argument about \"primitivism\"??
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 15 2002 @ 11:38 PM CDT
Ratman writes:
\"Hmm. I keep hearing folks like Chuck and Neurotic State doing exactly what they accuse \"left anarchists\", \"workerists\", \"organizationalists\", etc of doing. You guys whine when somene criticizes your pro-primitivist, anti-work position, yet you use every chance to blatently lie about those you oppose. So we\'re always the liars, but you guys uphold holy truth.\"

Sorry, Ratman, but I have to call you on you fucking deceptive attack on what I\'ve written here and your misrepresentation of my political beliefs. I\'m finding that this is par for the course in the American anarchist movement that is rapidly going into the shitter. I\'ve made arguments above on a variety of things, never saying that anything I argued that what I say is some \"holy truth.\" I\'m simply arguing my point of view. I would be the LAST person to say that I know the truth on any of these topics, since we don\'t know alot about which alternatives work and because there may be more than one way to do something effectively.

I am an anti-work anarchist, but I am not a damn primitivist. I have stated this in numerous places and I\'m getting tired of being called a primitivist. This is that same goddamn, motherfucking guilt by association game that some anarchists like to play. Well, I\'m a fucking IWW member too. Does that make me a syndicalist primitivist? Why can\'t some of you fucking idiots LISTEN or READ what somebody says, instead of slapping labels on them?

\"It should be obvious that the term \"union\" can mean beuracratic, pro-capitalist unions like the AFL-CIO, or it can mean revolutionary/libertarian socialist organizations like the IWW. Chuck suggests there is a difference and then steps back and demolishes this by basicly saying that everything the IWW really stands for, or has stood for, must be abandoned. We\'re told real anarchism is anti-organizational (i disagree, I feel real anarchism is totaly pro-organizational, and always had been... you know, it\'s possible to be an individualist, egoist, even hate work, but still believe in forming formal anarchist organizations of workers that fight capitalism at the point of production).\"

Yes, there is a difference and we were having a good discussion here until you posted this garbage. My original post criticized organized labor (business unions) and took Wayne to task for proposing a warmed-over Trotskyist approach to working with big labor. I pointed out that this wasn\'t even close to radical unionism, like the IWW. I never suggested that \"everything the IWW really stands for\" should be abandoned. That is a projection on your part. I\'d say that the IWW has done lots of good work and the current IWW does some great stuff. However, the current IWW has many problems that prevent it from becoming something bigger and more relevant to workers.

I also never argued that \"real anarchism\" is anti-organizational. That\'s a dogmatic thing that I would never argue. I\'ll argue for an anti-organizational sensibility and critique, but totally dismissing anarchists who form organizations is totally silly.

\"For Chuck, it seems he has no problem with the idea of the IWW in some abstract sense, and he doesnt attack 3rd world poor workers who form unions, but he really hates the idea of anarchist unions, and wants us all to abandon them.\"

I think that given their current state, it might make sense to abandon union-organizing and try something else. Those who are pro-union are so dogmatic sometimes that trying to do something different within the union approach seem pretty hopeless. I mean, why should anyone bother arguing that unions do something differently if they are always told by labor zealots that things have to be done like they always were done.

\"It seems that he\'d like the IWW, or any anarchist organization to simply be symbolic, and in fact be something totaly opposed to what such organizations have been for the last 150 years.\"

I\'m arguing precisely the opposite! If we are going to have anarchist organizations, they should be effective, right? What can they do to be effective? How does organizationalism hinder the work that these organizations could do? By organizationalism I mean the practice and focus that revolves around membership recruitment, organizational structure and so on. I\'m arguing that the best organizations get members because they *do* things, not because they are virtuous, have the right line, or because they recruit all the time.

\"I hear this same sentiment from a number of people who joint he IWW because they realize the IWW has a lot of respect and good principles, yet they seem to feel it\'s neccesary to make the IWW or anything like it into it\'s opposite.. something totaly differerent.\"

If workers join the IWW and want to change it, doesn\'t it make sense to listen to them? Even Flint will agree with me that the IWW is an organization that is confused about its nature. I\'ll let him explain what I mean. But people should join the IWW because it does stuff for them, not because it has the right principles or preamble. Why did the IWW experience a tripling in membership 5 years ago? Why has it been stagnant since then?

\"Why not simply create a whole new organization? (but of course doing such would suggest a pro-organizational stance).\"

\"For me, if people like Chuck ever succeded in turning anarchist unions, federations, communes, etc into simple TAZs, primitivist clubs, or isolated cells intended for spontenious activities, I myself would simply find them useless and leave, and form a new organization.\"

I have no desire to do these things and have never advocated the crap you are putting in my mouth. I\'ve always felt that there isn\'t *one* correct way to organize social change. Different strokes for different folks.

\"I\'m sure if such a new organization succeeded using the traditional anarchist methods (grass roots democracy, direct action, general strike, solidarity), Chuck would try to join such a group and do the same thing he did with the IWW. It\'s sad. I dont get why he feels the need to do this.\"

Again, you are giving me motives that I don\'t have. I\'ve always favored a \"big tent\" style of anarchism. What exactly did I do to the IWW? This is news to me, so I\'d like some explanation.

\" For someone to say that organizing industrialy is totaly wrong and should be abandoned or is anti-anarchist seems increadible to me. How can one waste time arguing with someone who says such things over and over, never caring what arguments or explanations are used to explain it? He doesnt
seem to care what other anarchists feel or think or why we think the way we do.\"

Wrong again, Ratboy. I always listen to what other anarchist feel and think. Everybody knows that I do this, so you are just shit-talking me again. I\'ve provided some arguments against organizing industrially, or at least thinking that this strategy is the only acceptable one. Above I\'ve also outlined some factors that I think radical unionists should take into consideration, but you didn\'t read that, did you?

\"And also I\'m seeing the same old crap used by Bob Black, etc by folks like Neurotic State here.. the thinly vieled suggestion that all the anarchists he disagrees with are \"leftists\".. of the authoritarian type,
that they support capitalism, authority, fascism, etc.. yet he complains that he\'s being characterized
unfairly if the same arguments are thrown in his direction. What gives? So we\'re all just stalinists, and
because we like to use terms like \"union\", \"organization\", \"undustrial\", etc we have sinister movies,
we\'re all the same as the traditional authoritarian or reformist left, and nothing we do or say will change
his mind. He just doesnt give a shit.\"

This is a really cheap shot. Necrotic State has written many interesting things here and has tied real world examples into the various things being discussed. If anybody has listened to other people, he has been a good model. To compare him to Bob Black (who is a good writer himself) in way designed to dismiss Necrotic\'s words is just really cheap.

\"So we are \"dogmatic\" but of course Neurotic State is never a dogmatist. Huh.\"

Who\'s we?

\" I also see the old tricks: claiming that the ideas the anti work/anti organizational folks dislike are \"old\" they are being \"abandoned\", they are \"out of date\".. \"more and more anarchists are rejecting
organization\", etc.\"

They are old ideas! More anarchists are *questioning* organizationalism, but I doubt that many are rejecting organizations outright. I\'m mystified as to why some anarchists are so defensive when some of us make criticisms of organizations that, if heeded, would *improve* those organizations!

\"Where is the proof? I have seen the opposite, but I\'m sure Neurotic State and Chuck
dont care what I say, or wouldnt pay attention to any proof. They just talk past people like me. These
cliche claims are the same things the advertizing/marketing industry uses for psychological effect: to
present something as better by suggesting that it is \"new\", that it is \"popular\"... so the rest of us who
want to be \"with it\" must do whatever folks like Neurotic State or Chuck, or the other folks supporting
them here say, or we\'ll be \"old\", we\'ll be \"outdated\".\"

You are going off on a tangent here. Proof? Examples? I can serve them up, but will you read them?

\"I could just as easily say that stuff like primitivism/anti-organization/dumpster diving/anti-work are \"old\" ideas that are being \"abandoned\" and people are \"seeing the light\" and \"choosing another path\". I\'m not convinced such statements have any value other than emotional/psychological.\"

Look, dude, can you PLEAAASE stop conflating all the stuff you hate with some kind of unified tendency? This is so lame! You are simply throwing these things together because you see some kind of conspiracy based on who you know I associate with?

I\'m an IWW member and I\'m a critic of organization! I have no problems with dumpster-diving, in fact, I seem to remember that the IWW has always supported bums, hobos, and people who aren\'t working.

Hallelujah I\'m a bum?

\"It is hard to organize a (anarchist) union... but that doesnt mean the idea needs to be abandoned.\"

But is it a good tactic? Can you explain to us some cons of organizing an anarchist union?

\"But the difficulty, boredom, etc. seems to be just a side-note.. the real point here is that I think these
people just dont like the idea of working with other people in a formal, responsible way at all.... even if it is in a libertarian way. When they reject \"democracy\" it isnt simply the sham \"Democracy\" based on government representatives and lots of money we have in the USA, but it is the very basic idea of a democratic process. Hey, if I\'m wrong, let me know. To me, democracy simply means that the people affected by a decision will have a real say in how that decision is implimented. The problem here is that
primitivists/anti-work/anti-organization folks dont like the idea of a process where what they want may
not happen because people simply dont agree with it. It is much esier to demolish your opponent by
discrediting them/demonizing them, and feel that everyone will just naturaly accept your ideas by
\"concensus majority\", because what you believe in is so just, so right, so correct that anyone who
would disagree is obviously wrong, not an anarchist, a closit capitalist, authoritarian, fascist, etc. A real democratic process doesnt make life so simple. It\'s about compromise and determining the truth,
through debate and hard work. (And I dont think \"democratic centralism\" ever meeant anything other than \"Centralized, top-down party rule\"... it\'s an oxymoron and shouldnt be confused with bottom-up
democracy, no more than anarcho-syndicalism should be confused with AFL-CIO style business
unionism).\"

Can you please stop lumping people together who have different opinions and even disgree with each other? Can you stop putting words in my mouth? I have a long track record of working in organizations, respecting the democratic process, and being a responsible activist.

\" I myself dont pretend that a number of people in the anarchist movement will ever feel comfortable in
formal organizations, and I have no problem with them staying independant of them. It\'s important that
the anarchist movement have an organizational aspect and a non-organizational aspect, so that at different times one strategy can work where the other does not.\"

Now we are getting somewhere...

\"But to insist, which these sweeping statements like \"anarchism is anti-organizational\" or \"anarchism is anti industry/factory/civilization\" suggest that we all have no choice but to accept this perspective, or we are not valid anarchists, seems puzzling to me... \"

I don\'t recall making such pronouncements! I\'ve argued my views, but I\'ve never said they were \"correct\" or that \"valid anarchists\" had to adopt them. I would say that anarchism IS anti-factory, since factories are hierarchical things that any anarchist should automatically reject.

\"Zerzan himself has said that primistivism is the only valid form of anarchism, yet I dont hear Chuck complaining about that.\"

If he\'s said that, I would certainly disagree with that. However, I doubt that he\'s said that *primitivism* is the only valid form of anarchism.

\"Let me also point out that I do not think it makes sense to take so much offense at Wayne statement
that unions are so crucial to revolution, and feel that this is an unfair, absolutist statement or implies
that people like Neurotic State or the editors/writers of Anarchy magazine must join and support
anarchist unions.\"

What does Anarchy magazine have to do with this?

My problem with *some* of Wayne\'s arguments are that they fall outside of even *anarcho-syndicalism\" and other forms of anarchist unionism. I agree with some of the things Wayne says, but some of the stuff reads like tepid, uncritical ISO strategy towards big labor.

\"I think it is true that some massive form of union activity is cruicial to revolution, but that in now way means that other forms of activity are invalid.\"

It\'s possible that union activity is crucial to revolution. We just don\'t know because we have no experiential knowledge. At the same time, it\'s foolish to say that union activity is the *only* path toward revolution, which is what some anarchists have argued.

\"What also amazes me is this assumption that groups like the IWW or NEFAC are one-note songs that only focus on labor/class struggle and dont do just as much artsy, fun, spontenious things that any other anarchists do.\"

In my experience, those who advocate unionism the strongest, including many on the sectarian left, are people who do not appreciate artsy, fun stuff in their organizations. The IWW has a long tradition of culture, although it has a problem with fetishizing its past culture instead of creating new stuff. (The current GST has provided a much-needed breath of fresh air in this department).

> I\'m seeing a dichotomy set up here that suggests that \"Workerists\" are stodgey and boring but anti-work anarchists are where all the new, original and cool ideas come from. Well, it\'s not true, and you can keep telling yourself it is that way, but I can tell you it\'s not.

I agree with you. It doesn\'t boil down this simply. It depends what you mean by \"workerist.\" I have a narrow definition: anarchists who dogmatically think that workplace organizing should be the only locus of worker revolt and organizing. In other words, workerists will say stuff like \"Critical Masses are lifestylist.\"

\"As for Chuck being upset about the new issue of ASR and wanting to rip the criticisms of post-leftist anarchism/primitivism to shreds,\"

Who said I was upset about the new issue? First of all, it has a great cover. Secondly, it will be quite easy to rip to shreds any of the arguments that post-leftism is related to primitivism or post-modernism, simply because this isn\'t the case. I suspect that these arguments are being made in the familiar \"guilt by association\" vein. I raise the post-leftism topic for different reasons than other people do. We are living in a post-leftist time, so it makes sense to talk about this in the anarchist context.

\"I dunno Chuck, every time someone complains about an article that attacks anarcho-syndicalism from a primitivist, or when someone complains about someone making an unfair statement attacking the IWW, Chuck goes into defensive mode and says its no big deal, be quiet and dont complain, the argument is valid, the argument is only one person\'s opinion, etc... ok, so how about extending some of that sentiment to the criticism of primitivism/post leftism? Let\'s be fair here, after all. Unless you want to tell me outright that you totaly oppose anarchist unions, formal organizations, federations, grass-roots democracy, etc and always will, and will base everything you say in some polemical way on that. Perhaps that is how you feel and what you want, but at least try not to be surprised when you see anarchists opposing what you stand for with just as much conviction.\"

I have the same problems with how some primitivists engage in debate as I do with anti-primitivists who do similar things. But I\'ve found that, by far, the anti-pimitivists are bigger knee-jerk arguers than the primitivists. What\'s more, this debate has gotten so irrational that those of us who are third parties have been smeared as primitivists, simply because we are friends with, or work on projects with, anarchists who other people consider as primitivists. Recently, some primitivist posted a satirical story to Infoshop News that made fun of NEFAC. I didn\'t approve the piece (which was submitted numerous times), because I really don\'t want that negativity on this board.

\"Lastly, if trying to spark revolution with union organizing is \"insanity\" because it\'s \"doing the same thing
over and over\", how is doing what the anti-organizational anarchists do over and over any better? I dont
see Zerzan\'s strategies getting us closer to revolution, though I guess Zerzan and his supporters insist
that they will if they can just convince people like me to abandon the history of anarchism, abandon
most of it\'s ideas, reject everything and do whatever they say and feel is right.\"

Excuse me, but I\'m not John Zerzan. I\'m not a follower of Zerzan and I disagree with him. I make my arguments against organizationalism based on my experience as an activist.

\" I came to the point
where I am because of how my life worked out, and based on my observations and experiances. I\'ve
read tons of stuff by anti-organizationalists and I\'m just not convinced they know what is best for me or
for anarchism in general. So? Now what do we do? \"

Keep trying out stuff until we get more information on what works.

\"Why cant you just let anarcho-syndicalists be what they are, let NEFAC do what it will, and do what
you want to do?\"

I\'ve never said that none of these people should stop being who they are and what they do. I belong to the IWW and I\'m listed as a NEFAC supporter. However, as an anarchist, I\'m going to criticize.

\"I suppose thats impossible because you want to occupy all the same ideological and physical spaces we inhabit, and push us out...\"

I consider myself to be an anarchist without adjectives who favors the \"big tent of anarchism.\" How is this pushing you out? I provide space on Infoshop.org for all varieties of anarchism. I really wish that people would stop labelling me and suggesting that I\'m in certain camps. I\'m friends with Jason McQuinn of Anarchy magazine and Alexis Buss, who is the GST of the IWW. Does this signify anything about my politics? Only that I\'m an open-minded anarchist.

\"you want to rewrite history to highlite the spontenious,
anti-organizational, anti-work, anti-organizational aspects, and ignore anything that doesnt fit that
model. I cant say I\'m happy with that prospect. I cant speak for other anarchists as a whole but, hell, I
dont think we all want that.\"

I don\'t want that either. What would we do with all those IWW books?

\"I understand that people on this forum who are pissed at the followups to pro-primitivist/post leftist articles feel the need to attack anything the IWW or NEFAC might say (especialy Chuck, who wastes no time denouncing such posts right away, or picks them apart), perhaps to \"get back\" at those of us
who do the same thing to you.\"

I denounce posts that are ambitious, yet poorly argued. I get really pissed at posts that label other people in inaccurate ways. I think that many of the attacks on NEFAC are pretty juvenile, but I also think that some NEFAC organizers are starting to get cocky and self-important.

\"I just want to remind you that those of us on the other side of this little
war are real people, with real anarchist feelings and ideas, and people like Neurotic State who try to
dehumanize us with labels like \"workerist\" (and imply that since we are not saying we are \"anti-work\"
that we are somehow \"pro-work\" or that we weant to force them to work) so we are easy to attack and think little of should realize that things arnt so easy and simple as simply telling people that your
worldview is correct and everyone else has to accept it and that\'s that. (If this was a battle between
capitalists and anti-capitalists, or anarchists and fascists, I am sure it would be different.. but I like to
think that this is not the same.)

OK.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 10:17 AM CDT
For somebody who uses the \"anarchocommunist\" tagline, you certainly have a naive understanding of how capitalism works. In fact, I really have to wonder if you *are* an anarcho-communist. I can see how any anarchist would argue \"that I will never give up my office now or ever. \" You sound like a typical American who goes on about how they love their work. You would keep the entire system of alienation and capitalism going so that you can hang out in your office? You do realize, don\'t you, that many people *hate* office work? What kind of productive, life-affirming work will your office provide after the revolution? How are you going to coerce other free people to do the work to keep the elctricity in your office running? What about the paper and all the products in your office? Are people going to have to work in the plastics factory to provide you with office equipment? Are people who are liberated from capitalism and have lots of free time on their hands, going to volunteer to work in a plastic factory?

I think not, which is why you really haven\'t thought out your politics vis a vis capitalism.

As far as semiconductor plants go, there simply can\'t be any in an anarchist society. This kid of high technology requires an industrialized state and a global system of resources extraction and cheap labor in order to run. You can\'t set up a DIY semiconductor plant. If it was that easy, there would be plants in places like Somalia or Ghana.

There really is a serious ignorance problem among anarchists who think that we can keep a high tech society around after a revolution. This is an attitude that can only be expressed by privileged anarchists living in the industrialized world. It\'s almost like some of you are *afraid* to live like the rest of the world. You know, the human species has gotten along fine without computers, cars, and George Lucas flicks for thousands of years. And the technology and comforts that many of you think we can maintain in an anarchist society are based on a capitalist system that steals resources from the Global South.

I am not making some kind of primitivist argument here. If you understand how capitalism works and you are advocating a world that isn\'t capitalist, you have to recognize the things that can *only* happen within capitalism. Even anarcho-syndicalists are against alienated labor, even if they are a bit liberal with the worker-owned workplace idea.
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 05:42 AM CDT
\"but I have problems with those anarchists who think we can have a collectived semiconductor plant after a revolution\"

Chuck0 -- why? Maybe *you* dont like working in a semiconductor plant, but there certainly are people who would want to work there. You also say there is no place for \"offices\" in your post-revolution world. As much as I hate talking about \"post-revolution\" rather than \"getting to revolution,\" I must say that I will never give up my office now or ever.

\"You do know that many people around the world live on the land without all the trappings of American consumer society, right?\"

Boring and useless analysis to me. And non-strategic. \"End Capitalism -- Throw Away Your Consumer Trappings!\" ... sounds more like 1920s temperance movement to me rather than anything I want to be involved in.

Necrotic\'s tirade of \"everyone\'s work is useless\" continues with: \"How many slurpy meetings will I have to attend each week when you collectivize my 7-11?\"

To be honest, I don\'t know ... what I do know is that 7-11 is an efficient method of food/toiletries/etc distribution in a pyramid-scheme economic system. You got a better idea? Lets fucking hear it, because otherwise you are just making bitter anti-social comments with no more substance than a nirvana song.

You almost had me with your \"priorities\" talk, but then you wrote that \"Again, more reaction from the left.\" and I remembered why I was arguing this to begin with. Recognition of the \"workplace\" and work and social work and individual work is not \"leftist.\" It is common sense. Your complete dismissal of workplace organizing strategy, based in an anti-work position, is really problematic to me as an anarchist fighting to win on this continent. In other words, dont talk shit on workplace organizing, whether it is unions or in connection with other struggles or whatever.



comment by giuseppe
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 01:44 PM CDT
anarchocommie, you are totally incapable of engaging in a real discussion judging from your last post which completely ignores and dismisses any objection or criticism to your utopian scheme of more-of-the-same-but-without-a-boss. a real response would deal with the issue of resource extraction, commodity production, wage labor, and the other minor details of capitalism. you can\'t just wave your syndicalist magic wand and make all that stuff self-managed \"after the revolution\" without dealing with the oppressive, hierarchical, centralized nature of the beast. the main reason that (for example) miners in brazil dig bauxite from the earth to provide manufacturing conglomerates in america and europe with the raw material to make aluminum is that they are faced with starvation if they don\'t; their subsistence has already been destroyed, their lives already transformed into an alienated existence by the intrusion of capitalism. or do you think that they all volunteered to be miners in order to buy refrigerators and computers?
comment by dadanarchist
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 02:17 PM CDT
\"And dont worry, we wont have need for resource extraction anymore, no need for fuel or energy, we\'ll all float on to our destinations on magic anarchist clouds which pick us up and take us to where we\'re going.\"

Why do we need to extract resources? If people were clever, they could use what we already have, plus some innovative techniques, and some tried and true methods to build a new society where resource extraction was unnecessary. There is already enough stuff in this world for most of it to live in comfort. It just needs to be evenly distributed and sensibly (un)managed. Are you going to drill oil to run your car? Are you going to explain to the hostile Amazon tribe that oil extraction is really in the best interests of the community? Are you going to repair all the damage to the natural world when you\'re done drilling?

\"And let me finish by saying this ... dont tell any normal people about your wingnut plans of never working, living like \"the Global South does\" (a condescending remark if you understood how much technology actually exists throughout these parts of the world) and smashing all technology, medicine, etc. If you keep telling normal (i.e. non-political) people this, no one will ever take us seriously. And why should they? It is a bunch of loony babbling about nothing.\"

Normal? Who are normal people? Americans? Westerners? Northern peoples? I was reading the news yesterday, on Derrick Jensen\'s website, to go back over his interview with Kevin Bales on slavery in the present day. One billion people(yeah thats right) make about $1 a day. Another one billion make about $5 a day. Even accounting for inflation, yadda yadda yadda, these people are dirt fucking poor. And do you know what most of them probably want? I can make a guess: enough food, health care when necessary, and to be left the fuck alone. To not be forced to work, to not be kidnapped into slavery, to not have their limbs cut off by rebel groups fighting over diamonds used in computer chip production, to not see their rivers, skies and fields filled with poisons. They want to be left alone, to live, and to not be bled dry by the 5% of the world\'s population who consumes most of its resources. We will still have technology - tools, creativity - but not a technological system. We will probably have better health care, because we will focus on preventitive health care, we will have a clean environment and a healthy diet, plenty of time outdoors, etc. Life simply would be better with the critical and selective use of technology, rather than its totalized application to every sector of life and corner of the world.

An industrialized anarchist society is a pipe-dream, or something out of a sci-fi novel. At this point, the contiunued existence of an industrial society of any type is a pipe dream.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 02:21 PM CDT
You aren\'t LISTENING! I never argued for the end of all technological developments or resource extraction. Even in an anarchist world there will be tree cut down and welding. My point is that some anarchists want to continue the current industrial world around them, but think that it can be run on an anarchist basis. No, I\'m not against paperwork, like the stuff that is necessary to organize a food coop, but I think we\'re all against living in a society where people go work in offices and shift paper around. Do you want a continuation of office complexes, with their division of labor, required commuting, and so on? Who is going to join you at your anarchist office when we can play most of the day and only have to spend a few hours doing necessary work?

Come on, this is basic anarchist stuff! I\'m sure that even the anarcho-syndicalists would agree with me that there would be many occupations and workplaces eliminated after the revolution. When we get to that point, we can decide in our communities what kind of technology and industry we want to continue. Many communities may decide to continue some kind of physical plant to make medicine and medical equipment. Many communities may decide to discontinue making cars and opt to just fix up the ones that currently exist. Obviously, if we no longer have a society that requires commuting and physical seperation of our daily activities, we won\'t be using all of these damn cars. Communities could mothball cars and would only havve to use a few.

Sounds like a good idea to me.
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 02:28 PM CDT
holy cow!

\"I know quite a few geeks from the Global South who will be surprised to hear that do-gooder anarchists from the industrialized countries want to smash their computers and tell them they cant use computers anymore.\"

Please point out where I or anyone else said that computers should be smashed or not used every again. I think what we said was that the manufacture of brand-new computers will be close to impossible, PRACTICALLY speaking, in an anarchist society. It has a lot more to do with practical considerations, not moralistic judgements. I\'m all for using computers -- I\'m no primitivist -- but I think that the absence of authoritarian networks of production and distribution will prohibit large-scale production of complex technologies. Please re-read that sentence and understand what I\'m saying before you tar me with the \"lazy primitivist\" brush again.

And who said that the \"plan\" was not only to never work, but to make sure that no one else could ever work? Hey, if you\'d like to spend hours in a collectivized, liberated factory, that\'s no problem with me. Just don\'t ask me to spend some time \"volunteering\" in the steel mills or silicon mines so that your factory has something to produce.
comment by Post-Leftist
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 03:43 PM CDT
See my post on the CAW Starbucks unstrike!

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/stories.php?story=02/05/16/7168941
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Thursday, May 16 2002 @ 06:44 PM CDT
First, as I mentioned on the CAW Startbucks thread, I didn\'t write the Post-Leftist diatribe that was posted there. You\'ll see what I mean.

Anyhow, I want to agree with ChuckO\'s replies above. I don\'t want to respond point by point to anarcho-communist or Ratman\'s post, but I think it\'s pretty clear that he\'s made a lot of assumptions that do not reflect my politics or things that I even said on this discussion thread. But, I figure that is obvious, so I won\'t go into it any further.

I would like to flesh out my point on collectivization, abandonment of the means of production, priorities and anti-work, which seem to be the source of some confusion (and misrepresentation).

First, I am not opposed to collectivization or expropriation. I am for democratic workers\' control of the means of production. I recognize that the ownership of these means is vital to understanding capitalist society, but I also understand that because we live (excuse the primitivist term) domesticated lives where our options are very limited in terms of providing for ourselves without participating in alienated work, that attacking ownership alone does not solve the problem of alienated labor (for instance, there is a garden at my house, but, since we rent, it can all go away if I can\'t make rent).

What I mean is that, while focusing on the means of production may have made sense when people still had a relationship to real production (even if it was in factories, leaving environmental concerns aside for now), now they have little relevance since we have moved into a post-industrial economy in which my relationship to real production is but a ghost in most cases.

For instance, I had a (non-union) job doing shipping and receiving for a company that sold diamond blades for construction sites (to cut through concrete, etc). Now, what is my relationship to production? I don\'t create blades. I don\'t cut concrete. I don\'t even deliver the goods from factory to jobsite. I don\'t dig diamonds. I just filled orders and gave them to the UPS or Fed Ex guy when he came. Mostly, I just filled out paperwork and did inventory. Sometimes I took orders over the phone. Collectivizing my job will not alter my level of alienation (in fact, it might increase it if I now have to participate in self-management and all the meetings that would entail). Time may have been, when I could have worked in a factory making something that was meaningful (in that particular historical context), it might have been valuable to me to take over the means of production and reorganize, though continue, production, my work.

But things have changed. And we live in an economy that has overproduced so much stuff that even those people who do that kind of work (building cars, let\'s say) would really have no purpose in an anarchist society. We don\'t want the car makers to continue churning out cars after the revolution! We live in a society that has many, many cars per person! As mentioned before, different types of living will make all those cars pointless anyhow.

So, what is my motivation to collectivize my workplace, within the context of revolutionary strategy? Higher wages, some say. Better benefits (or any at all). Well, I ask again, what are the benefits in terms of REVOLUTIONARY strategy? Those are all reformist goals, particularly within the union structure. Several people have said that unions are valuable for the simple fact that they have raised the pay in this country for so many workers. Well, that may be true, but what has the effect been on labor, since then? Do we have a militant labor force? Not at all. Quite the opposite in fact. We have a pacified labor force that generally supports each and every imperialist adventure abroad by the US government, largely because, whether sub-consciously or consciously, they understand that their standards of living depend on it.

So, that\'s one reason to be against organized labor. But, that\'s also not to say that improvements in living themselves are things that should not be fought for, but if we want to extract these concessions from capitalism, without also pacifying workers through the horse and pony show of unionism that takes grievances that would otherwise be dealt with through direct action and turns them into drawn-out, sleepy procedures that evoke little in the way of action then we need to be doing something else (and just why is everyone so afraid to tell people that they are living exploitative lives and that maybe pushing for that raise to buy a new car isn\'t the best idea). Hell, I\'ve worked without contracts before while the sleepy machinations of the bosses and management continue to draw their big salaries.

So the point is, not only is collectivization not a solution to my problem of alienated labor, it also, when pursued through the union, is a strategy that leads to the pacification of workers.

Which is why I say that workplace organizing (in terms of unionization) is not, in my opinion a worthwhile strategy, because it\'s short term goals are reformist and its long-term effects are pacifying. And, when the workers in these unions get out of hand and start pushing for real change, it\'s the leadership that reigns them in. I really think the comparison to voting is a really good one. Even when unions adopt so-called revolutionary long-term goals, they are out of skew with their short-term function - to deliver reforms that are formalized through contract (enforced by the State, ideally). I suggest that organizing informally avoids this pitfall. It promotes a militant workforce, because gains must be defended by direct action. It promotes solidarity because direct action is usually backed up by collective action (although not always). And it\'s flexible and not subordinate to any conservative leadership. In this context (anti-union), it becomes clear that its very easy to link direct action, militancy and collective action with not only the receiving of new rights, but the maintainance of those rights and the fact that continued application of those values could push things even farther. Under unions, the specialists (lawyers, elected leadership, etc) quickly swoop in, takes control out of the workers and sends everyone back to work. That does not empower.

The strategy of unionization also presumes that we will collectivize all our workplaces, which again, makes little sense to me. All that seems to do, when under the structure of a union, is build a power base for that union. As such, the union will certainly look unkindly on those within it who opt not to work or who advocate an abandonment of those jobsites. And, of course, that\'s what we see, even from syndicalist unions (I\'ve cited it before, but \"Workers Against Work\" does a good job at highlighting this tendency).

This is because, in my belief, the underlying presumptions of workplace collectivization are those of continued work. Which is why I say again that informality solves this problem. Informality provides the flexibility for those who want to continue working after the revolution to do so with out creating a power base from which someone may threaten the gains of the revolution (which is really what it is when a union boss calls a strike back from the brink). It also allows those who opt not to continue work to do so without worrying about incurring the wrath of any self-appointed power.

However, what I am saying is that, since all that is true, then focusing on workplace organizing is probably not something worth doing for anarchists. Most of these kinds of resistance show up spontaneously when needed. That is, they are the result of workers autonomous reactions to changing conditions. We cannot presume what form they will necessarily take. We can make some guesses by looking around and looking at history though. One thing we can pretty much say with a fair amount of certainty is that they will not be unions.

So, in essence what I am saying is that we can then spend our time organizing around other issues that probably have more revolutionary potential. Again, I suggest police brutality. Autonomous copwatches, as mentioned, can become more and more militant over time (as conditions necessitate) without having to consult with some overarching authority, can be linked to specific revolutionary goals and attack a very real problem in society (white supremacy). In addition, we need people not to call the cops in the first place, so we need to create community mediation so that the cops are around as little as possible (or at least we\'re not calling them on ourselves). Then, if the union, or the informally organized workers go on strike or occupy their workplaces, we have a way to defend them. Or, more likely, when the workers abandon the means of production, we have a way to keep the pigs from coming in and forcing them back.

While there is a lot of alienated labor out there, there is also a lot of people in the US who are very content with their rate of pay. A lot of that has to do with the transfer of wealth that has been discussed above (and is facillitated in many ways by unions). However, while that\'s true there\'s also a lot of people who are quite unhappy. Most of them are un-unionized. And most of them also have real problems with the cops. So, since they\'re un-unionized, it makes little sense to try to unionize them, especially since there seems to be ample evidence to suggest that that is the first step towards co-opting them and pacifying them. So, we can encourage them to find their (our) own natural forms of resistance in the workplace that reflect that specific circumstance (and right now those are informal theft, sabotage, slacking at one end and killing bosses and management at the other extreme). I am convinced that it will not be a formal organization, because most people are not too interested in formal organizing around that issue (or else they\'d be doing it). But, since the oppressed in general, and black and brown people specifically, have real problems with the cops daily, that is a potential point around which we can organize right now that has a lot of potential and also does not require all the hullabaloo of getting people into unions does.

How long does it take from the first red card is signed until the contract is? Years, often, if ever (after all, you can put all that work in and it could fail just as well as it could succeed). I can get someone copwatching tomorrow. And then can do it themselves, without ever asking me for anything again, if they want. And it always works. This is why I think it\'s a better place to be putting our energies.

But I\'m still waiting to hear the advantages of joining a union. I hear words like solidarity thrown around but my practical experience tells me that unions have no monopoly on that. In fact, they are often in opposition to it, particularly on a global scale, but even here in the US.
comment by redtwister
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 01:49 AM CDT
Workers\' own inactivity (mine included) is a source of weakness. But a lot of this discussion fails to take into account the vast multitude of ways that workers resist being exploited every day. Just because that resistance is not always on the surface does not mean it doesn\'t exist. The unionist argument always seems to me to imply that without the union the workers aren\'t doing shit. The Sojourner Truth article reflects not just an \'empirical observation\', but their own limited conception of resistance and struggle and their own limited scope. And to hear revolutionaries complaining about how the workers are keeping them from organizing smeels like sour milk to me. As if union organizers and revolutionaries were pure souls ready to go the whole way now, and not the people most likely to trail behind when the revolution comes. That kind of elitist crap needs to be dumped (and it goes along with idealizing \'militant\' workers.) Anyway...

Workplace organizing is definitely important to me. Since the key to capital is alienated labor, our own alienated self-activity, then I can\'t find any reason not to make workplace struggle central to my life. Shit, its where I spend most of my time.

But that also means that most housewives (and househusbands like my currently unemployed self) and students have to struggle in their workplaces, too. But that isn\'t Wayne Price\'s workplace, is it? And they aren\'t really workers for him, are they? Nope, its the same old conception of \'work\' as something done for wages alone.

Nor does it mean that we have to work with the existing unions, as he tries to play off. There are plenty of examples of alternative ways of organizing, such as the COBAS in Italy, SUD in France and others. Some of them do not consider themselves unions, but they all engage in workplace organizing.

Wildcat organizes in workplaces, but does not participate in the unions, rather seeing them as generally part of the enemy. You would think that US radicals might grasp that after the 1980\'s and all the attacks shoved down our throats by the existing trade unions, after all the deals the AFL-CIA made with the US State Department and CIA, after all of the betrayals from Day One of the CIO (not to mention the AFL), that the shrinking of the unions (the existing unions), is very logical and their reformability reasonably questionable. But Oh No!

Maybe then Wayne Price would at least have had the temerity to propose that an alternative unionism or workplace organizing might be part of a revolutionary renewal, not just the same old unions. Hell, people, the CIO was a break with the existing unions, a kind of dual unionism. Of course, it was also used to reign in and control worker militancy and recuperate developing mass struggles. Of course, it also gave some struggles shape. It would have had to do both to survive, since anarchism/communism won\'t need unions and the bosses wouldn\'t tolerate them except as a concession to save their own asses.

The issue is, \'good\' unions or not, whether revolutionaries like it or not, we have to organize in the workplace and will often do it through unions of one sort or another. So what do we do?

Do we promote workers joining the unions? Do we HAVE TO? No, we don\'t and no we shouldn\'t. Our task is to help expand and extend every struggle we are a part of and to defend whatever increases the autonomy, self-control, self-consciousness, and militancy of our fellow workers. Union or no union. Where the union opposes that, we fight the union too. Where the union does not, we can work with the union, but only in so far as we make it clear that no organization designed to survive REGARDLESS of the level of worker militancy can avoid becoming part of the problem. That includes our own revolutionary organizations, very often, not just unions.

Sorry if I don\'t have prescriptive suggestions, but I find that they are bad abstractions outside of real situations. The problem involves having a politics and trying to always think what that politics means for your practice. I can\'t tell you what it means, i can only share my practice and my politics, and hope we help each other.

On \'anti-work\'. The anti-intellectualism of the complaints against anti-work is sad. I am against work because capitalism is nothing but the endless imposition of work. Demanding a 6 hour day is anti-work. Demanding more and longer breaks is anti-work politics. Fighting speed up and producitivity deals is anti-work. The bulk of post-WWII struggles which opposed the increasing monotony and misery of mass production and wage-producitivty trade offs were anti-work. The refusal of having life turned into work and commodified leisure is anti-work. The hostility to alienating, miserable, self-destroying activity is anti-work. Revolution means the end of work and the working class; not the end of creative self-activity or production of things subordinated to human needs, but the introduction of such a life for the first time.

As such, an anti-work politics is not hard to conceptualize. I encourage my co-workers to actively think about why they avoid work. Why they play video games at work or surf the Net or write friends e-mail. The refusal of work is the refusal to have our labor power realized as activity for capital. That means strikes and sabotage and shiftlessness and all kinds of resistance.

Not all of it is revolutionary or collective or even helpful. Certainly, we want it to become conscious and collective and generalized. But we need to start by abandoning the idea that what workers need is more work. More work is more capitalism. We need less work. Work is NOT the only way to live. And the difference is not small nor is it wordplay. If it was, people would not \'work for the weekend\' or organize assembly lines so people could take naps and breaks and leave early. Workaholics are counterrevolutionaries. work is death. Work is self-alienation.

Anti-work might mean not simply striking, but redirecting our activity. Striking hospital workers might refuse to charge for medical care, start free community medical care, steal medical supplies, etc. Teachers and students can start free schools (or something else without the school stigma) organized according to more cooperative, student-based models. Computer workers might help a community center or take calls from ouside the business and build community news and networks. Help with literacy and research and such. Autoworkers might do something crazy like refuse to build SUV\'s or vehicles not fitted with designs that would double (yep, the technology is out there) gas mileage.

This creative aspect of anti-work is exactly what Price\'s article lacks. That along with its obvious confusion of \'blue collar\' proles and \'white collar\' professionals. Most of us are workers and very few are not, maybe 10% of the population. Price\'s article is Leftist nostalgia posing as revolutionary ideas, not least because he thinks he knows what we need to do when after 100+ years it hasn\'t worked.

Not that Price\'s defenders are entirely wrong. I am not arguing that anyone tear up a union card, though in some cases that would be fine. I\'m just saying that workers\' autonomy and self-reliance overrides the question of unions, which is in the end, just one form of workplace struggle, and not the most revolutionary.

In practice, for example, that would mean I always argue for democratically elected strike or work action committees, even with a \'good\' union present, simply because workers need direct control over their own actions. The union structure is rarely, if ever, a terribly mass democratic apparatus. They are designed to run in times when no such participation exists.

Sorry if I find little or none of this in Price\'s piece, but rather a tepid rehash of old news.

Chris

comment by redtwister
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 02:00 AM CDT
Aw jeez. Are you serious? The SEIU is a bigger organization because it is so damn good? Really? If that is so, please change your name, as that is neither an anarchist or a communist response.

The SEIU happens to negotiate the rate of exploitation, which is what the current low level of struggle sees as mostly possible. And without workers\' own initiative to organize, unions like SEIU would not be getting members.

Have you noticed Sweeney\'s own repression of the SEIU, his old local in particular?

Have you noticed rapidly declining union membership, which started in the 1950\'s, despite, the mass infusion of public employee unions in the 1960\'s? Did you notice, along with Flint I hope, that the large non-white membership in unions in part went along with the unionization of public employees and the fact of the basic failure of integration outside of public employment? That meant that Black workers got equal opportunity jobs disprportionately in the Public Sector, which was the only place the State worked terribly hard to get desegregation. Surprise, the biggest unions ended up with lots of Black and Latino members.

That does not make those unions radical or militant, though many members are. Nor does it make those unions active in workplace politics, since they can\'t even legally strike (and generally don\'t).

Not only that, since when will revolutionaries ever be the majority? What a fallacious argument . What conservative nonsense. What a baldly ridiculous comparison. Shame for saying that with a straight face, tradeunionist.
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 05:14 AM CDT
Anarcho-Communist:

First of all, I\'d like to dispute your characterization of the discussion that you make in the fist part of your post. That doesn\'t reflect my understanding of how things went. A re-reading of the posts that lead up to this point should suffice to correct this, although surely I never suggested that stealing paperclips was revolutionary, nor did I say that workplace democracy was useless (you\'re putting words in my mouth). In fact, what I did was propose a different, alternate, model that drew in real world experience, history and theory, but which clearly supported expropriation and collectivization.

Interestingly, one thing I do not hear from you is real world experience. You keep attributing things to me that I did not say. Among them is how out of touch I am and how I am not offering alternatives. Both of these are bull, because I have repeatedly offered alternatives and I have repeatedly brought my own real-life experience into it (as in, I have brought in my own experience in union shops and in doing copwatch for two years, specifically).

However, what I have not heard from you is real life experience. What is your experience that backs up your theory? In the interest of moving forward towards a winning strategy (in terms of overthrowing capitalism and the state), what types of experience do you have? As I said before, I am interested in bringing the two together, and I actively combine the two in my own organizing. So, of course I am interested in what you have to say in this regard.

Unfortunately, your post ends with a bunch of questions that I\'d rather like to hear you answer instead. I went out of my way to point out that I am not against collectivization in my last post. I tend to believe that the best way to make sure that the things that need to keep being done are done is to organize informally (see my last post for why, which I laid out extensively).

What is your plan? For instance, I don\'t have a problem with people deciding to continue cleaning the water. I just think that if we all organize formally in unions that someone, like you perhaps, is likely to tell me that if I dare stop selling (or making) widgets that I am screwing over the water-cleaners, and therefore I should keep working in the interest of the revolution. And there is a lot of historical evidence for this presumption.

That\'s a tactic that\'s been used before. I\'m trying to create a praxis (if I can use a Marxist term). Living in a fantasy world of either/ors is not going to get us any closer to serious change. I\'d like to hear some concrete ideas (as in backed up by your own experience) from you.

Of course, the condense version of this is, your last post leads me to ask, \"did you even read my post?\"
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 09:14 AM CDT
Holy shit!

So we want a future society where there is no semi-conductor production because such production requires a global distribution of goods and for some reason some people think such a distribution is not compatable with anarchism.

Why?

The reality is that there are lots and lots of jobs that will have to be done after the revolution and which are very unpleasent now. So we will have to find ways to make them more pleasant and where this is not possible to share this work out between a lot of people.

For an example I spent a while working as a hospital porter which is a shit paid job at the bottom of the hospital food chain. You get to transport nasty chemicals around, collect those who have recently died and put them into the morgue and best of all collect bags of body parts and human waste for immediate incineration. It\'s really shit paid and unlike nursing you don\'t even get the feeling that you have helped someone get better.

But I can\'t see a hospital function without someone doing this sort of work. And suffering from two conditions which would literally cripple me (and so probably kill me) in a low tech society I am not interested in any future without hospitals. So the work I did will have to be done, perhaps by sharing it out among all medical workers.

This is a minor example, as has been rightly pointed out there are lots of goods which reguire materials that right now are extracted in the most brutal manner (aluminium is another example). We will have to deal with that but the idea that we can somehow cease to use all metals (all of them involve mining, a seriously dangerous and unpleasant job and nearly all of them require huge energy inputs in extraction) is not only daft it is impossible with the worlds current population.

The Spanish anarchists had a slogan long before the \'36 revolution \'those who won\'t work, won\'t eat\'. This addressed the huge numbers of people who made no contribution to society, in their case the bosses and the large numbers of priests and nu ns, in the situation where vast numbers lived on the edge of starvation. On the global scale this is what the world still looks like.
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 09:18 AM CDT
You live in a society (the USA) which has many, many cars per person. Most of the worlds population do not have access to motorised transport. After the revolution they will want the car factories to run for a while at least, hopefully churning out some form of clean energy collective transport (eg a mini-bus or SUV which are the backbone of intercity transport in North Africa).
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 09:21 AM CDT
The bigger problem here though is your whole outlook. You see anarchism in terms of being against aspects of the current system, eg police brutality. This is all very well but we can only build an alternative by being for something and struggling for this in a collective fashion. Unions offer one way of building a movement for stuff amongst ordinary people in the here and now.
comment by Andrew
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 09:41 AM CDT
But perhaps if you stop making widgets it will be screwing over the water cleaners if that widget is essential to their job. You seem to want some sort of post revolutionary world where human co-operation will always be a choice and never be a nessicity. Such a world is no longer possible and probably became impossible once we settled down in agricultural communites. These meant someone was going to have to get the clean water and someone was going to have to take the trash to a dumping spot (or someone was going to have to take the trash off the street after you had chucked it out you door).

I give a practical example of being a hospital porter above. But the general point is that there are thousands of jobs that someone is going to have to do if a modern city is to function. This goes all the way from the someone who grows the food that will be consumed in the city to the someone who sits in an office sorting out the transport of that food to the city to the someone who keeps track of the storage and distibution of the food to the someone who can walk into the collective store and take the food off the shelves. All these someones are dependent on each other (the growed because they need someone to provide the other goods and service they need).

If you have a problem with the widget making then this is a problem you have to sort out with society. The odds are that it is possible to work this out so people spend an absolute minimum of time on the boring work. At the moment a lot of boring work can be automated but this only happens if those doing it now are highly paid enough to make this economical. But still there may be work that someone has to do and anarchist society will have to sort this out.
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 03:21 PM CDT
Actually, I offered up community mediation as a positive activity (rather than the negative of copwatching) that I believe satisfies all the criteria you laid out as benefits from unionization (community building, creating alternatives, solidarity, etc). Used in conjunciton with working to stop the cops, this looks like a quite feasable (and in my experience it is feasable) alternative to focusing our organizing around the workplace, which, as I said before, I believe to have little relevance for most people these days.

Again, words are being put in my mouth, though, so I am beginning to wonder if perhaps some anarchists are so stuck in their work-centered way of viewing the world that they just can\'t fathom that one could organize a revolution around something other than that and still collectivize and expropriate. I keep getting this weird either/or thing from people on here. That, somehow, since I am for focusing on police brutality, etc, then I must be against all other things in general, and workplace organizing specifically.

That\'s not the case, unless we\'re talking about unionizing workplaces, which I did say I was against. See my previous posts where I clearly said that I am for collectivization of what remains of work after the revolution. I think that informality is the best way to insure that we can do that, because I believe that the unions will operate like powers unto themselves during a time of crisis and will in fact hinder the re-organization of society (i.e., the means of production, etc). That\'s my reading of history, and my experience working with unions corroborrates this.

And, of course, I never said that there won\'t be some unpleasant work after the revolution. Again, I think that points of view are being ascribed to me that people think are similar based on how they are trying to pigeon-hole my politics.

But, I ask again (for the third time, I think), what are the advantages of unionization? How are those advantages exclusive to unionization (as opposed to, say, the alternative I laid of of copwatch, mediation, prison work, etc)? I\'m hearing a lot of vaguaries about how my ideas won\'t work, but I am not hearing any defense of the issue at hand: anarchists supporting unions (and I don\'t agree with your conclusions about my alternative).

Clearly, the benefits can\'t be solidarity and community, because those things can come from a football team (and my example, as well). It can\'t be collectivization, because history shows that unions, particularly in the US, have generally been against that (although informality doesn\'t seem to have that weakness). It can\'t be democracy, because unions are infamously undemocratic. It can\'t be reducing work, because unions are also infamously protestant in their work ethic (read about the CNT\'s response to idlers or those who simply wanted to work less and see what I mean). I\'m not seeing any values at all that are inherent and exclusive to union organizing, but I am seeing a lot of disadvantages.

But, I\'m beginning to think that I\'m not going to get answers to those questions. I also am beginning to think that people are stuck in their dogmatic way of viewing the world, in which the anarchist history of supporting unions (when that may have been an appropriate and understandable tactic) is being used to say that no other alternative strategy is possible. It\'s as if these people are saying that the world has not changed at all in 80 or a 100 years. I really think that the anarchists of yore, if they were here today, would be primarily organizing around something other than the workplace because they would recognize that the situation has changed considerably. Back then they didn\'t have 2 million people in prison. They didn\'t have a militarized police force. And, of course, even back then anarchists were not able to recognize the importance of white supremacy, so we can certainly ascribe some of their failure to see other issues than work to that myopia (a failure that still haunts the anarchist movement today). Our history isn\'t the bible. It\'s there to be learned from, but not to dictate to us. But, of course, the real irony is that their strategy didn\'t work even back then, thus making it even more comical that people adhere to it like gospel. It\'d be one thing if it had worked...
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 03:37 PM CDT
\"surely I never suggested that stealing paperclips was revolutionary, nor did I say that workplace democracy was useless ... what I did was propose a different, alternate, model that drew in real world experience\"

It is your \"alternate model\" of abandoning workplace struggles that I am arguing against. Shifting your position all over the place doesn\'t help. Allow me to refresh your memory:
\"However, what I am saying is that, since all that is true, then focusing on workplace organizing is probably not something worth doing for anarchists.\"

\"what I am saying is that we can then spend our time organizing around other issues that probably have more revolutionary potential. Again, I suggest police brutality\"

\"Again, more reaction from the left.\"

Meanwhile, to justify this departure from labor struggles, you say that most \"work\" will be abolished \"after the revolution.\"

So, really, I know that an anti-work and anti-labor position is indefensible upon examination, but it would be better to just be upfront about where your analysis went wrong rather than trying to constantly rephrase it so it sounds better. The condensed version is: \"do *you* read your posts?\"

And, in answer to your questions, I think obviously what I am advocating is revolutionary social struggle through workplace collectivization, a proven tactic and one that is theoretically necessary. I will repeat again that this thread began because someone from NEFAC posted a strategic analysis on workplace organizing and anarchism, and it was responded to with every anti-union kneejerk response you can think of. And the reason given for that is that \"workplace organizing isnt for anarchists.\"

My hope is that the result of this discussion is that labor struggles can be critiqued with an informed anarchist strategy, rather than a bunch of red-baiting anti-worker garbage.
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 03:58 PM CDT
You\'re hopeless, anarcho-communist. I\'m going to say for the millionth time that I am not for abandoning workplace struggles. These struggles go on whether we like it or not. What I propose is an alternate model, informality, which I believe solves many of the traditional problems of unions and revolution (and I expounded at some length how that is so, however you have not responded to those points). I also believe that our focus should be elsewhere, however, in terms of most of our energy. When I said that thing about it not being worth doing for anarchists, I was speaking in the context of unionization. Since then I have more than fleshed out my point, which you still seem unable to comprehend. I clearly said \"organizing\" in the context of unionization, which I oppose. Oh well, we\'ll just chalk it up to miscommunication, I guess.

Honestly, most work will probably be abolished during the revolution, when people simply quit going to their bullshit jobs (or before, for those who can). And, likely, that will be accompanied by much concerned hand-wringing from union, capitalist and state bureaucrats alike (and probably much violence, justified by all three, if history is a guide).

Also, I wish you would stop putting things in quotes that are not quotes, but are rather your particular paraphrasing of something someone said (or your guess about what you think they might say). They\'re not the same thing and they allow you to manipulate the discussion in ways that do not represent the real statements of anyone participating in it.
comment by anarchocommunist
Authored by: Anonymous on Friday, May 17 2002 @ 04:44 PM CDT
\"You\'re hopeless, anarcho-communist. I\'m going to say for the millionth time that I am not for abandoning workplace struggles.\"

Huh??? I hope you are convincing yourself... again: \"However, what I am saying is that, since all that is true, then focusing on workplace organizing is probably not something worth doing for anarchists.\"

So, let\'s not pretend like you didnt say that. That doesnt mean you cant change your position. But at least call it that and recognize that your disrespectful and unfounded attacks on workplace organizing wasnt helping anyone.

What you want to do is waver between a critique of workplace organizing and a critique of traditional, mainstream unions. If what you said is shown to be rude and disrespectful, well, oops you were talking about *mainstream unions*, not workplace organizing in general (even though you used the words \"workplace organizing\") If you go back and actually read your post about how workplace organizing isnt worthwhile for anarchists, you will see that it is in fact more about collectivization than it is about unions, start reading at \"The strategy of unionization also presumes that we will collectivize all our workplaces, which again, makes little sense to me\".

And even after all that, you still fall back on your ridiculous contention that \"Honestly, most work will probably be abolished during the revolution, when people simply quit going to their bullshit jobs\"

Maybe we can just invent a bunch of robots and they can deal with the messy issues of real life like sewage, water, the environment, disposing of nuclear waste, health care systems, etc. Apparently we are above dealing with that, which is probably mostly bullshit anyways mannn

And people say that anarchists are young, naive and dont know how the real world works. I dont know where they get that idea, do you?


comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, May 18 2002 @ 04:58 AM CDT
Anarcho-Communist:

I see you\'ve substituted asterisks for quotation marks when it comes to the way you misrepresent people\'s statements...

\"[W]orkplace organizing\" was used, as I said, in the context of defining \"anti-organizational\", which I think re-reading my posts will help you understand (see \"informality\"). And when I said that collectivizing _all_ our workplaces made little sense, I still stand by that. I can think of all kinds of workplaces that I think would be better left abandoned (or smashed) than collectivized. What about the police, for instance, who are already moving towards collectivization in the sense that they are universally unionized. Where should anarchists come down on the issue of police unionization, then?

I still stand by my point that I oppose unionization. I said that from the beginning. What you perceive as two seperate critiques (mainstream unions and formality) are in fact one critique that you cannot understand. That\'s fine, though.

But I still notice that you have not answered any of my criticisms. I also notice that no one else gives a shit about this thread except you, so I\'m going to end my participation on this unless someone other that you pipes up. If you want help understanding what I am saying, email me privately (and I\'ll do my best, assuming you don\'t just continue the same bullshit). But I encourage you to consider bringing in your practical experience, history and reality in your response. Your lack of the above makes me think you have none. And the way you dodge questions makes me think you have nothing new to bring to the discussion.
comment by Techno-Anarchist
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, May 18 2002 @ 09:06 AM CDT
One tyme i posted a well writen comment on an article defending Internet technology and people had some very Knee jek Non-sensable attacks on me one person evan called me a loser. But Chuk-O did notdefend me like he did the primitivists.Insted he attacted me two if Chuck O is so Nuteral and only responds to good crtitcism how come this was the case.
comment by dadanarchist
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, May 18 2002 @ 01:29 PM CDT
I am really disappointed with the level of criticism coming from those attacking Necrotic State\'s posts. If you disagree, say you disagree, and point out the reasons why. Don\'t resort to slander and misinformation. I don\'t think any of you have seriously thought about, read about or even considered green and primitivist strands of anarchist thought. You can lob the same bomb against me except that I spent years as a die-hard anarcho-syndicalist before opening my theory to new possibilities.

I want to throw out a term here that I think applies very well to the various green and primitivist ideas of a future liberated world. It is \"post-technological.\" I use the prefix \"post\" because it has a set meaning. It essentially means \"after but emerging from.\" It is an idea that moves beyond the idea it spring from, jettisoning those parts which are useless and moldy, and inserting fresh critiques to develop new thoughts on a subject. So, for example: \"post modernism\" draws from modernism and moves beyond it; \"post-punk\" draws from punk but moves beyond it; \"post-industrial\" follows industrialism but moves beyond it. Post implies a moving beyond ideology (and yes it can become ideology too), the end of a rigid and dogmatic adherence to one party line, and the combination of multiple strands of discourse and critique. The end of one world view and one explanation for causality.

When I say that greens and primitivists are post-technological, I mean that most would like to move beyond the industrial worldview. Not abandon it. But move beyond it. What does that mean? It means selectively abandoning and incorporating ideas, technics, organizational methods, etc. from the industrial era, but moving beyond it to embrace new ideas, technics etc. Post-technological means not a complete rejection, a complete negation, but through negation the creation of a new synthesis. Through critically engaging with technology, green/prims hope to move beyond it, to a new world, a new method of organization, and new conceptions of what it means to be human.

The important word here is sustainability. How do we build truly sustainable, non-exploitve communities, that are free of government, hierarchy, sexism, racism, coercion etc.? I fail to understand how this can happen under a centralized, industrial model. Factories (like armies) require bureaucratic management and hierarchy. Only a truly post-industrial model can accomplish anarchist goals. You mention all these unpleasant jobs that would have to still be done after a revolution - garbage collector, sewage treatment plants etc. - but fail to point out that these only exist because cities do. You blindly accept that the current infrastructure and social organization would remain intact after a revolution. This I sincerely doubt - both as it is unanarchistic, unsustainable, and unwanted by 90% of people on Earth. We don\'t have to worry about who would collect garbage because we would recycle, cut down on waste to begin with, and cleverly use it to our purposes. What about dangerous waste? It wouldn\'t be produced in the first place, because you wouldn\'t find anyone to work in a chemical plant, unless you either force them or pay them a lot, neither of which would be anarchist methods of social organization, as they involve force and money.

The population argument is compelling, but misleading. Statistics indicate that if all the already existing arable land in the world were divided up evenly, there would be more than enough to support all the 6 billion people, even without industrial farming. Figures suggest that we the Earth could support up to 10 billion people (its carrying capacity). Also, I failure to understand how producing loads of useless shit like: computers, guns, cars, cell phones, stereos, lawn furniture, satellites, microwave oves, synthetic materials, oil etc., would help to solve hunger and prevent starvation. If we were really concerned about hunger, we\'d ignore industry and set about organizing sustainable communities, so we wouldn\'t have to ship food all over the world just to feed ourselves.

I think the point Necrotic State is trying to make (correct me if I\'m wrong here NS) is that workplace organizing is essential - but not along trade union lines. Workers should organize amongst themselves, for whatever reasons compel them. To go bowling, play baseball, volunteer in the community, read up on the history of labor, confront them boss, sabotage the factory, go to a protest etc. As soon as these tendencies enter a union structure, all energy becomes devoted to one thing: negotiating for better wages, conditions, etc. While thats fine, these negotiations are reformism, plain and simple. And what happens is most unions bog down in this process, lose their militancy, forget the old ideals of taking over the factory, and become yet another method for capitalist/bureaucratic control. Militancy disappears and the whole union becomes a ritual expression of non-existent class consciousness. That\'s why things like workers councils are far more important than unions, organizations with the express purpose of seizing the means of production (and hopefully suppressing production) rather than temporarily incoveniencing management in exchange for a a new coat of gold paint over their chains.

I apologize for the rambling nature of that last post.... It\'s early for me......
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, May 18 2002 @ 05:04 PM CDT
It is not idiotic to argue that work should be abolished. Remember that those of us who are anti-work are arguing against wage slavery and alienated work, not the work that is necessary for basic human survival. I don\'t understand why some of you continue to miss this distinction. Anti-work is not arguing that we should be against growing food, raising children, building houses, and so on. We\'re talking about work in the sense of going to a workplace and getting paid a wage.

The problem with the workerists is that they want to continue capitalism, but with a psuedo-anarchist window dressing. What\'s the point of social revolution if I still have to go to some fucking job! Why should I care if I have input into my wage slavery if I\'m still doing the SAME ALIENATING THINGS AS BEFORE!
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, May 18 2002 @ 05:07 PM CDT
Maybe I\'ll start defending you when you spend some time spelling your words correctly! As everybody knows, I use plenty of technology for anarchist ends. In the current context of our capitalist planet, Internet technology can be very liberatory. But that doesn\'t mean that I would want to have this technology around if the revolution comes. In fact, if a revolution did happen, I would kiss my computer goodbye to do other things. The only reason I use computers, other than to earn a living, is as a means towards radical social change.
comment by Reverend Chuck0
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, May 18 2002 @ 05:11 PM CDT
Necrotic\'s attacks and criticism of workplace organizing are not unfounded. The paradigm of workplace organizing as the main method of radical social change (which critics call \"workerism\") is NOT beyond criticism! Necrotic State has made plenty of good arguments here about alternatives to the old paradigm.

It strikes me as odd that people who say they are working to organize workers would blindly reject criticisms and alternatives. Why?
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, May 18 2002 @ 05:17 PM CDT
\"The reality is that there are lots and lots of jobs that will have to be done after the revolution and which are very unpleasent now.\"

I can agree with that as long as we are talking about work that needs to be done, like growing food, cleaning toilets, building stuff, and so on. You aren\'t making an anarchist argument if you think that we should have \"jobs\" after the revolution. Anarchism is opposed to \"jobs\" and hierarchy. Why would you want to continue wage slavery? An anarchist boss?
comment by Necrotic State
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, May 18 2002 @ 07:50 PM CDT
Thank you, dadanarchist, for effectively summarizing what I\'ve been trying to get across during this discussion. I couldn\'t have done it any better.
comment by Techno Anarchist
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, May 18 2002 @ 10:44 PM CDT
If you are going to be open to new ideas then include techno-anarchist allong with anarcho-primitivist, they both have good crtiques of tecnology. I think the internet should not be abolished I would abolish but improved upon destrutctive technology but not the helpful type. Anarchists must fight for free software and against internet censorship,

by the way spelling is NOT a measure of intelligence!
comment by
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, May 19 2002 @ 12:42 AM CDT
There are plenty of good critiques of technology out there. The primitivists didn\'t invent a thorough critique of technology. For example, look at the work of Marshall McCluhan, Lewis Mumford, Jeremy Rifkin, or Theodore Roszak. Personally, now that I think of it, my critique of technology comes from science fiction, as much as it does from anarchist writers (or the mentioned authors). It seems to me that every \"digital anarchist\" or \"techno-anarchist\" is in favor of people understanding how their tools work. It\'s not a contradiction to be for liberatory computer tech and have a critique of technology at the same time. Putting together anarchist websites might be a positive thing, but sitting in front of a computer all day is just like TV in the sense that one isn\'t getting any exercise.
comment by hpwombat
Authored by: Anonymous on Sunday, May 19 2002 @ 02:26 PM CDT
It would be interesting to use \"6 degrees of separation\" on every technology produced to see how each technological device is connected to exploitive and ecologically unsound practices. I once was working at a garden tool painting plant, and I threw up twice before quitting because of the chemicals they used just to get the paint onto the tool. I still can imagine what that smell is and it turns my stomach.

I once worked at a dry cleaners that paid low wages and exposed you to machines that scalded and irritated your skin and put you in dizzying heat, especially during the summer. Burns were not uncommon, though severe burns were.

I imagine every item produced using industrial technology takes materials that run through at least one or two (if not more) workplaces that have health and environmental problems. However people like their tools to be a green that matches their lawns, and they want their shirts to be straight for that office meeting...decisions, decisions.
comment by Scott
Authored by: Anonymous on Tuesday, May 21 2002 @ 11:58 AM CDT
I haven\'t had time to read every contribution to this debate, but it\'s good to see some anarchists trying to develop a subtle, non-dogmatic approach to trade unions. As for the post-lefties and primitivists, they\'re always interesting to look at from an anthropological perspective!

A phenomenon which is of great importance to this deabte is the revolutionary process in Argentina. Since this process began about a year ago, a number of once-conservative unions appear to have moved a long way to the left - some appear to have taken up revolutionary positions. On the other hand, some Peronist-controlled outfits have played a blatantly reactionary, wrecking role. I don\'t have enough information to make a definitive judgement myself, but what I have seen (on video) and read (on the net) has definitely opened my eyes to the possibility of unions going a lot further in a revolutionary situation than I had thought possible today. Anarchists interested in answering the question of trade unions might want to familiarise themselves with the role of unions in Argentina. A good source (a bit of sifting is required) is the public archive at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Argentina_Solidarity/

Something else worth looking at is the worldwide efforts of the far left to mobilise unions against the War on Terror in Afghanistan and now in Palestine. We need to evaluate how successful these eforts have been, and whether we can improve them. I only know of one general strike against the Afghanistan invasion - it was in Namibia. So far, the only successful effort I know of to rouse unions to take action against Israel has been in Norway, where unions are blockading shipments of Israeli goods. Of course, it\'s early days yet.

Cheers
Scott
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 22 2002 @ 08:50 AM CDT
It\'s not an issue of global distribution, it\'s an issue of resource extraction, pollution, and so on.

Allow me to illustrate:

\"The chip factory stretches longer than two football fields and houses equipment manufactured by more than 100 companies around the world. My computer\'s chips were made in \'clean rooms\' where only one to five particles were present in each cubic foot of air ... my silicon wafer was cleaned with acid, then heated to form a protective layer of silicon dioxide. Workers looking through microscopes used ultraviolet light, light-sensitive chemicals, chemical developers, patterned masks, and some of the most precise machinery ever invented to etch a pattern of minute circuits across the wafer. ... Producing the chips in my computer generated 89 pounds of waste and used 2800 gallons of water. ... Paper-thin layers of Arizona copper were applied to each chip\'s surfac ... After more chemical cleaning, a ship carried my wafer to Malaysia in a box of unbleached Oregon-Douglas fir pulp with shock-absorbing inserts of black polypropylene foam from Japan. ... About 700 different materials and chemicals went into manufacturing my computer; half of these were hazardous. ... Computer manufacturers generated 10 million pounds of toxic waste in 1990, two-thirds less than they did in 1987.\"

There\'s more -- a whole lot more. But this is basically why I and many others (very few of whom would actually be considered \"primitivists\" by any stretch of the imagination) think that manufacture of complex technologies would virtually cease in an anarchist society.

People often think of computers as something you can build in your garage, like Jobs and Wozniak did oh so many years ago. It\'s true that amateurs and entrepreneurs can assemble their own computers, but if anyone thinks that the Anarcho-Geek Collective can manufacture its own silicon chips, then they really don\'t understand the process of computer manufacturing.
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 22 2002 @ 08:51 AM CDT
That quote is from the book \"Stuff: The Secret Lives of Everyday Things,\" (Ryan and Durning, published by Northwest Environment Watch) which I referenced earlier.
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 22 2002 @ 08:55 AM CDT
\"Several people have said that unions are valuable for the simple fact that they have raised the pay in this country for so many workers. Well, that may be true, but what has the effect been on labor, since then? Do we have a militant labor force? Not at all. Quite the opposite in fact.\"

Not to mention the simple, rotten fact that most people think that their benefits were bestowed by the benevolence of capitalism and not won through decades of bloody resistance by unionists.
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 22 2002 @ 08:57 AM CDT
Building a movement against police brutality enables us to also build alternatives to police, which will be needed in the future (much more than collectivized offices filled with alienated laborers). That\'s half the point.
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 22 2002 @ 09:11 AM CDT
one point:

saying that anarchists should probably not focus on workplace organizing is not the same as saying that anarchists should abandon workplace struggles.

if one focuses on an activity, then by definition one participates in that activity to the exclusion of all others.

I think NS was simply trying to say that anarchists should not focus SOLELY on workplace struggle as the single most important area for revolution.

Furthermore ... this has been said 100 times but probably needs to be said again ... a critique of technology and alienated labor (i.e. \"work\") does not necessarily translate to a desire to smash computers, abolish hospitals, destroy vehicles, and so on. Everybody please stop pretending that critics of work are the same as authoritarian primitivists.

I plan to produce a pamphlet on this topic which will be distributed at the NAAG in a few weeks.
comment by not in mourning
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 22 2002 @ 09:12 AM CDT
I don\'t know why all my replies showed up at the bottom instead of immediately after their respective posts.

*sigh*
comment by yusuf
Authored by: Anonymous on Wednesday, May 22 2002 @ 09:44 PM CDT
I agree with anarchocommie.